John Gibbons Thread (+ Venting)

[pickoff22]

If the rest of the Jays pitching staff can't be counted on to hold down a six run lead for three innings, you may as well just pack up the franchise. There is no argument that Price's ability was needed in that spot. Any argument must be done using soft factors.

 

Sure there's an argument. It has been discussed. Whether you agree with it or not is completely different.

[ProfessionalAtBat]

he was kinda lucky.... a lot of baserunners. one tater off Price and Gibby is the biggest idiot of all time

 

Gibbons is a HOF managers. He's ahead of his time

 

Youll see. Quit hating

[pickoff22]

The odds on winning were 97%, yes, play the odds

 

 

Astros had an even greater chance of winning earlier today (98.5%).

[pickoff22]

If you evaluate the expected performance of Blue Jays relievers and David Price using only hard factors, there is no way that using Price in that spot increased the team's World Series chances. The fraction of a percent of increased game 4 win expectancy (if it even is increased) does not exceed the increase in game 5 win expectancy created by having Price available for multiple innings. Meaningless playoff cliches like "your season is on the line" don't count here.

 

There are likely other factors though and I'll wait until Wednesday to evaluate this decision.

 

You can't evaluate things using only "hard factors" all the time. And cliches like that are valid, because your season IS on the line.

[polar bear]

I have totally changed my thoughts on Gibbons.i previously thought he should keep his job,if we won the WS

But after pulling RA after 4 2/3 was unforgivable.

Fecken Arsehole. I'm really angry.

.

[BTS]

I don't like this, but it's not Bannister bad. That moron has done his best to lose the series.

[pickoff22]

If you evaluate the expected performance of Blue Jays relievers and David Price using only hard factors, there is no way that using Price in that spot increased the team's World Series chances. The fraction of a percent of increased game 4 win expectancy (if it even is increased) does not exceed the increase in game 5 win expectancy created by having Price available for multiple innings. Meaningless playoff cliches like "your season is on the line" don't count here.

 

There are likely other factors though and I'll wait until Wednesday to evaluate this decision.

 

This point has some merit, the only thing that potentially could be questioned IMO is the decision to have him throw 50 pitches

[candymartinez]

Astros had an even greater chance of winning earlier today (98.5%).

 

You know that's totally irrelevant, right?

[pickoff22]

You know that's totally irrelevant, right?

 

Maybe to you, but not to Astro fans. s*** happens in baseball, I'd rather have the manager do what he can to avoid having it happen to the team I support.

[Jayzfan79]

That isn't what this is, though. Do you really think Price is significantly better than guys like Hendriks, Lowe and Hawkins on a per-inning basis?

 

it is the playoffs. in do or die you go with the best option available to continue. saving price for wednesday and burning both your top 2 starters is mind-boggling when you would be potentially lining up your 3 & 4 vs their 1 & 2. the only thing i question is putting in Price as early as he did. the only reason i could see would be this being Price's bullpen day and needing to keep him on schedule. you don't put in Price for 10-20 pitches and throw off his routine.

 

the only W in this game that counts is the end result. harping on Gibby for not letting Dickey get the W is retarded.

[pickoff22]

That isn't what this is, though. Do you really think Price is significantly better than guys like Hendriks, Lowe and Hawkins on a per-inning basis?

 

It is what it is though, the whole point is I want my best guy in to make sure we play another day. Obviously I think he's a better option otherwise I wouldn't be supporting the decision in the same manner. How much better isn't something I care about as much as others, clearly I am putting more value on doing what can be done to ensure a victory in an elimination game than you are. My philosophy in terms of approach in a do or die game aligns with Gibby's thought process.

[pickoff22]

Wednesday was guaranteed to be an elimination game too. Shouldn't John Gibbons aim to maximize Price's utility across both game four and game five?

 

With all due respect I think I've outlined my thinking quite clearly on this. If we didn't win today, we were guaranteed to not play in Wednesday's elimination game.

[Trouba95]

Didn't mind Price for an inning or 25-30 pitches but 50!!!!!!!!! I still don't like Gibby.

[Spoonovic]

If Stroman has a bad game 5 this will be the Blue Jays version of "What if Vince Carter didn't go to his graduation the morning of Game 7 vs the 76ers" thing.

[Frenchsoup]

Price unavailable for game 5 but ready to start game 1 is the only way this makes sense.

[glory]

Maybe to you, but not to Astro fans. s*** happens in baseball, I'd rather have the manager do what he can to avoid having it happen to the team I support.

