The case for re-signing Navarro

[Dr. Dinger]

Are you driving the GoGo fan bus now?

 

No, not at all. There were runners on 1st and 3rd with nobody out. I feel like Goins had a pretty good chance of at least making contact and beating out the back half of a DP to score the tying run, and a suicide or safety squeeze should also have been on the table in that situation (extremely fast PR on 3rd, nobody out, good bunter at the plate). You do a safety squeeze there, you either score the tying run and have a runner on 2nd with one out, or you have runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out. Navarro was a GIDP waiting to happen, which COULD score the winning run, but might not. I wasn't even thinking he was going to strike out, let alone him AND Revere (on that TERRIBLE f***ing called strike 2).

 

All that said, Wade Davis is a boss and you have to tip your hat.

[L54]

That second strike will haunt many forever.

[Brownie19]

Really, I'm indifferent if he stays or goes, but if I never have to hear Pat Tabler call him a "good"/"professional" hitter again, I'd be happy.

 

^This x 100.

 

Does this thread really need 4 pages?

[L54]

^This x 100.

 

Does this thread really need 4 pages?

 

Are polar bears white?!

[Grant77]

Are polar bears white?!

 

Their skin is black, which is pretty cool. I got to see a problem bear that was being transported to another area in a town near Cochrane.

[Dr. Dinger]

That second strike will haunt many forever.

 

I kinda think of it as evening things out for the terrible called ball 4 in Bautista's favour.

[Orgfiller]

I kinda think of it as evening things out for the terrible called ball 4 in Bautista's favour.

 

And which event evened out the Amish changing a double into a homerun? What about that other brutal strike?

[Grant77]

I kinda think of it as evening things out for the terrible called ball 4 in Bautista's favour.

 

Frangraphs went over that. It was a ball and it is called a ball more often than not.

[polar bear]

Unbelievable the hate for Navvy in this thread. I'm quite surprised. Below average backup catcher? Come on.

 

I'm with you here,I think Navaro is more than a decent backup,and an really nice guy to boot.

[Spanky99]

Barry Davis: "Dioner, I noticed Marco didn't shake you off once today, and Mark Buehrle never shakes you off. Why is that?"

Navarro: [straightfaced] "Dey know better."

 

lol

[Key22]

What kind of back-up catcher can you really expect - you either get a hitting catcher with poor defense or you get a defensive catcher who can't hit - if they could DO both they would not be back-up catchers - they would be $15,000,000 catchers.

 

Since Martin is a defensive stud with a good bat - it's not a terrible idea to have a good hitting back-up (and personal Estrada catcher) on the team.

 

2.5 million a year for 2 years (5 million total maybe up to 6 million) - might not be matched by another team and wouldn't kill us to do.

 

Who are the better options? Jeff Mathis is a defensive wiz but getting older and couldn't hit slow pitch out of the infield. And he's going to run 1.5 million.

 

Sometimes it's just better to keep the devil you know.

[Jimcanuck]

I don't want to go another year wondering why fatty is playing over Martin.

 

If not Thole, some other cheap catcher exclusively for Dickey. Use the money for pitching for gawd's sake.

[dineke]

What kind of back-up catcher can you really expect - you either get a hitting catcher with poor defense or you get a defensive catcher who can't hit - if they could DO both they would not be back-up catchers - they would be $15,000,000 catchers.

 

Since Martin is a defensive stud with a good bat - it's not a terrible idea to have a good hitting back-up (and personal Estrada catcher) on the team.

 

2.5 million a year for 2 years (5 million total maybe up to 6 million) - might not be matched by another team and wouldn't kill us to do.

 

Who are the better options? Jeff Mathis is a defensive wiz but getting older and couldn't hit slow pitch out of the infield. And he's going to run 1.5 million.

 

Sometimes it's just better to keep the devil you know.

 

Who the f*** cares about the back-up catcher, get Gregg Zaun to come out of retirement or something.

[quizang]

bring back jp arencibia he can catch dickey and chick's love the long balll

[Key22]

Who the f*** cares about the back-up catcher, get Gregg Zaun to come out of retirement or something.

