Encarnacion - Pay this man his money

[Maahfaace]

We also lose the game if it wasn't for this play (We'd be down 3-1 instead of 2-1 after the next pitch). The defense last night was on point. When looking back it was one of the best games we've played all year on defense & pitching alone.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/7/0/8/204985708/100416_pillarcatchgif_med_l0mira9v.gif

 

If you exclude the baserunning....

[KingKat]

If you exclude the baserunning....

 

Main problem with the baserunning was not starting 'Zeke in a couple of situations that called for it and I put that on Gibby.

[Dick_Pole]

Well, then. I hate to be an "I told you so" kind of guy, but I do recall posting on the Blue Jays message board (several years ago) that Edwin would be a beast of an asset if the Jays would just bloody put him at DH. :-)

 

That being said, I am happy for the Jays and their fans! I hope that they can ride this high through the post season, though there are undoubtedly steep challenges ahead.

 

First post douche level already at epic scale.

 

...and he was playing 1B last night as well as quite often for the past few weeks.

[o2cui2i]

 

what a moment!!! amazing!!

[o2cui2i]

[fatcowxlive]

If you exclude the baserunning....

 

Well he did say "it was one of the best games we've played all year on defense & pitching alone."

[Krylian]

Eddie isn't Bautista. He's far more reasonable. He is probably willing to take 18-20 instead of 25, because he DH's and doesn't field game in game out.

 

I understand that....and I'll say it again....blank cheque, or give him whatever he wants is a stupid philosophy. It has to make sense! If what he asks for makes sense, then giddy up. If not, walk.

[West Texas Forever]

You have to sign him, this is a good group of guys, if Jose leaves and EE that is a huge hole in the lineup, just pay the man and let him ride off into the sunset and retire his jersey in 5 years.

[JoeCarter]

A mid-30s EE is probably good for 6-7 WARs over the next 3 years, which should probably be worth a $55M contract. Or maybe $70M over 4 if you're feeling generous. I know it's tempting to look at his last few years of 3.0-4.0 Win seasons and extrapolate out to OMG 4 YEARS = 12 WINS = SIGN THAT MAN TO 4 YR @ $100M!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, but that's not really how it works. Getting old sucks. Nonetheless, we all know someone is going to grossly overpay for EE this offseason: I think he'll get ~ 4 and $90M. The real question is whether money not spent on EE would be spent elsewhere on payroll or whether Rogers would just pocket it, reasoning that the Red Sox are going to ride roughshod over the AL East for the next 5 years. I don't think he'll take a hometown discount, nor would I expect him to. He and Jose just played out two of the biggest bargain contracts in baseball history.

[Maahfaace]

Main problem with the baserunning was not starting 'Zeke in a couple of situations that called for it and I put that on Gibby.

 

I agree Gibby could of put runners in motion at certain times, but it's a more difficult decision with the rising swing and miss/strikeouts this line-up has encountered during the last month and a half. Saunders on the other hand, is a complete wreck on the basepaths, his decision making is that of an 8 year old and has been for most of the season. Pillar not scoring on Zeke's single was frustrating as well, but understandable given how close Jones ended up being when the ball landed.

[fatcowxlive]

Main problem with the baserunning was not starting 'Zeke in a couple of situations that called for it and I put that on Gibby.

 

him batting ahead of travis when the lineup gets turned and not starting him is criminal. Travis literally loves, and successfully, goes the other way. And Zeke has enough speed it's likely he can beat out a throw from the catcher in case the hit and run is botched.

[Bobthe4th]

A mid-30s EE is probably good for 6-7 WARs over the next 3 years, which should probably be worth a $55M contract. Or maybe $70M over 4 if you're feeling generous. I know it's tempting to look at his last few years of 3.0-4.0 Win seasons and extrapolate out to OMG 4 YEARS = 12 WINS = SIGN THAT MAN TO 4 YR @ $100M!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, but that's not really how it works. Getting old sucks. Nonetheless, we all know someone is going to grossly overpay for EE this offseason: I think he'll get ~ 4 and $90M. The real question is whether money not spent on EE would be spent elsewhere on payroll or whether Rogers would just pocket it, reasoning that the Red Sox are going to ride roughshod over the AL East for the next 5 years. I don't think he'll take a hometown discount, nor would I expect him to. He and Jose just played out two of the biggest bargain contracts in baseball history.

