Osuna traded to the Astros for Giles, Perez, and Paulino

[connorp]

Is David Paulino dead?

[BlueRocky]

Is David Paulino dead?

 

Define dead

[Carlos Danger]

Define dead

 

That made me laugh

[Deadpool]

Giles in 2019: 1.47 ERA, 1.57 FIP, 0.982 WHIP, 13.7 K/9.

 

He should fetch us a nice return this deadline.

 

Or, we could keep an awesome pitcher and use him going forward after extending him... We don't need to move every asset we have.

[Pendleton]

Or, we could keep an awesome pitcher and use him going forward after extending him... We don't need to move every asset we have.

 

Reliever + lack of team control + non contender = sell

[BlueRocky]

It does make sense to trade an asset like Giles when his value is high just due to reliever volatility, but if you can't get anything good for him (A type prospects) then I would encourage a team friendly extension. It's understandable why teams don't want to spend money on elite closers during a rebuilding year but there's an argument Giles is still relatively young, and you might fetch even more for him down the road with greater team control. Extension talks would have to be agreeable for both sides though.

[saskjayfan]

Giles in 2019: 1.47 ERA, 1.57 FIP, 0.982 WHIP, 13.7 K/9.

 

He should fetch us a nice return this deadline.

 

Why do we have to trade everyone? We could actually try extending and keeping a quality player.

[glory]

By the time the Jays are realistically good again, Giles will be in his 30's. With reliever volatility the way it is, an extension would be a risk, especially if we are looking at another bad season or two before becoming good. If there was a chance to seriously contend in 2020, and 2019 was just a bump in the road, then I'd consider an extension, but practically every young player on the roster aside from Vlad either sucks or has struggled badly so far, so it's hard to say what the team's timeline is right now. Biggio is the only prospect in AAA close to ready with Bo injured and Alford s***ing the bed.

 

The Jays are devoid of high end young talent, at least in the upper minors. That's where trading Giles will help. Of course, if the offers are more Drury/McKinney level, then sure keep him and try to extend him. I'm assuming as a closer with amazing numbers, he'd fetch a pretty decent return.

[saskjayfan]

Reliever + lack of team control + non contender = sell

 

He has another year of control. This whole let's compete in 2023 is hot garbage.

[Pendleton]

He has another year of control. This whole let's compete in 2023 is hot garbage.

 

He has just one year of control remaining, and we look pretty damn far from contending. If we were talking about a hitter, it would be a different conversation. Relievers are so damn volatile, sell high.

[Key22]

My concern with trading pitching is that the team actually needs pitching going forward - it's not like this team has 5 aces in the minors ready to come up here. We have ONE quality top of the rotation pitching prospect who is still a Maybe in Nate Pearson. And that's it. And we are considered a top 3 farm system at that!

 

It's not like Stroman and Giles are old geezers. Yes if you get a top tier return - for each great but they can't miss on that return.

 

They gave Grichuk a 5 year deal so they have established that they're willing to give a soon to be 28 year old guy a 5 year contract. Stroman just turned 28 and Giles is 28. If the idea is you will be a contender in 3 years (2021) having quality veterans around will be a good thing. The Jays can't replace EVERYONE through the farms system - if they could then why sign the decent but heavily flawed Randal Grichuck for 5 years?

 

Giles won't be traded until the compensation is dropped for Kimbral in June - he would be a team's first choice as it's just money at that point. I understand the prospects argument but very few of them work out. And the ones who do often take a long time. Everyone keeps touting the Jays farm and prospects but let's see the actual MLB on field results. Lourdes Gurriel Jr, Jansen, Guerrero, Luciano, Tellez, McKinney etc. I mean they haven't exactly come in and looked like stars that will go toe to toe with the position players on Boston and New York. Guerrero looked like that for 1 game out of 15. So a sliver of hope - albeit tempered by the fact that he crushed two bums.

[Spanky99]

Reading through this thread was comedic and full blown aids at the same time.

[BlueRocky]

The rotation issue is not an easy problem to solve. Much of this rebuild and Shapiro & Atkins tenure will ride on how they build this rotation and develop pitching depth during the Vlad jr timeline.

 

Developing internally, they possibly have one front of the rotation guy, a bunch of backend/AAAA guys, a slew of questionable bullpen arms, and two kids in Kloffenstein and Pardinho. This is not good if the ultimate goal is to compete in the AL East within 3-5 years. They need to pray that Pearson is a stud and another surprise arm comes into play that is solidly at least a mid-rotation starter. Hopefully more than one.

 

Aside from Kloff and Pardinho, there has to be another guy that doesn’t require 5 years of development time and factoring in TJs risks. The only other arms I could think of right now are Patrick Murphy (a long shot, and long list of injury history), and possibly Merryweather or Sopko. But realistically if any of them become even a 4th starter we would be celebrating with backflips. There’s too much volatility there, injury history, and question marks to be banking your rebuild on.

 

That aside, front office needs to acquire the talent missing from outside the org, but their only trade chips worth anything is Giles, Stroman, and Sanchez.

