Alex Anthopoulos Departing

[John_Havok]

Locked up Bautista with a sweet deal here too. This is what he's great at. Identify opportunities to lock players up before they explode.

 

Very different scenarios there, Bautista was a free agent coming off a monster year out of relative obscurity.

 

What interesting to me about the whole Bautista thing... when pittsburgh put him on waivers and the Jays got the claim, the deal almost fell apart because the Pirates wanted Brian Jeroloman, and the Jays said no. Luckily the Jays had Robinson Diaz as a backup offer the Pirates took.

[G-Snarls]

Very different scenarios there, Bautista was a free agent coming off a monster year out of relative obscurity.

 

What interesting to me about the whole Bautista thing... when pittsburgh put him on waivers and the Jays got the claim, the deal almost fell apart because the Pirates wanted Brian Jeroloman, and the Jays said no. Luckily the Jays had Robinson Diaz as a backup offer the Pirates took.

 

Yeah

 

Acuna and Tatis are prob better compared. Both top prospects in all of baseball with minimal MLB experience at the time they signed.

 

And one did, ummmm... a little better

[G-Snarls]

At the same time, yes the Bautista contract provided incredible value

[Dr. Dinger]

AA also got OFF the horrible Vernon Wells contract, which seemed impossible at the time.

[BigCecil]

The ATL core was there but two huge pieces are missing - Acuna Jr & Soroka. Basically like taking Vlad or Bo and Ray out of the 2021 Jays line up. He augmented that well as a buyer at the deadline when many urged them to sell.

 

He solidified that ATL core with deals on Acuna and Albies which on their own are HOF level signings for a GM. Massive value.

 

He took risks on both Jose and Edwin with the Jays after basically one elite season signing deals with huge value. He signed Vlad Jr rolling the dice and spending all his international signing money on him. JD deal was a steal.

 

Some will never forgive him for the Syndergaard deal. The MIA deal didn't work out and he did trade away a lot of prospects to assemble the 15-16 teams, but few of them ever materialized into significant MLB value. He had an older core and a stale franchise. Rolled the dice as the window was closing. Those two seasons re-energized the organization and country for baseball after a 2 decade long playoff drought. He wont ever get much credit on this Board, but he is pretty f***ing gutsy and solid GM.

[BigCecil]

AA also got OFF the horrible Vernon Wells contract, which seemed impossible at the time.

 

Also dumped off Rios deal.

[Jimcanuck]

The ATL core was there but two huge pieces are missing - Acuna Jr & Soroka. Basically like taking Vlad or Bo and Ray out of the 2021 Jays line up. He augmented that well as a buyer at the deadline when many urged them to sell.

 

He solidified that ATL core with deals on Acuna and Albies which on their own are HOF level signings for a GM. Massive value.

 

He took risks on both Jose and Edwin with the Jays after basically one elite season signing deals with huge value. He signed Vlad Jr rolling the dice and spending all his international signing money on him. JD deal was a steal.

 

Some will never forgive him for the Syndergaard deal. The MIA deal didn't work out and he did trade away a lot of prospects to assemble the 15-16 teams, but few of them ever materialized into significant MLB value. He had an older core and a stale franchise. Rolled the dice as the window was closing. Those two seasons re-energized the organization and country for baseball after a 2 decade long playoff drought. He wont ever get much credit on this Board, but he is pretty f***ing gutsy and solid GM.

 

AA was fine as Blue Jays GM. He made good moves and bad moves, overall good. Wanted to make that clear because this particular debate started with the question "Do you miss AA?", and not "Is AA a good GM?"

 

I don't miss AA because Shatkins is just as competent, if not more. Having combined the build of a young exciting contending team for years to come with a very strong farm system. The current state of the franchise reminds me of the long contending window of the 80's and 90's, and not the short '15-'16 one.

[glory]

Also dumped off Rios deal.

 

Rios was claimed off waivers by the White Sox in 2009, before AA took over (officially at least, depending on how much power Ricciardi had at that point). Considering they got nothing in return for him, I wouldn't call that a great move, although it did open up RF for Bautista in hindsight, so ultimately it served a greater purpose. The Wells deal was a heist. If only he kept Napoli.