 

This is the important bit, and I'd be happy for us to overpay (i.e. >20m for 4 years), because I don't believe spending that money prevents us doing something else with it:

 

Payroll should not be restricted to less than $140-150m and could possibly be a lot higher;

If we want to extend Donaldson's contract next year it should be affordable with a bit of flexibility even with Eddie signed;

Free agency is weak this year, if both Eddie and Jose left we would struggle to get adequate replacements;

A trade for a decent replacement for either would be very difficult without either losing much needed prospects or weakening an already depleted starting group, or taking on an even worse contract (Votto for example);

If the worst case scenario happens and we suck next year (which I don't believe will be the case) Tulo and Martin should be movable to contenders with money to burn as both are considered good players and born winners;

The alternative is likely to be a combination of a bargain basement free agent or two, a prospect, a flyer on a waiver claim, and/or Smoak, all of which increases the chance of us taking a step back.

 

If someone completely blows our offer out of the water, don't go crazy, but this is definitely a situation where our only priority should not be getting perceived value for the contract.

[closetjaysfan]

From Rogers point of view, you would think that EE's prestige in the eyes of the fans would be worth another 5million/yr. Are you going to find another 2.5 WAR player that is going to sell as many season tickets, jerseys, and stuffed parrots... let alone watch TV on a network that you own?

[Thaze2016]

First post douche level already at epic scale.

 

Sigh... I really don't know why I bother trying to be civil with Ontarians and supportive of your team when it elicits these types of responses. What prompted this reply exactly? Your insecurity? Or are you just in the habit of being insulting and combative?

[Key22]

But the competition is Boston - they are going to replace Papi - what was Papi making in his final Year? Plus if you can see EE hitting to Papi's age? What 40 and he arguably just had one of his best seasons (over 1.000OPS)- or looking at the age of an Adrian Beltre at 37 who put up his usual monster season. It would not, therefore, be unreasonable to expect EE to be a very good player at 37-38-39-40. And if he continues to have a big post season I would not at all be surprised at $100m (5 years) who is after all 33 and not 37 or 40. A five year deal would take him to where Beltre's age is now. Perhaps the Jays can do 4 years and a vesting option or something to give them a bit of a fallback if EE falls off a cliff - but for three years he probably won't. And salaries are going way way up - $20 million in year three of his deal will likely look the same as what $13 million looks like now. And if you had EE at $13m he'd be the steal of the decade. Maybe it will take more than $20m a season. But it can't be THAT much more. Unless they think Tellez is ready or something. He hit 23 bombs in New Hampshire with a .900+ OPS. He looks to be coming pretty soon. Why the F they wasted money on Smoak is beyond me. Pay the Smoak salary add it to what you can pay EE and bring up Tellez for your big lefty power bat. Tellez probably can't be any worse than Smoak?

[RealAccountant]

Another big homerun for EE in the post season.

 

How will it feel, if we either lose the WS or win the WS, and then watch EE sign with the Redsox. A lot of questions will need to be asked. Like, what is the point of spending hundreds of dollars on tickets if our superstars are leaving for markets where less people attend and watch the games.

 

Do the right thing, and sign EE and Bau to 4 year 100 Million dollar deals.

[baseball player 3.0]

Another big homerun for EE in the post season.

 

How will it feel, if we either lose the WS or win the WS, and then watch EE sign with the Redsox. A lot of questions will need to be asked. Like, what is the point of spending hundreds of dollars on tickets if our superstars are leaving for markets where less people attend and watch the games.

 

Do the right thing, and sign EE and Bau to 4 year 100 Million dollar deals.

 

I think it's something "big time" markets do. Like how New York payed Jeter (except Bats and EE can still play at a high level). They're our guys. We have a mega rich owner. The highest attendance in the AL. This is the time to assert the Jays as big dogs in MLB like they were in the late 80s early 90s. If you're not going to give fair offers to the faces of your franchise what incentive is that for other free agents to come here?

