General 2017 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Jimcanuck]

The move was widely panned because it was 2 top 30 prospects for a pitcher coming off their best season ever (and really was only under contract for 1 more year from the Mets point of view on things. This would be paying under market value for a guy that had the worst season of their career. If the Jays believe that Cutch is a 3.5 win player as he's projected for (remember that AA was trading essentially for a guy that was a 5 win player that he said he thought would get even better) it's probably a bargain to get him for a single prospect.

 

Comparable trade for an OF which is projected for 3.5 wins and two years left on their contract would be

Upton from the Braves to the Padres for a top 50 spect (Fried) a top 100 prospect (Jace Peterson) and two top 200 prospects (Smith and other Peterson). Padres were thought to get a steal in that deal. But Upton is younger and not coming off a bad season so we'll ignore that one.

 

1.5 years of Cespedes (who would have been projected as much lower than Cutch) was traded for a pitcher having a Cy Young season (Lester), and then was traded again for future Cy Young award winner (Porcello) who had averaged over 2 fWAR at age 26. Finally was dealt with 1 year left on his contract for Top 50 prospect (who went on to win rookie of the year).

 

Hunter Pence with 2.5 years left on his contract was traded for a top 75 prospect (Cosart), a top 40 prospect (Singleton), And a 17 year old prospect who was playing in low A.

 

If Vlad is the only big piece in the deal it's about what can be expected (or lower) for two years of an OF projected around where Cutch is. It's more what do you think Cutch will be. But if Vlad Jr. wasn't a Jr. and just a really high priced international signee who had a good debut, I don't think there would be the same fight back.

 

It's not just the name/bloodline, its what he did as a 17 yr old in his first professional year. For a guy on the wrong side of 30, who becomes a UFA after 2018?

[Spanky99]

It's not just the name/bloodline, its what he did as a 17 yr old in his first professional year. For a guy on the wrong side of 30, who becomes a UFA after 2018?

 

Wrong side of 30 isn't just turned 30 this past October. It's nearing 35 or later... mmmmkay! FWIW... I'm on the fence.

[TheHurl]

It's not just the name/bloodline, its what he did as a 17 yr old in his first professional year. For a guy on the wrong side of 30, who becomes a UFA after 2018?

 

Just a list of similar seasons at that age (purely looking at wRC+).

 

Nomar Mazara

Jhailyn Ortiz

Wander Javier (super small sample size because of injury)

Ronald Guzman

Miguel Sano

Gary Sanchez

Starling Heredia

Rafael Rodriguez

Johnathan Sierra

Joel Guzman

Gilberto Celestino

Nelson Gomez

Suely Matias

Phillips Castillo

 

That's just by searching the highest International bonuses. I like Vlad Jr. a lot. The K-Rate super impresses me. But there is nothing yet that leads us to believe he's an untradeable generational talent. His name is part of the helium on the hype.

 

Again perception plays a role. When the Dickey trade happened there was positive thoughts about the team (falsely)...right now it seems like it would be a desperation move based on public/media perception of where the team is. Opinion of Vlad Jr is less of a factor at this point IMO. Opinion of what Cutch will be I can completely buy as a reason not to do the deal.

[Jimcanuck]

Wrong side of 30 isn't just turned 30 this past October. It's nearing 35 or later... mmmmkay! FWIW... I'm on the fence.

 

Wrong again mate! Wrong side of 30 means anyone older than 30.

[Spanky99]

Wrong again mate! Wrong side of 30 means anyone older than 30.

 

O RLY? Colour me surprised!

[Jimcanuck]

Just a list of similar seasons at that age (purely looking at wRC+).

 

Nomar Mazara

Jhailyn Ortiz

Wander Javier (super small sample size because of injury)

Ronald Guzman

Miguel Sano

Gary Sanchez

Starling Heredia

Rafael Rodriguez

Johnathan Sierra

Joel Guzman

Gilberto Celestino

Nelson Gomez

Suely Matias

Phillips Castillo

 

That's just by searching the highest International bonuses. I like Vlad Jr. a lot. The K-Rate super impresses me. But there is nothing yet that leads us to believe he's an untradeable generational talent. His name is part of the helium on the hype.

 

Again perception plays a role. When the Dickey trade happened there was positive thoughts about the team (falsely)...right now it seems like it would be a desperation move based on public/media perception of where the team is. Opinion of Vlad Jr is less of a factor at this point IMO. Opinion of what Cutch will be I can completely buy as a reason not to do the deal.