 

I think AA started to resemble a very good GM in the winter of 2014 (Travis trade, Saunders trade before he got hurt, JD trade, Martin signing). Considering he was fighting for a job at that point, he knocked that off season out of the park. Everything prior to that was more of a mixed bag, especially 2013 which was a colossal swing and a miss. Once he went to the Dodgers and got to see an elite front office at work, that's when he took a step forward as a GM.

[BigCecil]

AA was fine as Blue Jays GM. He made good moves and bad moves, overall good. Wanted to make that clear because this particular debate started with the question "Do you miss AA?", and not "Is AA a good GM?"

 

I don't miss AA because Shatkins is just as competent, if not more. Having combined the build of a young exciting contending team for years to come with a very strong farm system. The current state of the franchise reminds me of the long contending window of the 80's and 90's, and not the short '15-'16 one.

 

Hmmm....Thats a glass half full view of Shatkins tenure. Time will tell. I see a large amount of challenges on the horizon to keep this team competitive long term. Payroll has gone up....they have had years and will get more runway....and so far where it matters most, we have one blow out loss in a expanded playoff format to show for it. For all of the views AA left the cupboard bare, he also left them some plums like Vlad Jr. The AL East is an unforgiving place. Hope you are right.

[JaysAllMighty]

Shatkins hanging on to Montoyo is very disturbing. Why do they want an idiot for a manager?

[Ray]

Anthopoulos himself has said in interviews that he grew and learned a lot from Zaidi/Friedman about sustainable winning. He's not the same guy he was with us. He's clearly a very talented GM, but you could argue he was still developing as an executive while with us and hit his stride with Atlanta.

 

I think his strengths lie with putting finishing touches/adding to a good core, but I don't think he's a great builder the same way Shapiro/Atkins are. He neglected investing in important infrastructure like player development & facilities and instead focused exclusively on the major league roster. It's no surprise that our prospect pool started thriving as soon as Shapiro/Atkins came into the helm. The current regime has poured a TON of $$ into R&D, player development, strength & conditioning, mental skills, nutrition, facilities, all of which not only help younger players flourish, but are attractive to free agents as well. You could argue a guy like Biggio might've never made the majors with AA's system, whereas now he's at least a useful utility guy.

 

I will respect AA for always giving it 110% though. He was relentless in his pursuit to make the team better. And clearly he's adjusted his philosophy, because he doesn't trade away that many prospects now. I'm less bullish on his actual drafting with Atlanta, albeit that may be more of a Dana Brown problem.

[CrackerJack]

Shatkins hanging on to Montoyo is very disturbing. Why do they want an idiot for a manager?

 

I'd guess that they still want Charlie as manager because he remains their grateful puppet without probably any pushback. Helps also that he speaks Spanish and is cheap.

 

Remember when Atkins publicly blamed Charlie for Vladdy resting on Victoria day? Oh wait, Atkins took partial blame for not explaining to Charlie "the importance of Victoria day" to Canadians. haha

Edited October 26, 2021 by CrackerJack

[Jimcanuck]

I would prefer the team move on from Dumtoyo, but one thing we do not know about is the importance of clubhouse management. Few of us or any of us know how often clubhouse issues torpedo a team.

 

The Padres may very well have been sunk by a poisoned clubhouse atmosphere.

[Brownie19]

Anthopoulos himself has said in interviews that he grew and learned a lot from Zaidi/Friedman about sustainable winning. He's not the same guy he was with us. He's clearly a very talented GM, but you could argue he was still developing as an executive while with us and hit his stride with Atlanta.

 

I think his strengths lie with putting finishing touches/adding to a good core, but I don't think he's a great builder the same way Shapiro/Atkins are. He neglected investing in important infrastructure like player development & facilities and instead focused exclusively on the major league roster. It's no surprise that our prospect pool started thriving as soon as Shapiro/Atkins came into the helm. The current regime has poured a TON of $$ into R&D, player development, strength & conditioning, mental skills, nutrition, facilities, all of which not only help younger players flourish, but are attractive to free agents as well. You could argue a guy like Biggio might've never made the majors with AA's system, whereas now he's at least a useful utility guy.

