Jays Acquire Harold Ramirez, Reese McGuire, Francisco Liriano for Hutch

[Brownie19]

19 good innings is not a high reward acquisition. We are literally talking about 0.3 WAR. You are vastly overrating the contributions of middle relievers IMO.

 

I'm saying in terms of relievers, it's a high reward acquisition. I think you underestimate the impact Grilli's had on the pen. I love analytics, but I don't think the WAR numbers do justice in this case.

 

 

I think there's a real chance that Benoit, Grilli, Sanchez and Osuna are the 4 pen horses we ride to the WS this year.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Feldman's 4.22 FIP. Benoit has looked good, but he's the same as the rest, guys having poor years hoping they can turn them around. Some will work out, some won't. How many games do they blow before you decide one didn't work out?

 

Your posts reek of panic. Let's let these guys settle in and play. I'm in favour of all the trades that've been made so far, short and long term.

[Grant77]

You and I have very different definitions of high reward.

 

Grilli has been worth .77 WPA with the Jays for what it's worth. Adding over a win (if he keeps performing) for nothing is a pretty good reward.

[Dr. Dinger]

Grilli has been worth .77 WPA with the Jays for what it's worth. Adding over a win (if he keeps performing) for nothing is a pretty good reward.

 

Pretty slim chance he continues to perform at the level he has for the Jays. One win is nice, it's not a huge reward by any means.

[glory]

Pretty slim chance he continues to perform at the level he has for the Jays. One win is nice, it's not a huge reward by any means.

 

For a reliever? One win is pretty significant, especially when you got him essentially for free.

[LGBJ29]

I don't mind the Feldman and Benoit pick ups, but it's a real stretch to try and paint them as high reward acquisitions.

 

ok, but relievers are never going to accumulate a high WAR especially over a short period of time, so by that logic any bullpen acquisiton shouldn't be labelled high reward. But in terms of a bullpen these aquisitions are potentially high reward relative to what we previously had. Grilli becoming a legit 8th inning guy, and Benoit potentially a strong 7th inning guy would do wonders for this team compared to Storen and Chavez blowing games left right and centre. Especially considering we gave up next to nothing

[Governator]

Pretty slim chance he continues to perform at the level he has for the Jays. One win is nice, it's not a huge reward by any means.

 

Dr. Negative Dinger

 

Considering the alternatives at the time of Storen, Floyd, Biagini, Tepera, Chavez, Schultz, Cecil, Loup, he's been one of our most reliable relievers and a valuable part of the pen that cost us next to nothing. When a player costs little and at worst will be equal to what we have with potential to be greater, that's what's considered a low risk high reward move.

 

Grilli was a damn good pick up for such a volatile bullpen.

[Dr. Dinger]

ok, but relievers are never going to accumulate a high WAR especially over a short period of time

 

Which is exactly why it isn't a high reward scenario.

[Dr. Dinger]

Grilli was a damn good pick up for such a volatile bullpen.

 

I never said he wasn't, learn to read.

[Grant77]

Pretty slim chance he continues to perform at the level he has for the Jays. One win is nice, it's not a huge reward by any means.

 

I don't know about that. He's been this good for the better part of six consecutive years now.

 

I think one win is really big in this division, but I don't see any point in continuing to argue about it.

[pickoff22]

Pretty slim chance he continues to perform at the level he has for the Jays. One win is nice, it's not a huge reward by any means.

 

Getting it for nothing in a seller's market is an impressive feat.

[Governator]

I never said he wasn't, learn to read.

 

You said he's not a huge reward... he has been.

[Dr. Dinger]

You said he's not a huge reward... he has been.

 

No, he hasn't. He's been worth 1/3 of a win.

[Governator]

No, he hasn't. He's been worth 1/3 of a win.

 

What's your point? Not everything is graded in decimals. When a reliever you pick up becomes your 2nd best reliever that's a low risk high reward within the context of mid relievers. It's like you're comparing the thought of 'high reward' to Aaron Sanchez.

[Dr. Dinger]

What's your point? Not everything is graded in decimals. When a reliever you pick up becomes your 2nd best reliever that's a low risk high reward within the context of mid relievers. It's like you're comparing the thought of 'high reward' to Aaron Sanchez.

 

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm saying that's not a high reward. It's a very small, incremental improvement, and likely one that's nowhere near sustainable.