 

That or pony up significant money and persuade top tier free agents in their early 30s to sign a lucative deal here and hope no limbs require significant surgery while Shatkins is still in office. It’s understandable why significant risks like this are usually avoided (e.g. David Price extension). You can occasionally hit on guys like Marco Estrada and Matt Shoemaker, and they’d probably have to get lucky like that one way or another. But you can’t really predict or plan for those types of outcomes.

 

But it’s also easy to say draft all bats now and buy arms later when we’re ready to compete. It’s a lot easier in theory and difficult to execute in practice.

 

I’m not sure how they plan to rebuild this rotation from the ground up if we don’t hit on the returns from those three assets or they don’t get extended. Poorly handled, this could be another Happ, Donaldson, Martin, and Tulo situation where we don’t walk away with much, which prolongs the rebuild even further. It’s quite a tricky situation tbh.

Edited May 17, 2019 by BlueRocky

[Boxcar]

The rotation issue is not an easy problem to solve. Much of this rebuild and Shapiro & Atkins tenure will ride on how they build this rotation and develop pitching depth during the Vlad jr timeline.

 

Developing internally, they possibly have one front of the rotation guy, a bunch of backend/AAAA guys, a slew of questionable bullpen arms, and two kids in Kloffenstein and Pardinho. This is not good if the ultimate goal is to compete in the AL East within 3-5 years. They need to pray that Pearson is a stud and another surprise arm comes into play that is solidly at least a mid-rotation starter. Hopefully more than one.

 

Aside from Kloff and Pardinho, there has to be another guy that doesn’t require 5 years of development time and factoring in TJs risks. The only other arms I could think of right now are Patrick Murphy (a long shot, and long list of injury history), and possibly Merryweather or Sopko. But realistically if any of them become even a 4th starter we would be celebrating with backflips. There’s too much volatility there, injury history, and question marks to be banking your rebuild on.

 

That aside, front office needs to acquire the talent missing from outside the org, but their only trade chips worth anything is Giles, Stroman, and Sanchez.

 

That or pony up significant money and persuade top tier free agents in their early 30s to sign a lucative deal here and hope no limbs require significant surgery while Shatkins is still in office. It’s understandable why significant risks like this are usually avoided (e.g. David Price extension). You can occasionally hit on guys like Marco Estrada and Matt Shoemaker, and they’d probably have to get lucky like that one way or another. But you can’t really predict or plan for those types of outcomes.

 

But it’s also easy to say draft all bats now and buy arms later when we’re ready to compete. It’s a lot easier in theory and difficult to execute in practice.

 

I’m not sure how they plan to rebuild this rotation from the ground up if we don’t hit on the returns from those three assets or they don’t get extended. Poorly handled, this could be another Happ, Donaldson, Martin, and Tulo situation where we don’t walk away with much, which prolongs the rebuild even further. It’s quite a tricky situation tbh.

 

Plenty of time to audition guys this year. We'll get to see what's up with Merryweather, Sopko, Thornton, etc. We'll also have Shoe next year. I don't think the rotation situation is THAT dire.

[Todd Van Anus]

I think we have some 3/4 type starting pitchers in the hopper. The challenge will be developing/acquiring those elite ace type starters. We almost had on in Flaherty, but Rogers nixed that trade for Donaldson.

[Boxcar]

I think we have some 3/4 type starting pitchers in the hopper. The challenge will be developing/acquiring those elite ace type starters. We almost had on in Flaherty, but Rogers nixed that trade for Donaldson.

 

I'd definitely be extending Stroman, a 1-2 of him and Pearson should be perfectly adequate. Then there are a bunch of intriguing guys to fill out the rest of the staff and we can always supplement with a mid tier FA.

 

I just really want to see Sanchez traded for literally anything.

[Todd Van Anus]

In my opinion, I'd be trading Stroman and Sanchez. I think Stroman is 100% gone.

[Boxcar]

In my opinion, I'd be trading Stroman and Sanchez. I think Stroman is 100% gone.

 

He wants to stay and would probably be somewhat affordable and we don't have many guys in the pipe with the potential to be as good as he is. If we don't extend him, we'd have to sign someone else anyway.

[Todd Van Anus]

He wants to stay and would probably be somewhat affordable and we don't have many guys in the pipe with the potential to be as good as he is. If we don't extend him, we'd have to sign someone else anyway.

Just because he wants to stay doesn't mean management wants him. I'll be shocked is Stroman is a Blue Jay long term.

[Ray]

He wants to stay and would probably be somewhat affordable and we don't have many guys in the pipe with the potential to be as good as he is. If we don't extend him, we'd have to sign someone else anyway.

 

The key is the affordable part. If he wants something similar to what Kyle Hendricks got, fine. They're both similar ages and have been close enough in value since their debuts. I don't really see Stroman settling for that though.

 

I think this front office will want to wait to see what teams are going to offer though. If the Padres are desperate enough to compete and are offering 2 good close to ready arms, it'll be hard to turn that down.