 

I care if Martin breaks his leg the last day of spring training and you need the back-up to play half the season. Do you want it to be a guy who can hit and call a reasonable game but sucks at throwing people out and pitch framing - or do you want the defensive stud who is a complete black hole at the plate. The little decisions are not so little when injuries come around. It's pretty easy to find defensive catchers - I think it is harder to find offensive catchers - thus I'd rather have Navarro because he can also serve as a bench bat and could cover DH should injuries come at first base or dh. And he's not a clubhouse cancer or complete tool like a JP Arencibia - so there is that working for Navarro. Babe Ruth was fat and David Wells was fat - both of whom would be the best position and pitchers on the Jays is they were here in their prime - so being a tubby is irrelevant - look at the stats. Navarro can hit - offered up 2.4 WAR last year and 0.7 War this year in very limited action. And he was a positive on the defensive side of WAR as well. I'll look past his appearance and take the better numbers over a black hole who looks like Brad Pitt every time.

[Laika]

I care if Martin breaks his leg the last day of spring training and you need the back-up to play half the season. Do you want it to be a guy who can hit and call a reasonable game but sucks at throwing people out and pitch framing - or do you want the defensive stud who is a complete black hole at the plate. The little decisions are not so little when injuries come around. It's pretty easy to find defensive catchers - I think it is harder to find offensive catchers - thus I'd rather have Navarro because he can also serve as a bench bat and could cover DH should injuries come at first base or dh. And he's not a clubhouse cancer or complete tool like a JP Arencibia - so there is that working for Navarro. Babe Ruth was fat and David Wells was fat - both of whom would be the best position and pitchers on the Jays is they were here in their prime - so being a tubby is irrelevant - look at the stats. Navarro can hit - offered up 2.4 WAR last year and 0.7 War this year in very limited action. And he was a positive on the defensive side of WAR as well. I'll look past his appearance and take the better numbers over a black hole who looks like Brad Pitt every time.

 

It's fine to say that Navarro is an offensive catcher, but it takes it way too far to say that he can cover DH. He projects to be a below average MLB hitter (and he has been his entire time in Toronto).

 

The merits of Dioner Navarro depend entirely on whether or not you buy in to the newfangled advanced catcher stats. If you do entirely, then he is essentially a replacement level player. Maybe you can add some value for "game-calling", which escapes numerical evaluation so far, but that's speculative.

 

If you do not buy into the new stats re: framing and blocking, then Navarro is a solid backup.

 

For reference: His 2.1 fangraphs WAR in 2014 becomes 0.6 when we include framing numbers. His 0.5 WAR from last year becomes 0.2.

[Carp12]

If Martin is hurt long term then you deal with it when or if that happens. You don't sign a back up catcher for 5m on chance the starter gets hurt. What about Tulo? If he gets hurt. Should they then have a 5m dollar back up just in case? This goes for all bench players

[BigRed]

someone called him "f***ing terrible" which is ridiculous. He'd be a great backup catcher if we could afford him.

 

Thats the thing. Maybe as you suggest he would be too expensive. But it depends what our payroll is. If we're willing to spend $12 million on a #4 starter (Dickey) we should be willing to spend $4-5 million on a decent backup catcher for insurance if Martin gets hurt. Its a pretty important position. We'd be left scrambling if we were ever forced to rely on Thole for a long period of time.

 

My original post was made in the hypothetical situation where Navvy would want to come back. If the market doesn't present itself to him the way he wants, he may very well be willing to come back and be a backup catcher for a team with World Series aspirations.

 

I agree 100%.

 

I would be all for having Navarro back, as long as it doesn't mean we cant, for example, make another move for SP. If the money is an issue then they may need to get creative with the position.

 

He's probably one of the better if not top backup catchers in the league, and would be an average (or maybe below average) starter. If he can get a contract from a team wanting him as a starter then maybe we can't keep him. It would be a huge depth signing, because I want to puke at the thought of Thole being the starter if Martin gets hurt.

 

Also, if the Jays are willing to pay him 4-6M a year as a backup and that's what teams are offering him as a starter, why not stay with a contender and limit your playing time, reducing the risk of injury and prolonging your career? At this point in his career I don't think he's inline for a big, multi-year contract, so taking 1-2 years for 10-12M is probably all he will see.

 

The only real downside to resigning him (if possible) is that Martin catches Dickey for another year, and the money it would cost to keep him. However, I think I would prefer those downsides to the possibility of Thole catching if Martin gets hurt, or even just having Thole in the lineup every 5 games.

