Sooo... when is it appropriate for AA to announce his deal with the Marlins?

[Dr. Dinger]

I think we agree, and I appreciate your empirical addition to this off-topic tangent.

[IBTrini]

I really don't think he left over Money, he wanted the President job.

I don't think it was the money either. I think it had more to do with Anthopoulos' conceived working relationship with Shapiro.

 

Anthopoulos was able to rebuild the farm twice and got the elite players currently on the team based on solid scouting knowledge (including input and feedback from those around him) of those player and his ability to instigate trades where they didn't appear possible. Anthopoulos was given a lot of leeway previously to pursue any player he felt could make a positive impact on the team while utilizing all possible resources including having Beeston's blessing to support his moves/strategy.

 

I believe Shapiro essentially told Anthopoulos that he wanted to be involved in that side which would typically tie his hands since he no longer would be working in a vacuum and that he would have to pass everything though him first including the trading of farm hands. Shapiro's comment that no-one has complete autonomy surely sent the message that those days were long gone.

 

If you have a weak GM then I can see this type of strategy being beneficial however this was not the case in Toronto. Shapiro should have left Anthopoulos' role as it was and kept to the "President's" role.

[Boxcar]

I don't think it was the money either. I think it had more to do with Anthopoulos' conceived working relationship with Shapiro.

 

Anthopoulos was able to rebuild the farm twice and got the elite players currently on the team based on solid scouting knowledge (including input and feedback from those around him) of those player and his ability to instigate trades where they didn't appear possible. Anthopoulos was given a lot of leeway previously to pursue any player he felt could make a positive impact on the team while utilizing all possible resources including having Beeston's blessing to support his moves/strategy.

 

I believe Shapiro essentially told Anthopoulos that he wanted to be involved in that side which would typically tie his hands since he no longer would be working in a vacuum and that he would have to pass everything though him first including the trading of farm hands. Shapiro's comment that no-one has complete autonomy surely sent the message that those days were long gone.

 

If you have a weak GM then I can see this type of strategy being beneficial however this was not the case in Toronto. Shapiro should have left Anthopoulos' role as it was and kept to the "President's" role.

 

I disagree. AA was being a total Dombrowski and eventually the Jays would have become the 2015 Tigers. The Jays are exciting right now but definitely not sustainable.

[CHRIS]

peak BTS in here

 

Give him a break. He was probably running a regression at the same time and just plain got distracted.

[Frenchsoup]

I disagree. AA was being a total Dombrowski and eventually the Jays would have become the 2015 Tigers. The Jays are exciting right now but definitely not sustainable.

 

No Dombrowski gave us Devon Travis, remember?

[Laika]

Give him a break. He was probably running a regression at the same time and just plain got distracted.

 

yessssssss

 

just running a simple regression for lunch

[Frenchsoup]

Some of those Tiger teams were pretty good, so I wouldn't be to quick to rip Dombrowski.

[art_vandelay275]

I disagree. AA was being a total Dombrowski and eventually the Jays would have become the 2015 Tigers. The Jays are exciting right now but definitely not sustainable.

 

having several days to "stew" on this, as shocking and unexpected AA's decision was, i think it's time that he moves on. it's like the founders/management team of a start-up that has grown and become successful. they've added staff and are now competing in a different landscape than when they were still a struggling start-up. the board/owners brings in a new management team, "professional" managers to bring the company to the next phase. this is the best analogy (from my personal experience) i can draw

 

i appreciate AA for the raw passion that he put into the job. i honestly can't say "f*** him; he left the team". he was the man for the team for a "season". for the franchise to move onto the next phase, we need new mgmt. as much i appreciate what AA has done, i also am in the corner that this change should have happened quite a while ago.

 

different times call for different measures

[o2cui2i]

I disagree. AA was being a total Dombrowski and eventually the Jays would have become the 2015 Tigers. The Jays are exciting right now but definitely not sustainable.

 

it will be interesting to see how our system gets rebuilt. interesting times from now until next draft to see how things will be run. We won't really know until next summer how Shapiro will do things.

 

Shapiro said that if he is presented with all the information the decision is already made. (Paraphrasing of course.)

 

I hope Shapiro means metrics will make the decisions

[metafour]

Anthopoulos was able to rebuild the farm twice

 

...through strategies that are now no longer possible. I don't understand why people just assume that we'll be able to rebuild the system in 1-2 drafts (like before) when we can no longer go out and acquire multiple picks and accumulate large bonus pools. The very nature of fielding a winning team means that we will now not only draft near the bottom, but we'll also have among the smallest allocated bonus pools. Just look at how our most recent draft turned out with no extra picks and no extra money allocated to our bonus pool: only a couple of guys look legitimately interesting, and I'm not sure how many of those (if any) have actual impact upside. We did however continue our tradition of botching a top selection on a kid that didn't end up signing, which means that our haul this year ranks in the bottom half league wide.

[Laika]

I disagree. AA was being a total Dombrowski and eventually the Jays would have become the 2015 Tigers. The Jays are exciting right now but definitely not sustainable.

 

Yup. AA dug himself a little hole with the Marlins and Dickey trades, and his solution was just to keep digging until he hit playoff pay dirt.