 

Fair enough. As I said earlier, getting Cutch elevates the team to 2nd tier of contenders, still behind a fair number of teams - and at $14M leaves little room for other additions based on what I know of the budget.

 

This team needs to adopt the 'long view', IMO.

[L54]

So he sucked last year because....

 

 

Edit: in terms to adjusting to 95 mph fastballs. He doesn't have the superstar hit tool anymore and it's obvious

 

You don't have to like the idea of trading Vlad Jr. for Cutch. Hell, I could make a decent argument not to (but I won't because I would do it straight up). But your reasoning behind it being that he might not even be a replacement level player moving forward because he would have to adjust to the Rick Porcello's of the world is egregious.

 

You're certainly entitled to an opinion, but when your opinion is based off of foolishness it loses all credibility.

[burlingtonbandit]

Spending time on a possible Cutch for Vlad deal straight up seems like a useless exercise. There has been nothing to suggest Toronto's FO is willing to make a prospect deal like this. And Pittsburgh is going to want a lot more than just Vlad Jr. straight up.

[Daniel Labude]

You don't have to like the idea of trading Vlad Jr. for Cutch. Hell, I could make a decent argument not to (but I won't because I would do it straight up). But your reasoning behind it being that he might not even be a replacement level player moving forward because he would have to adjust to the Rick Porcello's of the world is egregious.

 

You're certainly entitled to an opinion, but when your opinion is based off of foolishness it loses all credibility.

 

I wasn't meaning that is why he would be replacement level...I was just pointing out that on top of how bad he was this year changing leagues will add another adjustment. The types of pitchers and quality of pitchers don't mean much, but how you are pitched to does change from NL to AL. Also, being less familiar with a certain pitcher does make a difference...is it a big difference, no, but if he doesn't improve on last season he could be dipping further below where he was. Changing leagues will have like a 1% impact on him and might go away fairly quickly.

 

I wouldn't do the trade first of all because even when he was good I just didn't like McCutchen and 2nd...Vlad Jr will be more valuable over the length of his contract vs the 2 yrs from Cutch.

[Spanky99]

I wasn't meaning that is why he would be replacement level...I was just pointing out that on top of how bad he was this year changing leagues will add another adjustment. The types of pitchers and quality of pitchers don't mean much, but how you are pitched to does change from NL to AL. Also, being less familiar with a certain pitcher does make a difference...is it a big difference, no, but if he doesn't improve on last season he could be dipping further below where he was. Changing leagues will have like a 1% impact on him and might go away fairly quickly.

 

I wouldn't do the trade first of all because even when he was good I just didn't like McCutchen and 2nd...Vlad Jr will be more valuable over the length of his contract vs the 2 yrs from Cutch.

 

Sounds a lot more sensible then your first post, pressure changed this. Stop it.

[Ray]

lol Vlad is a 17-year old who had a great season in Rookie ball of all things. Calm down with the prospect overhype. And I like Vlad.

 

Just for the record, I wouldn't trade Vlad anyways, nor do I think this Front Office is going to because

 

A) We're clearly not going all-in for 2017, and its not like McCutchen puts us over the top or anything. If this was 2015 or pre-2016 season, I would've traded for Cutch in a heartbeat because we still had Edwin and Bautista and Cutch would've been worth it for going all in. Yeah we need 1-2 outfielders pretty badly, but there are still ways to address our outfield.

 

Pirates are probably gonna wait until the trade deadline to flip Cutch since he'll likely bounce back and be more valuable. Get the sense the Pirates front office is just seeing what they can get for Cutch as a floor. He can't be worse than he was last season.

[Brownie19]

But there is nothing yet that leads us to believe he's an untradeable generational talent. His name is part of the helium on the hype.

 

 

But what about those scouts who reported the ball "sounds" different coming off his bat?

[jays_fever]

lol Vlad is a 17-year old who had a great season in Rookie ball of all things. Calm down with the prospect overhype. And I like Vlad.

 

Just for the record, I wouldn't trade Vlad anyways, nor do I think this Front Office is going to because

 

A) We're clearly not going all-in for 2017, and its not like McCutchen puts us over the top or anything. If this was 2015 or pre-2016 season, I would've traded for Cutch in a heartbeat because we still had Edwin and Bautista and Cutch would've been worth it for going all in. Yeah we need 1-2 outfielders pretty badly, but there are still ways to address our outfield.