 

I will respect AA for always giving it 110% though. He was relentless in his pursuit to make the team better. And clearly he's adjusted his philosophy, because he doesn't trade away that many prospects now. I'm less bullish on his actual drafting with Atlanta, albeit that may be more of a Dana Brown problem.

 

I agree with the first paragraph. But isn't the stuff in bold the responsibility of the Team President? Shouldn't that blame fall on Beeston? Or do I have that wrong? I always thought it was Shapiro who was revamping our facilities and support teams (not Atkins). I mean we shouldn't be surprised that Beeston wasn't up to date on the current needs of athletes and such.

[Spanky99]

I agree with the first paragraph. But isn't the stuff in bold the responsibility of the Team President? Shouldn't that blame fall on Beeston? Or do I have that wrong? I always thought it was Shapiro who was revamping our facilities and support teams (not Atkins). I mean we shouldn't be surprised that Beeston wasn't up to date on the current needs of athletes and such.

 

You're right that's all on head of baseball operations/President. It was Beeston lollygagging around with his cigars and old boys club. All Beeston did in the end of his tenure was meddle in AA's process.

 

The first paragraph is bang on, he just admitted on air yesterday he made mistakes, and learned much through them mistakes and praised the Dodgers FO.

[Spanky99]

As for that question about missing AA, nah, Atkins has been a perfectly cromulent GM replacement.

[John_Havok]

As for that question about missing AA, nah, Atkins has been a perfectly cromulent GM replacement.

 

Cromulent? Damn.

 

Did you get a “word of the day” case of tall boys recently?

[Spanky99]

Cromulent? Damn.

 

Did you get a “word of the day” case of tall boys recently?

 

Respect the cligue.

[Skinny Wolf]

Shatkins hanging on to Montoyo is very disturbing. Why do they want an idiot for a manager?

 

The blue Jays competing window is another 2-3 years. After that big payroll for vlad and bo. Shatkins want to waste another year with Dumtoyo is simply stupid.

[Spanky99]

The blue Jays competing window is another 2-3 years. After that big payroll for vlad and bo. Shatkins want to waste another year with Dumtoyo is simply stupid.

 

Yeah man!!!

[Eat My Shatkins]

The blue Jays competing window is another 2-3 years. After that big payroll for vlad and bo. Shatkins want to waste another year with Dumtoyo is simply stupid.

 

What the f***?

 

The Jays competitive window is a hell of a lot longer than that.

 

The only way it won't be is if they pay those guys huge contracts and then those guys start sucking.

 

They've got a great young core, and a top 10 farm system.

[Spanky99]

What the f***?

 

The Jays competitive window is a hell of a lot longer than that.

 

The only way it won't be is if they pay those guys huge contracts and then those guys start sucking.

 

They've got a great young core, and a top 10 farm system.

 

That's what you got out of that?! lol... smoke a spliff mate. *I Would*

[Jimcanuck]

What the f***?

 

The Jays competitive window is a hell of a lot longer than that.

 

The only way it won't be is if they pay those guys huge contracts and then those guys start sucking.

 

They've got a great young core, and a top 10 farm system.

 

Cubbies

 

Looked like a dynasty and a couple of bad moves, injuries and prospect trades, and they suck balls again in short order.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Jimcanuck

[glory]

What the f***?

 

The Jays competitive window is a hell of a lot longer than that.

 

The only way it won't be is if they pay those guys huge contracts and then those guys start sucking.

 

They've got a great young core, and a top 10 farm system.

 

Looking at the current Jays prospect list, there is a pretty noticeable drop after the top 3 (Moreno, Martinez, Groshans). That doesn't mean the system is bad, but it's not like the system is littered with talent that is close to contributing. We may look back on 2021 as one of the real opportunities to not only make the playoffs but go deep into it with this core. The fact that it was wasted due to (in large part) the manager, who isn't in any danger of getting replaced, is incredibly frustrating.

 

It's hard to say how long this competitive window is. I think the team should be good for at least as long as Vlad/Bo are under control but the East is very difficult. Expanded playoffs would certainly help.