 

If extended and given autonomy he could very well have Amaro'd this organization, for all we know.

[TilsonBritoFan]

Yup. AA dug himself a little hole with the Marlins and Dickey trades, and his solution was just to keep digging until he hit playoff pay dirt.

 

If extended and given autonomy he could very well have Amaro'd this organization, for all we know.

 

Doubtful. More likely, he would have restocked the farm again (we have a lot of nice prospects at lower depths who could blossom in a few years).

 

He managed to restock the farm quickly after the Marlins/Mets trades. Why couldn't he have done the same after the Tigers/Rockies trades?

[metafour]

Doubtful. More likely, he would have restocked the farm again (we have a lot of nice prospects at lower depths who could blossom in a few years).

 

He managed to restock the farm quickly after the Marlins/Mets trades. Why couldn't he have done the same after the Tigers/Rockies trades?

 

Read my post above.

[Laika]

Doubtful. More likely, he would have restocked the farm again (we have a lot of nice prospects at lower depths who could blossom in a few years).

 

He managed to restock the farm quickly after the Marlins/Mets trades. Why couldn't he have done the same after the Tigers/Rockies trades?

 

A lot of that "restocking" was just maturation from the previous rebuild phase.

 

Examples:

 

Daniel Norris was a 2011 pick that matured in 2014

Franklin Barreto was signed in 2012, in the old international prospect process, before international bonus slots, for $2M.

Osuna signed before 2011

Castro signed in 2012

Pompey was a 2010 pick

Labourt was signed before 2011

Tinoco signed before 2012

Cordero signed before 2012

Sean Nolin was a 2010 pick

 

Alex Anthopoulos didn't do the Marlins and Dickey trades and then "restock" the farm system before spending a bunch of it this year. That's a myth. It's not possible to rebuild a farm system in a year or two without doing an MLB level tear down.

 

In fact, to build the 2015 playoff team he very much dipped into the same prospect capital that he dipped into to get Dickey and the Marlins guys. He went to the same well in 2015.

 

A legitimate farm system has 50+ notable prospects. In any given MLB draft + international signing period, a team is probably lucky (or has done well) to get 10 notable prospects. It takes half a decade or a string of very good drafts to rebuild a s***** system.

 

There's a very real chance that Anthopoulos was mis-managing the team's farm system and young talent, and it just hadn't caught up to the organization yet.

 

(Rogers, I need an advance on that next paycheque).

[Frenchsoup]

A lot of that "restocking" was just maturation from the previous rebuild phase.

 

Examples:

 

Daniel Norris was a 2011 pick that matured in 2014

Franklin Barreto was signed in 2012, in the old international prospect process, before international bonus slots, for $2M.

Osuna signed before 2011

Castro signed in 2012

Pompey was a 2010 pick

Labourt was signed before 2011

Tinoco signed before 2012

Cordero signed before 2012

Sean Nolin was a 2010 pick

 

Alex Anthopoulos didn't do the Marlins and Dickey trades and then "restock" the farm system before spending a bunch of it this year. That's a myth. It's not possible to rebuild a farm system in a year or two without doing an MLB level tear down.

 

In fact, to build the 2015 playoff team he very much dipped into the same prospect capital that he dipped into to get Dickey and the Marlins guys. He went to the same well in 2015.

 

A legitimate farm system has 50+ notable prospects. In any given MLB draft + international signing period, a team is probably lucky (or has done well) to get 10 notable prospects. It takes half a decade or a string of very good drafts to rebuild a s***** system.

 

There's a very real chance that Anthopoulos was mis-managing the team's farm system and young talent, and it just hadn't caught up to the organization yet.

 

(Rogers, I need an advance on that next paycheque).

 

Guys come at different times, some quicker like Hoffman, some get hurt like Pentecost. AA was pretty awesome at recognizing talent and getting that asset in the system.

He messed up the Marlins/Mets trades bad. But from what I've seen from him lately, I don't think he'd do anything close to as stupid as those trades.

[Frenchsoup]

The last real dumb trade he made was Kratz/Hendriks for Valencia, but all of that changed this season.

[glory]

Doubtful. More likely, he would have restocked the farm again (we have a lot of nice prospects at lower depths who could blossom in a few years).

 

He managed to restock the farm quickly after the Marlins/Mets trades. Why couldn't he have done the same after the Tigers/Rockies trades?

 

Because type B free agency no longer exists and there is a cap to how much you can spend in the draft and internationally. The drafts you saw in 2010 and 2011 are impossible to do now. Not happening.

 

If AA threw more prospects to fix his earlier mistakes, then why wouldn't he have traded even more in the future to extend this window if he was given the opportunity? Dude was walking a tightrope with the way he was building the team.

 

Shapiro took over at the right time. AA was one year away from Amaro'ing this organization.

[Frenchsoup]

Because type B free agency no longer exists and there is a cap to how much you can spend in the draft and internationally. The drafts you saw in 2010 and 2011 are impossible to do now. Not happening.