[Governator]

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm saying that's not a high reward. It's a very small, incremental improvement, and likely one that's nowhere near sustainable.

 

High reward doesn't have to mean luckboxing an ace from a #5. No one is suggesting Grilli is worth 3WAR... everyone knows what a mid reliever is worth.

[admin]

Feldman has one of the lowest hard contact rates in baseball, with a very sold xFIP. He's a solid pick up and we gave up next to nothing. Same with Benoit. Essentially all of our moves have some sort of gamble to them, but they are all low risk high reward. It seems as though you would have preferred giving up top prospects (the few we have to work with) for mild MLB upgrades. Considering how expensive the market was, and how some teams extremely overpaid, Shatkins did a great job of finding ways to improve the club (both now and in the future) without overspending. This deadline wasn't flashy or sexy, but neither was the market.

 

You're trying to argue my post by talking about how great Feldman is. Reality is he's average, not much better, if at all than Chavez, who we got rid of. So how much did we really upgrade? Not much. Don't get me wrong, I liked all the moves made, but they are all minor moves.

[Dr. Dinger]

High reward doesn't have to mean luckboxing an ace from a #5. No one is suggesting Grilli is worth 3WAR... everyone knows what a mid reliever is worth.

 

Liriano turning back into a legit SP2 would be a high reward. Grilli is a very modest reward.

[Grant77]

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm saying that's not a high reward. It's a very small, incremental improvement, and likely one that's nowhere near sustainable.

 

What about Grilli's performance is unsustainable?

[Governator]

Liriano turning back into a legit SP2 would be a high reward. Grilli is a very modest reward.

 

 

You are one stubborn man to believe high reward can't be applied to mid relievers just because they don't provide a high enough WAR over the course of a season compared to starting pitchers.

 

We just have to agree to disagree.

[Dr. Dinger]

What about Grilli's performance is unsustainable?

 

Lol... Career high 13.7 K/9 at age 39, .235 BABIP, 95% strand rate, for starters

[Dr. Dinger]

You are one stubborn man to believe high reward can't be applied to mid relievers just because they don't provide a high enough WAR over the course of a season compared to starting pitchers.

 

We just have to agree to disagree.

 

I don't have to agree to disagree, you're just wrong.

[youngtea]

Why is it that every thread here ends up in arguing?

 

Makes a thread worthless to read.

[Governator]

Lol... Career high 13.7 K/9 at age 39, .235 BABIP, 95% strand rate, for starters

 

Not a career high in Ks, he's been > 12K/9 3 of last 4 seasons...

 

12 K/9 2015

13.3 K/9 2013

13.8 K/9 2012

10.2 K/9 2011

[Dr. Dinger]

Not a career high in Ks, he's been > 12K/9 3 of last 4 seasons...

 

12 K/9 2015

13.3 K/9 2013

13.8 K/9 2012

10.2 K/9 2011

 

No comment on his BABIP being 60 points below league average or his stand rate being 20% higher than league average? He's rather obviously due for some regression, but if you want to believe in a 19 IP sample, go right ahead.

[Brownie19]

Grilli's fist pumps alone qualify as high reward for the Jays (and fans). Man I love me some Grilli.

[Grant77]

Not a career high in Ks, he's been > 12K/9 3 of last 4 seasons...

 

12 K/9 2015

13.3 K/9 2013

13.8 K/9 2012

10.2 K/9 2011

 

I think this is hopeless. Admitting that Grilli is still good would undermine his entire premise.

[pickoff22]

The spirit of the original comment holds true - Grilli has been a fantastic pickup. Not sure why there needs to be two pages of nitpicking over whether it's "high reward" or not - fact is that it has worked out.

 

And yes I love me some good old fashioned fist pumping.

[Dr. Dinger]

I think this is hopeless. Admitting that Grilli is still good would undermine his entire premise.

 

Actually I've said all along that Grilli has been good.

[Governator]

I don't have to agree to disagree, you're just wrong.

 

 

I tried to end this ridiculous debate over the definition of low risk high reward, but if you want to carry on and trollololol so be it.

 

You're too stubborn to accept what others are saying can be considered true. Face it, you're wrong. It's okay to isolate a set of players such as mid relievers and judge their impact on a team as reward moves.