[Stangstag]

Looking at the current Jays prospect list, there is a pretty noticeable drop after the top 3 (Moreno, Martinez, Groshans). That doesn't mean the system is bad, but it's not like the system is littered with talent that is close to contributing. We may look back on 2021 as one of the real opportunities to not only make the playoffs but go deep into it with this core. The fact that it was wasted due to (in large part) the manager, who isn't in any danger of getting replaced, is incredibly frustrating.

 

It's hard to say how long this competitive window is. I think the team should be good for at least as long as Vlad/Bo are under control but the East is very difficult. Expanded playoffs would certainly help.

 

There's no "window" unless you make it a "window" by trading all the upcoming prospects. Just try to field a competitive 90ish win team every year.

 

I'd rather have a 90 win team for 10 years that sneaks into the playoffs over a 105 win juggernaut for 2-3 years. Get in the playoffs and the 90 win team is just as likely to win as the Dodgers or Rays.

[Krylian]

There's no "window" unless you make it a "window" by trading all the upcoming prospects. Just try to field a competitive 90ish win team every year.

 

I'd rather have a 90 win team for 10 years that sneaks into the playoffs over a 105 win juggernaut for 2-3 years. Get in the playoffs and the 90 win team is just as likely to win as the Dodgers or Rays.

 

Gotta be active on the FA market or keep promoting your prospects then. Trading for impact will deplete the system fast

[Brownie19]

Cubbies

 

Looked like a dynasty and a couple of bad moves, injuries and prospect trades, and they suck balls again in short order.

 

Isn't this because they traded their prospects for proven players with some/short term control? I mean it's also because they blew their wad on Heyward who sucked tiddies.

[glory]

There's no "window" unless you make it a "window" by trading all the upcoming prospects. Just try to field a competitive 90ish win team every year.

 

I'd rather have a 90 win team for 10 years that sneaks into the playoffs over a 105 win juggernaut for 2-3 years. Get in the playoffs and the 90 win team is just as likely to win as the Dodgers or Rays.

 

I agree, but if the farm system is not churning out top talent on a regular basis, then that talent will have to come via free agency (reduces long term $ flexibility) or prospect capital. They got really, insanely lucky with Semien and Ray for $26m combined, but that's not the norm. Building a consistent 90 win team in the AL East with bozo as a manager, and as the young core gets more expensive + closer to free agency is not going to be easy. I trust Shatkins either way.

[Stangstag]

I agree, but if the farm system is not churning out top talent on a regular basis, then that talent will have to come via free agency (reduces long term $ flexibility) or prospect capital. They got really, insanely lucky with Semien and Ray for $26m combined, but that's not the norm. Building a consistent 90 win team in the AL East with bozo as a manager, and as the young core gets more expensive + closer to free agency is not going to be easy. I trust Shatkins either way.

 

The Rays manage to do it on a much smaller budget. They almost never trade prospects for established/bonafide major leaguers. Honestly the best thing for the franchise would probably be to trade one of Vladdy/Bo a year before free agency. Hang onto guys like Teo who broke out late and aren't highly-touted around the league. Continue trying to make some shrewd/low-risk FA signings.

 

The WORST thing for this team IMO would be to make another Berrios-type trade and fully torpedo the farm. A single season can be derailed due to a couple key injuries, I don't like the "all-in" method unless you're trading for players with multiple years of control.

[Stangstag]

Isn't this because they traded their prospects for proven players with some/short term control? I mean it's also because they blew their wad on Heyward who sucked tiddies.

 

Bingo. They traded Dylan Cease and Eloy Jimenez for a couple years of Quintana who then proceeded to blow chunks. And they trade Gleyber Torres for 3 months of Aroldis Chapman (yes they won a WS I know). 200 million on Heyward was an awful move. They payed 150 million for Lester which turned out alright. 120 million to Darvish which I bet they regret.

 

TBH the Jays are kinda heading down that same path. The Berrios trade is comparable to the Quintana trade (depending on how he pitches next year), and they gave 150 million to Springer (not sure how this contract will look by 2025). I would prefer if they didn't trade anymore high end prospects.