[Stangstag]

I think it's something "big time" markets do. Like how New York payed Jeter (except Bats and EE can still play at a high level). They're our guys. We have a mega rich owner. The highest attendance in the AL. This is the time to assert the Jays as big dogs in MLB like they were in the late 80s early 90s. If you're not going to give fair offers to the faces of your franchise what incentive is that for other free agents to come here?

 

The Cardinals look pretty damn smart for passing on Albert Pujols. And that was after a world series win too.

 

Building a strong team is priority #1. Forget "feelings" and being nice to people.

[RealAccountant]

The Cardinals look pretty damn smart for passing on Albert Pujols. And that was after a world series win too.

 

Building a strong team is priority #1. Forget "feelings" and being nice to people.

 

The cardinals never had the money. Further we aren't talking about Pujols level money for EE or Jose

[BlueRocky]

Another big homerun for EE in the post season.

 

How will it feel, if we either lose the WS or win the WS, and then watch EE sign with the Redsox. A lot of questions will need to be asked. Like, what is the point of spending hundreds of dollars on tickets if our superstars are leaving for markets where less people attend and watch the games.

 

Do the right thing, and sign EE and Bau to 4 year 100 Million dollar deals.

 

I Have to agree with this.

Rogers is rich as f*** and we need to stop thinking like we're a small market team run by cheap owners.

Joey and EE have been grossly underpaid the past few seasons, they deserve to cash out at their age for what they have done for this franchise.

Rogers has enough $$ to sign both AND have room left in the payroll.

If you let them walk and take the picks, they better use that money and not pocket it.

 

The fans should demand nothing less than competitive baseball.

 

If you're telling me we will use that money to upgrade the roster like adding a Joey Votto then fine

[Bobthe4th]

I Have to agree with this.

Rogers is rich as f*** and we need to stop thinking like we're a small market team run by cheap owners.

Joey and EE have been grossly underpaid the past few seasons, they deserve to cash out at their age for what they have done for this franchise.

Rogers has enough $$ to sign both AND have room left in the payroll.

If you let them walk and take the picks, they better use that money and not pocket it.

 

The fans should demand nothing less than competitive baseball.

 

If you're telling me we will use that money to upgrade the roster like adding a Joey Votto then fine

 

The problem with signing both to long term expensive deals at whatever they ask for (up to $25/30m for 4/5 years) is that we already have Tulo, Martin and Donaldson on expensive deals. Even with a very large payroll we'd be restricted on filling out the rest of the roster needs, both now and in the future.

 

Plus if we had a down year either of the next 2 seasons (can happen to anyone) the pressure to blow it all up would be immense.

 

I'd much rather sign one (ideally EE) and let the other walk, I do agree that this shouldn't handicap us too much even if we overpay to the tune of $25m for 3/4 years. But if both ask for ridiculous amounts then I'd say take the picks.

[Krylian]

I Have to agree with this.

Rogers is rich as f*** and we need to stop thinking like we're a small market team run by cheap owners.

Joey and EE have been grossly underpaid the past few seasons, they deserve to cash out at their age for what they have done for this franchise.

Rogers has enough $$ to sign both AND have room left in the payroll.

If you let them walk and take the picks, they better use that money and not pocket it.

 

The fans should demand nothing less than competitive baseball.

 

If you're telling me we will use that money to upgrade the roster like adding a Joey Votto then fine

 

It doesn't matter how rich your owner is if said owner refuses to have an unlimited budget. I'm not saying they should just spend wildly on anything and everything that moves...but your argument doesn't work. This team does have payroll parameters, whether you like it or not...and contracts need to fit within that framework.

[Governator]

The cardinals never had the money. Further we aren't talking about Pujols level money for EE or Jose

 

 

It's well known Cardinals offered Pujols, 10 year $210MM offer... I mean they didn't match the Angels but still should have had the money to keep him.

[JoeCarter]

I Have to agree with this.

Rogers is rich as f*** and we need to stop thinking like we're a small market team run by cheap owners.

Joey and EE have been grossly underpaid the past few seasons, they deserve to cash out at their age for what they have done for this franchise.

Rogers has enough $$ to sign both AND have room left in the payroll.

