Toronto Blue Jays Rebuilding Thread

[jays_fever]

A LOT of top prospects have been killing the game in the past 5 years so I think people may have the wrong idea when it comes to prospect success/bust rate.

 

It seems to be correcting itself though with Swanson, Schwarber, Tim Anderson, etc

[John_Havok]

So no then.

 

I mean fine...payroll goes down during a rebuild? No s*** Sherlock. Retool/rebuild, sell off the vets, drop the payroll (to offset the lost revenue), build a sustainable winner. I don't understand why this isn't the obvious answer. Roger's doesn't lose money and the FO gets to build their own team, that hopefully is built for long term success.

 

You could argue they are concerned the fans won't return, but recent data suggest that isn't true. The only other factor I see is the Jays help solidify and sell the Rogers brand? Losing would hurt the corporate brand? I'd love to know.

 

The only thing a bad Jays team does to Rogers is takes away some eyeballs from their free advertising they flood the broadcasts with.

[glory]

The only argument against rebuilding would be that nobody wants our s*** (Jose, Estrada, Liriano, Tulo, Martin, Morales, etc), or we would be selling real low and not maximizing proper value (JD). It's starting to look like trading Stroman, Sanchez, and Osuna is the only real way of rebuilding, and you can probably move them next year at this time and not lose out on much value.

 

Otherwise, I can't imagine sitting through another season like this next year. This one is bad enough and it's barely half way done.

[Jimcanuck]

The only argument against rebuilding would be that nobody wants our s*** (Jose, Estrada, Liriano, Tulo, Martin, Morales, etc), or we would be selling real low and not maximizing proper value (JD). It's starting to look like trading Stroman, Sanchez, and Osuna is the only real way of rebuilding, and you can probably move them next year at this time and not lose out on much value.

 

Otherwise, I can't imagine sitting through another season like this next year. This one is bad enough and it's barely half way done.

 

JD is worth more now than he would be in the offseason or next summer. Jays need some additional pitching prospects and JD certainly will provide that.

[L54]

JD is worth more now than he would be in the offseason or next summer. Jays need some additional pitching prospects and JD certainly will provide that.

 

No thanks on pitching prospects. If they're going to trade JD (or Stroman/Sanchez which I doubt) I want position prospects back. Arms will break your heart.

[Orgfiller]

No thanks on pitching prospects. If they're going to trade JD (or Stroman/Sanchez which I doubt) I want position prospects back. Arms will break your heart.

 

This man knows what's up.

[Jimcanuck]

Stro, Sanchy, Osuna ain't breaking my heart

 

Like it or not, you need pitching to win WS

[L54]

Top 5 Prospect Pitchers from BA:

 

2016: Urias (dead), Giolito (sux), Reyes (TJS), Snell (BB's), Matz (not throwing the Warthen slider so he can make some money)

2015: Giolito, Urias, Thor (hurt but still a boss), Rodon (hurt but I still like), Glasnow (sux)

2014: Tanaka (not really a prospect but good), Bradley (Archie), Walker (decent), J. Gray (decent), Bundy ( )

[L54]

Stro, Sanchy, Osuna ain't breaking my heart

 

Like it or not, you need pitching to win WS

 

Yes, just like you need hitters too. Pretty tough to win a WS with two starters and a closer.

[Orgfiller]

I like how Archie Bradley is so despicable to you that you can only describe his performance as a starter by pointing out his first name.

[L54]

I like how Archie Bradley is so despicable to you that you can only describe his performance as a starter by pointing out his first name.

 

He's been fantastic out of the pen, but if the return on JD was a reliever (albeit an excellent one so far) I would not be thrilled.

[burlingtonbandit]

You need a foundation of young position players. Cubs, Astros, Red Sox, Dodgers, Indians all have it. I'd rather that than the Mets or Braves with their pitching.

[Jimcanuck]

You need a foundation of young position players. Cubs, Astros, Red Sox, Dodgers, Indians all have it. I'd rather that than the Mets or Braves with their pitching.

 

For sure. But Jays will either have to pay through nose to sign FA pitchers or develop at least a few. 2nd option is generally more efficient. Unless one is OK with losing JD for nothing.