 

Pirates are probably gonna wait until the trade deadline to flip Cutch since he'll likely bounce back and be more valuable. Get the sense the Pirates front office is just seeing what they can get for Cutch as a floor. He can't be worse than he was last season.

 

Cutch puts us back in the wild card hunt and playoffs should always be the goal for a team that already has pieces in play to make it happen. Not trading Vlad JR for cutch is beyond ridiculous lol. The deal diddnt get done because of the extra pieces that would have been had to be included as well..not because the front office loves Vlad JR that much

[Ray]

Cutch puts us back in the wild card hunt and playoffs should always be the goal for a team that already has pieces in play to make it happen. Not trading Vlad JR for cutch is beyond ridiculous lol. The deal diddnt get done because of the extra pieces that would have been had to be included as well..not because the front office loves Vlad JR that much

 

That's the thing. It'll take a lot more than just Vlad to get this deal done. We're not going to get McCutchen with the main piece being someone who's 4-5 years away from reaching the majors, and literally just had half a good season. They're gonna want a haul that probably won't be worth it.

[HERPDERP]

 

why am I only hearing about this the day of the event? :/

[jerb]

 

Alex Seixeiro Verified account

‏@alexfan590

Aaron Sanchez on @timandsid: End of the year, I felt a little fatigued but nothing crazy. Working out now, I've gained 16 lbs. #BlueJays

[Orgfiller]

Aaron Sanchez continues setting unrealistic body standards for men.

[Spanky99]

Aaron Sanchez continues setting unrealistic body standards for men.

 

lol

[Terminator]

http://i.imgur.com/J0miKME.jpg

 

This is the ideal male body. You may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like.

[Spanky99]

http://i.imgur.com/J0miKME.jpg

 

This is the ideal male body. You may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like.

 

lol... at the Stroman split. Plus, since that pic, he's gained 41 Lbs of muscle, bro!

[King]

Does anyone remember the Jimmy Paredes era?

[glory]

 

Alex Seixeiro Verified account

‏@alexfan590

Aaron Sanchez on @timandsid: End of the year, I felt a little fatigued but nothing crazy. Working out now, I've gained 16 lbs. #BlueJays

 

All muscle, bro.

[King]

Does anyone remember the Jimmy Paredes era?

Buck and Pat hyped him up to be a "sparkplug" and someone to ignite the offense. He's a career 77 wRC+ hitter. And absolutely terrible defensively.

[HERPDERP]

Looks like SRF/Greene is the reason between the rift between Sanchez and Stroman

 

"Reid-Foley pointed to gains made in his focus and routine as the primary progress point for him during a strong season, similar to Greene, who has also packed on 16 pounds of muscle since last spring while following the same program ace righty Aaron Sanchez used last winter.

 

"It’s been fun because progress is addicting, seeing yourself make gains in areas that have always been difficult for me, because I’ve always been very skinny and lanky and tall," says Greene, who’s up to 204 pounds. "Just working with Aaron, too, the kid is forcing food down my mouth and we’re getting after it together."

[Angrioter]

Looks like SRF/Greene is the reason between the rift between Sanchez and Stroman

 

"Reid-Foley pointed to gains made in his focus and routine as the primary progress point for him during a strong season, similar to Greene, who has also packed on 16 pounds of muscle since last spring while following the same program ace righty Aaron Sanchez used last winter.

 

"It’s been fun because progress is addicting, seeing yourself make gains in areas that have always been difficult for me, because I’ve always been very skinny and lanky and tall," says Greene, who’s up to 204 pounds. "Just working with Aaron, too, the kid is forcing food down my mouth and we’re getting after it together."

 

Aaron and StroShow aren't BBF anymore?

 

What happened between they both?

[Brownie19]

Here's hoping Connor Greene turns things around this year and makes the next step.

[KingKat]

Aaron and StroShow aren't BBF anymore?

 

What happened between they both?

 

Read this:

[Angrioter]

Read this:

 

Waoo

 

Maybe Stroman is so much intense and Sanchez wanted some peace in his life

[HERPDERP]

maybe Sanchez is just racist

[jerb]

 

Ben Nicholson-Smith Verified account 

‏@bnicholsonsmith

#BlueJays say they'll unveil a new alternate uniform for the 2017 season on Friday