If you let them walk and take the picks, they better use that money and not pocket it.

 

Disagree strongly with any sort of future compensation for them having outperformed their previous contracts. There's only 1 word for that: charity. And we're not in that business. By all means, goose up a contract offer to recognize the value that comes with having a long-time "face" of the franchise, but understand that the only reason it's rational to do so is because of the future branding and marketing value it provides. Value is tangible. Charity is not.

[JoeCarter]

The one thing that's been all but ignored ITT: performance drop-off due to aging. I'd love to freeze EE and Jose in time, and imagine that we'll get early-30's performance from them both for 4 more years, but that's not how the human body works. Search for baseball aging curve, and read any of those articles. We've got excellent data from tens of thousands of players, and have even studied whether better players somehow defy the traditional aging curve that befalls lesser players (hint: they don't). EE and Jose are at the beginning of a very steep decline. Do you know WHY we currently have this window to win in the AL East? It's because NYY (and to a lesser extent BOS) ignored the irrefutable math, and signed a bunch of over-the-hill superstars to $200 Million / year in terrible contracts, apparently believing that simply donning pinstripes could exempt one from the laws of biology. That's precisely what our fate will be for 2018-2020 if we sign EE and Jose to 4 year contracts. They're all-time Blue Jays, both of them, absolutely deserving of a banner on the Level of Excellence. But signing them to long-term contracts at this juncture would not be prudent for the team's future. Signing ONE of them (preferably EE) to a 3-year deal (primarily as a DH, perhaps some 1B) is defensible. Signing both would be suicide.

[fatcowxlive]

The Cardinals look pretty damn smart for passing on Albert Pujols. And that was after a world series win too.

 

Building a strong team is priority #1. Forget "feelings" and being nice to people.

 

lol are you comparing a HOFer to Bautista and Edwin? we're talking 4 (5 MAX) year deal for Edwin here not a franchise crippling 10 year/$240M sentence

[BTS]

I think it's something "big time" markets do. Like how New York payed Jeter (except Bats and EE can still play at a high level). They're our guys. We have a mega rich owner. The highest attendance in the AL. This is the time to assert the Jays as big dogs in MLB like they were in the late 80s early 90s. If you're not going to give fair offers to the faces of your franchise what incentive is that for other free agents to come here?

 

New York is just now recovering from years spent paying vets for past performance. Toronto has been extremely lucky so far in that Guys like Buehrle, Dickey, and maybe Bautista waited until the last years of their deals to fall apart, and I think it might be clouding people's perspective of just how rare it is for big contracts extending well into a player's 30s to work out well.

[Governator]

The one thing that's been all but ignored ITT: performance drop-off due to aging. I'd love to freeze EE and Jose in time, and imagine that we'll get early-30's performance from them both for 4 more years, but that's not how the human body works. Search for baseball aging curve, and read any of those articles. We've got excellent data from tens of thousands of players, and have even studied whether better players somehow defy the traditional aging curve that befalls lesser players (hint: they don't). EE and Jose are at the beginning of a very steep decline. Do you know WHY we currently have this window to win in the AL East? It's because NYY (and to a lesser extent BOS) ignored the irrefutable math, and signed a bunch of over-the-hill superstars to $200 Million / year in terrible contracts, apparently believing that simply donning pinstripes could exempt one from the laws of biology. That's precisely what our fate will be for 2018-2020 if we sign EE and Jose to 4 year contracts. They're all-time Blue Jays, both of them, absolutely deserving of a banner on the Level of Excellence. But signing them to long-term contracts at this juncture would not be prudent for the team's future. Signing ONE of them (preferably EE) to a 3-year deal (primarily as a DH, perhaps some 1B) is defensible. Signing both would be suicide.

 

 

You are one of the better new contributors we've had in a while. I might not always agree with you but you should be a rookie of the year candidate for the board awards.

[G-Snarls]

Donaldson is our best player but holy f*** how much more can Edwin do for this team

[rancher]

Main problem with the baserunning was not starting 'Zeke in a couple of situations that called for it and I put that on Gibby.

Zeke is the most under rated performer on the team. Really, they didn't know what they had when they went out and signed Upton.