[Brownie19]

"Matz (not throwing the Warthen slider so he can make some money)"

 

Is his slider considered one of the factors for the injuries to Thor, Matz, deGrom, Harvey, etc.?

[Spanky99]

"Matz (not throwing the Warthen slider so he can make some money)"

 

Is his slider considered one of the factors for the injuries to Thor, Matz, deGrom, Harvey, etc.?

 

That seems to be what he's implying. Now I'm interested, I cant find anything on blame of the slider to their pitchers. Well there's lots out there, just nothing credible but theory.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Spanky99

[L54]

"Matz (not throwing the Warthen slider so he can make some money)"

 

Is his slider considered one of the factors for the injuries to Thor, Matz, deGrom, Harvey, etc.?

 

No I don't think the slider is responsible for the injuries of Syndergaard or Harvey. I do believe Matz has stopped throwing his slider in an effort to stay on the field. Throwing the slider less and 2mph slower (which is probably another conscious decision) has resulted in a drop in SwStr%, K/9 and groundball rates. Not a recipe for success. He's also apparently on record as saying he wants to pitch to more contact.

 

It's like a little birdie whispered in his ear that if you can't stay on the field you'll never get paid.

[Brownie19]

No I don't think the slider is responsible for the injuries of Syndergaard or Harvey. I do believe Matz has stopped throwing his slider in an effort to stay on the field. Throwing the slider less and 2mph slower (which is probably another conscious decision) has resulted in a drop in SwStr%, K/9 and groundball rates. Not a recipe for success. He's also apparently on record as saying he wants to pitch to more contact.

 

It's like a little birdie whispered in his ear that if you can't stay on the field you'll never get paid.

 

Interesting. He probably looks at Mike Leake signing a $80M/5 year deal and says - yes please.

[CanuckofChicago]

Question. What is wrong with a SP that focuses on pitching to contact rather than trying to strike everyone out? I am saying avoid the strikeout altogether, but wouldn't we want our SP's to stay in the game longer? That is why I did not understand all the mockery Stroman got when he said he wanted to focused on pitching to contact.

[John_Havok]

Question. What is wrong with a SP that focuses on pitching to contact rather than trying to strike everyone out? I am saying avoid the strikeout altogether, but wouldn't we want our SP's to stay in the game longer? That is why I did not understand all the mockery Stroman got when he said he wanted to focused on pitching to contact.

 

Because allowing the batter's to hit your pitches as an intention... is kinda dumb. It's fairly proven that managing weak contact isn't exactly a repeatable skill

[HERPDERP]

Question. What is wrong with a SP that focuses on pitching to contact rather than trying to strike everyone out? I am saying avoid the strikeout altogether, but wouldn't we want our SP's to stay in the game longer? That is why I did not understand all the mockery Stroman got when he said he wanted to focused on pitching to contact.

 

The ideal pitcher is the guy who pitches to contact but can also strike people out when needed. Roy Halladay was the type of guy who could do that. He'd keep throwing you cutters and sinkers, but if he needed a strikeout he'd bring up the nasty curveballs.

 

The problem with contact pitchers is that you have to rely on the defense plus the probability that the ball can still slip past defenders for a base hit.

 

At least with strikeouts there are less factors in play to get the out

[Brownie19]

Question. What is wrong with a SP that focuses on pitching to contact rather than trying to strike everyone out? I am saying avoid the strikeout altogether, but wouldn't we want our SP's to stay in the game longer? That is why I did not understand all the mockery Stroman got when he said he wanted to focused on pitching to contact.

 

There is a lot more talent in bullpens now than ever before. The need for starters to "go deep" is not as necessary for success as it was in 10-20 years ago. The moto always used to be "work the starter and get him out early so you can prey on the bullpen". Look at the yankees now. You want to knock CC out early so you can face:

 

Green

Kahnle

Robertson

Betances

Chapman

 

I don't think so. In some cases, you no longer need a starter to get through a lineup 3 times - especially when the stats suggest the starters effectiveness the 3rd time through significantly drops.

[L54]

Interesting. He probably looks at Mike Leake signing a $80M/5 year deal and says - yes please.

 

Yup. It looks like he's sacrificing his slider to the baseball gods for a chance to stay healthy.