[Todd Van Anus]

I think the front office is turned off by Stroman's attitude. I think he's gone no matter what.

[Spanky99]

I think the front office is turned off by Stroman's attitude. I think he's gone no matter what.

 

lol

[glory]

I hope Stroman is extended, and he should be, but I agree I think he's going to be traded. Too much smoke for there to be no fire.

 

Sanchez should not be extended (and won't want to with Boras), so he can be traded whenever.

[GreekFatAss]

Realistically speaking, how many good 30 year old starting pitchers are there that deserve 5 year commitments? Pitching is a young man's game and we are probably better off flipping them for younger arms.

[Boxcar]

Realistically speaking, how many good 30 year old starting pitchers are there that deserve 5 year commitments? Pitching is a young man's game and we are probably better off flipping them for younger arms.

 

Disagree. Age is nearly irrelevant. There's no point in paying a premium for younger arms given the injury risks these days.

[BlueRocky]

Realistically speaking, how many good 30 year old starting pitchers are there that deserve 5 year commitments? Pitching is a young man's game and we are probably better off flipping them for younger arms.

 

The FA market has been really down, just looking at this past off-season the trend isn’t getting any better if you’re 30.

Pitchers that would’ve got nine figure offers in the past are looking at short term and team friendly extensions. Slight positive WAR vets can be had for literally peanuts.

 

It’s a bit shocking considering the draft pick comp now is only a late second rounder (for most teams) and orgs still don’t want to pony up for a pitcher like Kimbrel or Keuchel. Contracts use to be much more lucrative and 1st rounders were given up for much lesser veterans.

 

My point is, when the market looks like Eovaldi getting $68/4 at 29, Happ at $34/2 at 36, Charlie Morton $30/2 at 35, Lance Lynn $30/3 at 32, Sabathia at $8/1 at 38

 

It’s probably not too difficult to sign some short term stop gaps, and not that expensive to do so. We also have like no payroll committments moving forward weighing down on the ledger. But to find a front of the rotation starter to come here is a tall order, that guy is probably already locked up, extended, or going to NY/BOS before even picking up our phone calls

[saskjayfan]

Plenty of time to audition guys this year. We'll get to see what's up with Merryweather, Sopko, Thornton, etc. We'll also have Shoe next year. I don't think the rotation situation is THAT dire.

 

Merryewather, sopko and Thornton are the pitching equivalents of Drury, Mckinney and Gurriel. The only potential top tier pitcher we have is Pearson. Borucki looks like he could be a 2 or 3, but there's performance and injury risk with all young pitchers. The rotation looks pretty dire for 2020 if we trade stroman and are relying on Shoemaker who has some major injury concerns, Borucki, a bunch of young number 5s and whatever number 5s we sign on the cheap. Pearson likely up early next year, but that's still not a rotation that can compete for anything.

[saskjayfan]

The FA market has been really down, just looking at this past off-season the trend isn’t getting any better if you’re 30.

Pitchers that would’ve got nine figure offers in the past are looking at short term and team friendly extensions. Slight positive WAR vets can be had for literally peanuts.

 

It’s a bit shocking considering the draft pick comp now is only a late second rounder (for most teams) and orgs still don’t want to pony up for a pitcher like Kimbrel or Keuchel. Contracts use to be much more lucrative and 1st rounders were given up for much lesser veterans.

 

My point is, when the market looks like Eovaldi getting $68/4 at 29, Happ at $34/2 at 36, Charlie Morton $30/2 at 35, Lance Lynn $30/3 at 32, Sabathia at $8/1 at 38

 

It’s probably not too difficult to sign some short term stop gaps, and not that expensive to do so. We also have like no payroll committments moving forward weighing down on the ledger. But to find a front of the rotation starter to come here is a tall order, that guy is probably already locked up, extended, or going to NY/BOS before even picking up our phone calls

 

Morton was an amazing signing for the Rays. He will likely be a great signing in 2 years if he still wants to play.

[Spanky99]

Merryewather, sopko and Thornton are the pitching equivalents of Drury, Mckinney and Gurriel. The only potential top tier pitcher we have is Pearson. Borucki looks like he could be a 2 or 3, but there's performance and injury risk with all young pitchers. The rotation looks pretty dire for 2020 if we trade stroman and are relying on Shoemaker who has some major injury concerns, Borucki, a bunch of young number 5s and whatever number 5s we sign on the cheap. Pearson likely up early next year, but that's still not a rotation that can compete for anything.

 

lulz

[saskjayfan]

lulz

 

 

 

What's so funny. I might be a bit optimistic on Borucki, mostly because of his uptick in velocity in spring training, maybe a 3 or 4 might be more realistic. We have a stable of guys who's upside is a 4 or a 5....you need a handful of guys who the upside of 2 to get 1 to pan out. Our pitching depth in the minors sucks. Pearson's the only real high upside guy. We're going to have to trade or sign guys via free agency if we have any shot of competing with Vlad on our team.