[Laika]

I agree 100%.

 

I would be all for having Navarro back, as long as it doesn't mean we cant, for example, make another move for SP. If the money is an issue then they may need to get creative with the position.

 

He's probably one of the better if not top backup catchers in the league, and would be an average (or maybe below average) starter. If he can get a contract from a team wanting him as a starter then maybe we can't keep him. It would be a huge depth signing, because I want to puke at the thought of Thole being the starter if Martin gets hurt.

 

Also, if the Jays are willing to pay him 4-6M a year as a backup and that's what teams are offering him as a starter, why not stay with a contender and limit your playing time, reducing the risk of injury and prolonging your career? At this point in his career I don't think he's inline for a big, multi-year contract, so taking 1-2 years for 10-12M is probably all he will see.

 

The only real downside to resigning him (if possible) is that Martin catches Dickey for another year, and the money it would cost to keep him. However, I think I would prefer those downsides to the possibility of Thole catching if Martin gets hurt, or even just having Thole in the lineup every 5 games.

 

Navarro vs. Thole is really a false dichotomy. Thole is total garbage who's given Toronto three nothing seasons, and he had a 74 wRC+ in frigging AAA last year. He'll get DFA'd at some point and might even be so bad that he'll accept an outright assignment to Buffalo.

 

It's Navarro vs. sign or trade for whoever is available.

[GD]

Yeah between Navarro and Thole I choose both DIAF

[BigRed]

Navarro vs. Thole is really a false dichotomy. Thole is total garbage who's given Toronto three nothing seasons, and he had a 74 wRC+ in frigging AAA last year. He'll get DFA'd at some point and might even be so bad that he'll accept an outright assignment to Buffalo.

 

It's Navarro vs. sign or trade for whoever is available.

 

Yeah, you're probably right, but if Navarro walks that means they really need to devote resources to either signing or trading (which means giving something up) for a backup, which is basically just insurance in case Martin gets injured.

 

Next to starting pitching this is actually the position I'm most concerned about. The bullpen to me is whatever... bullpens are so volatile the guys they have now could end up being a top bullpen, but if they had to rely on a s***** backup catcher for half a season it could be game over.

[puphood]

http://jaysjournal.com/2015/11/21/blue-jays-humerto-quintero-deal-points-to-josh-thole/

 

I don't get it a lot of the times but getting prepared to move Fatty is just weird. 2015 was anything but a good year for Martin and the team as it is now with Dickey in the rotation needs 3 catchers on the bench which again is just weird especially all this for a pitcher who at best is your #4 and biggest redeeming feature is he can go 200 innings. Move Dickey problem solved.....

[Jimcanuck]

Remember Fatty at DH for many games early in 2015? Good times. Will Gibby do it again? You betcha.

 

Just say no to Fatty.

[Grant77]

Remember Fatty at DH for many games early in 2015? Good times. Will Gibby do it again? You betcha.

 

Just say no to Fatty.

 

He's been our opening day DH for the past 2 seasons, lol.

[JaysAllMighty]

I would take him back, he will probably have better options though.

 

Cant see it happening.

 

This

[Key22]

If Martin is hurt long term then you deal with it when or if that happens. You don't sign a back up catcher for 5m on chance the starter gets hurt. What about Tulo? If he gets hurt. Should they then have a 5m dollar back up just in case? This goes for all bench players

 

But the question is do you think he will get 5 million? No one wanted Navarro at 5 million otherwise someone would have traded something quasi-decent to get him. If a guy like Mathis gets 1.5 million as a back-up then maybe you say Navarro is worth $2.5.

 

I'm not a big Navarro fan or anything - but I don't like fraking around with a team that mostly worked last year. And I'm betting Navarro makes less this year than he made last year. I sure don't want to be trading any more prospects to get a back-up catcher and the signing of Humberto Quintero isn't exactly stellar back-up material.