[Terminator]

There is a lot more talent in bullpens now than ever before. The need for starters to "go deep" is not as necessary for success as it was in 10-20 years ago. The moto always used to be "work the starter and get him out early so you can prey on the bullpen". Look at the yankees now. You want to knock CC out early so you can face:

 

Green

Kahnle

Robertson

Betances

Chapman

 

I don't think so. In some cases, you no longer need a starter to get through a lineup 3 times - especially when the stats suggest the starters effectiveness the 3rd time through significantly drops.

 

Especially in the playoffs with all the off days. It's why Gibby never should have protested Bauer's finger because once he did we had to go against their ridiculous bullpen.

[justafan]

From Scott Mitchell - TSN. The Jays have a core of 3 good starters under contract. The issue remains to be the corner out fielders. I think Pompey and DS Jr (if he learns to catch) could do very well.

 

I have to agree that this team does not need to be blown up. Too bad Travis is injured (all the time it seems). I think Biagini, Barnes, Teppera and Osuna are quite good.

 

While we all like JD, time is ticking. I don't think it is possible for him to live up to his MVP year which is what we want. Should be able to get something decent. Pearce could also fetch something.

 

Money should be available as well. DFA that farce in RF, good bye to Liriano and Estrada and there will be plenty of money. Oh ya, get rid of Tulo, Martin and Morales. These guys are dead money.

 

So, Jays need Maile to step up, a SP that burns innings and another starter. Outfield corners are in the system.

[Brownie19]

From Scott Mitchell - TSN. The Jays have a core of 3 good starters under contract. The issue remains to be the corner out fielders. I think Pompey and DS Jr (if he learns to catch) could do very well.

 

I have to agree that this team does not need to be blown up. Too bad Travis is injured (all the time it seems). I think Biagini, Barnes, Teppera and Osuna are quite good.

 

While we all like JD, time is ticking. I don't think it is possible for him to live up to his MVP year which is what we want. Should be able to get something decent. Pearce could also fetch something.

 

Money should be available as well. DFA that farce in RF, good bye to Liriano and Estrada and there will be plenty of money. Oh ya, get rid of Tulo, Martin and Morales. These guys are dead money.

 

So, Jays need Maile to step up, a SP that burns innings and another starter. Outfield corners are in the system.

 

Sorry sir, but I think you just went full retard.

[L54]

From Scott Mitchell - TSN. The Jays have a core of 3 good starters under contract. The issue remains to be the corner out fielders. I think Pompey and DS Jr (if he learns to catch) could do very well.

 

I have to agree that this team does not need to be blown up. Too bad Travis is injured (all the time it seems). I think Biagini, Barnes, Teppera and Osuna are quite good.

 

While we all like JD, time is ticking. I don't think it is possible for him to live up to his MVP year which is what we want. Should be able to get something decent. Pearce could also fetch something.

 

Money should be available as well. DFA that farce in RF, good bye to Liriano and Estrada and there will be plenty of money. Oh ya, get rid of Tulo, Martin and Morales. These guys are dead money.

 

So, Jays need Maile to step up, a SP that burns innings and another starter. Outfield corners are in the system.

 

What is this?

[justafan]

Just partial. Never go full!

 

Sorry sir, but I think you just went full retard.

[justafan]

What don't you like?

 

What is this?

[LGBJ29]

From Scott Mitchell - TSN. The Jays have a core of 3 good starters under contract. The issue remains to be the corner out fielders. I think Pompey and DS Jr (if he learns to catch) could do very well.

 

I have to agree that this team does not need to be blown up. Too bad Travis is injured (all the time it seems). I think Biagini, Barnes, Teppera and Osuna are quite good.

 

While we all like JD, time is ticking. I don't think it is possible for him to live up to his MVP year which is what we want. Should be able to get something decent. Pearce could also fetch something.

 

Money should be available as well. DFA that farce in RF, good bye to Liriano and Estrada and there will be plenty of money. Oh ya, get rid of Tulo, Martin and Morales. These guys are dead money.

 

So, Jays need Maile to step up, a SP that burns innings and another starter. Outfield corners are in the system.

 

 

[Spanky99]

What is this?

 

Scott Mitchells take, lol.