 

If AA threw more prospects to fix his earlier mistakes, then why wouldn't he have traded even more in the future to extend this window if he was given the opportunity? Dude was walking a tightrope with the way he was building the team.

 

Shapiro took over at the right time. AA was one year away from Amaro'ing this organization.

 

The only way he Amaro's the org is if he extends Bautista and Eddy to massive contracts. Amaro did so many dumb things, the fact you guys are even mentioning him in the same sentence with AA is pretty mind boggling.

[bendera3]

 

A legitimate farm system has 50+ notable prospects. In any given MLB draft + international signing period, a team is probably lucky (or has done well) to get 10 notable prospects. It takes half a decade or a string of very good drafts to rebuild a s***** system.

 

 

(Rogers, I need an advance on that next paycheque).

 

That is complete bull. If you're a good, well run franchise (Cardinals) you top out at 25/30 at most. I think the AA tenure was pretty good in the draft/signage department.

[glory]

The only way he Amaro's the org is if he extends Bautista and Eddy to massive contracts. Amaro did so many dumb things, the fact you guys are even mentioning him in the same sentence with AA is pretty mind boggling.

 

You don't think he would have extended those two, or at least tried to?

[burlingtonbandit]

You don't think he would have extended those two, or at least tried to?

 

It wouldn't be Ryan Howard money thats for sure. You are comparing one of the better GMs to one of the worst GMs of all time.

[Laika]

That is complete bull. If you're a good, well run franchise (Cardinals) you top out at 25/30 at most.

 

LOL no.

 

I think the AA tenure was pretty good in the draft/signage department.

 

It was fine. Probably above average. He wasn't some wizard farm builder though.

[o2cui2i]

He wasn't some wizard farm builder though.

 

he used the system very well, but those holes have been closed now...

[Nafro]

I think it should be noted, that because of signing Vlad Jr., we will not be able to sign any IFA's for over $300,000. That will also limit us from being able to add prospect depth next year. Thanks to being able to trade Locastro and DeJong for International Slot, we will be able to go after the IFA's of 2017, when some major player's are sitting out.

 

That being said, this organization has done a terrific job at getting IFA's in the lower tier, who over achieve what they are signed for. The same can be said with how its drafted College Sr.'s for peanuts who over achieve. That was LaCava and our scouting team doing that. They are still all a part of the front office.

 

I actually think that AA leaving is going to be a positive. I think the real ninja's were behind the scenes. That's not to take anything away from Alex's ability as a GM.

 

Our system is not stripped bare! We have the chance to have a top prospect at every position in a year or two. (Guerrero if he can stick at third, Urena at SS, Travis at 2B maybe even Lane Thomas down the road, Tellez at first (McBroom may be something), Alford/Pompey in the OF (maybe even DJ), Pentecost/Jansen as C's). Pitching wise we have Pimp, Connor Greene, Perdomo, and others who may come back into play like Borucki, Hollon, Robson. Long range guys like Espada, Meza, Maese. Lots of other interesting players.

 

I think the state of the Blue Jays has not been this good since the mid to late 80's.

[Laika]

he used the system very well, but those holes have been closed now...

 

It was super easy to build a farm back in those good old days, if you were rebuilding at the MLB level.

 

ps - you are a bad mod

[bendera3]

LOL no.

 

Name one franchise that has 50 prospects that the last 20 aren't "borderline 25th man" potential.

[Frenchsoup]

he used the system very well, but those holes have been closed now...

 

What holes? Our mlb team only has holes on the pitching side. We also have a bunch of cash to spend. So basically lets rethink this thought a year from now when some of our minor leaguers are moving up levels and getting more hype.

[o2cui2i]

What holes? Our mlb team only has holes on the pitching side. We also have a bunch of cash to spend. So basically lets rethink this thought a year from now when some of our minor leaguers are moving up levels and getting more hype.

 

and now you can go back and read what I wrote again.

[Nafro]

NJH. One thing to note...while I agree that this is probably the case, the statement "any study will find the correlation with velocity and TJS" cannot be made as a blanket statement. As someone who did specific research on the TJS (the procedure, more than the biomechanics that cause it however). Science is just the same as advanced sabermetrics, you can have confirmation bias.

 

No study should ever be performed with the thought this will be the results. An educated hypothesis is one thing. You can never say that every TJS is necessitated by velocity, there are so many factors. Genetics, biomechanics, pitching mechanics, usage prior to full muscular/skeletal development, injuries to other parts of the body which change pitching mechanics, lower half and its use in your delivery, etc.

[Laika]

Name one franchise that has 50 prospects that the last 20 aren't "borderline 25th man" potential.

 

Most organizations do, but I'm not a f***ing scout.

 

s***, John Mayo and John Sickels can sit at home in their pyjamas and name 30+ legitimate prospects with MLB potential in basically every MLB organization. Just because BA and BP do top 10 lists and most public sector scouts don't have the resources to properly evaluate the very low minors doesn't mean that potential real talent doesn't run 50+ names deep and all the way down to the DOSL and VESL.

 

Just as a reference, before John Sickels does his offseason top 20 for each team he does a preliminary prospect list that tends to run 40+ names deep, and then gets community input on who to cut/keep.