 

Note: Back-ups need to do one thing well. If Tulo went down and you put in Goins you don't lose much if anything on the defensive side of the game - and with Toronto's juggernaut offense they can withstand having an offensive loss. Now you can argue the same for Martin - I am fine with an all defensive catcher such as a Jeff Mathis type - for the same reason that we have a big offense that can overcome a black hole in the line-up. But I am thinking Navarro is in the under $3 million range and I feel he is more versatile than defensive catchers. If Martin went down - you could put in Navarro (you'd still have to go out and get a defensive back-up but they're easier to get). In the unlikely event that both EE and Colabello went down - and for 8 games you need a dh - do you want the dh to be a Navarro or Mathis with game(s) on the line? I want the options. Maybe I can't get the option to back up Tulo or Donaldson - but we can get it with the catcher - fairly cheap - so why wouldn't you?

 

I think having a bucket of depth allows more choices for the manager and to cover as many positions as possible. That's why I hate all notions of trading our offense. When a team has two big homer hitters and one goes down - it's basically over. They pitch around the other guy who now has no protection. This is why Donaldson was so good - not one intentional walk all year because look who was behind him. Devon Travis goes down - Goins steps in and is perfectly fine - better defensively in fact. EE is always battling injuries - Colabello can fill in admirably.

 

My question I suppose is this - looking at the list of free agent catchers (ick) who else is clearly a better all around catcher - Soto can hit a bit - but he only bats right and his dWar according to Baseball Reference is worse than Navarro. For an extra million bucks a year - I'd just rather go with a guy the Jays already know and like.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Key22

[puphood]

But the question is do you think he will get 5 million? No one wanted Navarro at 5 million otherwise someone would have traded something quasi-decent to get him. If a guy like Mathis gets 1.5 million as a back-up then maybe you say Navarro is worth $2.5.

 

I'm not a big Navarro fan or anything - but I don't like fraking around with a team that mostly worked last year. And I'm betting Navarro makes less this year than he made last year. I sure don't want to be trading any more prospects to get a back-up catcher and the signing of Humberto Quintero isn't exactly stellar back-up material.

 

Note: Back-ups need to do one thing well. If Tulo went down and you put in Goins you don't lose much if anything on the defensive side of the game - and with Toronto's juggernaut offense they can withstand having an offensive loss. Now you can argue the same for Martin - I am fine with an all defensive catcher such as a Jeff Mathis type - for the same reason that we have a big offense that can overcome a black hole in the line-up. But I am thinking Navarro is in the under $3 million range and I feel he is more versatile than defensive catchers. If Martin went down - you could put in Navarro (you'd still have to go out and get a defensive back-up but they're easier to get). In the unlikely event that both EE and Colabello went down - and for 8 games you need a dh - do you want the dh to be a Navarro or Mathis with game(s) on the line? I want the options. Maybe I can't get the option to back up Tulo or Donaldson - but we can get it with the catcher - fairly cheap - so why wouldn't you?

 

I think having a bucket of depth allows more choices for the manager and to cover as many positions as possible. That's why I hate all notions of trading our offense. When a team has two big homer hitters and one goes down - it's basically over. They pitch around the other guy who now has no protection. This is why Donaldson was so good - not one intentional walk all year because look who was behind him. Devon Travis goes down - Goins steps in and is perfectly fine - better defensively in fact. EE is always battling injuries - Colabello can fill in admirably.

 

My question I suppose is this - looking at the list of free agent catchers (ick) who else is clearly a better all around catcher - Soto can hit a bit - but he only bats right and his dWar according to Baseball Reference is worse than Navarro. For an extra million bucks a year - I'd just rather go with a guy the Jays already know and like.

 

Like this post. The only stipulation I would add is Navarro go on Jenny Craig before I sign him.

[BigRed]

If Martin is hurt long term then you deal with it when or if that happens. You don't sign a back up catcher for 5m on chance the starter gets hurt. What about Tulo? If he gets hurt. Should they then have a 5m dollar back up just in case? This goes for all bench players

 

The drop-off in skill from Martin to Thole is just too huge in my mind to not make some attempt to protect yourself from it, especially if it's via free agency for a couple of million. Thole is good at literally nothing except catching a knuckleball. If Navarro is looking for 4-5M then maybe you have to evaluate other options, but remember, the only reason he was ever brought here was to catch Dickey, and he didn't even do that for most of last year. He's not a serviceable backup at all. The guy should be giving Dickey like half his salary, if Dickey retires he probably doesn't even have a job in the minors anywhere.