 

The Jays were leading 7-1 and Dickey was pitching well.

 

Gibbons did not avoid a disaster. He made an absolutely pointless move and cost his starter a win (which means something to him I'm sure), all while not increasing the teams odds of winning that particular game.

 

It was Ned Yost levels of stupid.

[Harvey_Specter]

Four Thoughts on Today, defending the move:

 

1) We won the game and forced game 5. Be happy. Where were we at on Friday?

 

2) As soon as Cecil went down, having a good lefty reliever became much more important.

 

3) Given Price's numbers against Texas and in the postseason, you kind of prefer Stroman in Game 5 anyway. After giving Price some extra work in Game 4, you don't need to manage the egos as much as you would by telling Price straight up that you are going with Stroman ahead of him. This also gives you the ability to use Price in a smaller situational role in Game 5 if needed.

 

4) Dickey pitched great for months and was a key factor behind the Jays success. He deserved a post season start. This "short leash" start gives you some good innings from him, but also allows you the flexibility to use Price in the more valuable bullpen role, as noted above.

 

We got the win. We got Game 5. We got arguably our best starter for this situation going in Game 5. We have a fresh bullpen for Game 5. We can use Price as in a situational role in Game 5 against lefties which is valuable. If Price isn't needed in Game 5, you can rest him for starting Game 2 of the next series. Estrada would get Game 1, so you're good.

[art_vandelay275]

If Stroman has a bad game 5 this will be the Blue Jays version of "What if Vince Carter didn't go to his graduation the morning of Game 7 vs the 76ers" thing.

 

If Stro has a bad game and we loose, then I'd say we lost with the guy that gave us the best chance to win. No doubt Price is the more proven, established pitcher on the staff. But we are talking about match-ups and he's just never matched up well against the Rangers, both now as a Jay and when he was a Ray. It happens - bad matchups against teams and players. Price can win the Cy Young this year again and it's not going to change the fact that he doesn't matches up well with Rangers...

 

Even though we hit well against Hamels, I suspect he's going to pitch us tough. But I'll take my chances with Stro.

 

Like a lot of others, I didn't get why Gibby put Price in and I didn't get why he let him throw the number of pitches he did. But I'm not spending too much brain cells thinking about it. We won and Wed is coming. Now I can have my appetite back, be a little more productive at work and life in general and maybe actually able to get some sleep...

[Jayzfan79]

don't forget the possibility also with Dickey coming in for relief in Game 5 with the low pitch count and the fact he is a knuckler. Stroman with Dickey to follow will surely f*** up the bats all the while not causing any issue with pitching in the ALCS

[o2cui2i]

If Stro has a bad game and we loose, then I'd say we lost with the guy that gave us the best chance to win. No doubt Price is the more proven, established pitcher on the staff. But we are talking about match-ups and he's just never matched up well against the Rangers, both now as a Jay and when he was a Ray. It happens - bad matchups against teams and players. Price can win the Cy Young this year again and it's not going to change the fact that he doesn't matches up well with Rangers...

 

Even though we hit well against Hamels, I suspect he's going to pitch us tough. But I'll take my chances with Stro.

 

Like a lot of others, I didn't get why Gibby put Price in and I didn't get why he let him throw the number of pitches he did. But I'm not spending too much brain cells thinking about it. We won and Wed is coming. Now I can have my appetite back, be a little more productive at work and life in general and maybe actually able to get some sleep...

 

he could have waited one more out to give Dickey the win, but lots of people here have gotten mad a Gibbons for trying to get a pitcher a win. No time for personal stats in a do or die game.

[Trouba95]

Why does Gibby refuse to use Hendriks? Frustrating.

[art_vandelay275]

he could have waited one more out to give Dickey the win, but lots of people here have gotten mad a Gibbons for trying to get a pitcher a win. No time for personal stats in a do or die game.

 

In terms of pulling Dickey when he did, I can see his logic the way he explained in the PG. As for putting Price in, I guess he wants the lefty match up which is fine and we only found out after the game that Loup wasn't available. But then there was # of pitches...

 

As I said, we won and we have Wed to look forward to. Now I am just trying to get back to some sense of normalcy... at least for a day.

[nextyear]

I think John Gibbons' reasons for the way he used David Price in game 4 were just a smoke screen. David Price hasn't been hot in the playoffs and Gibbons wanted an excuse not to start him in game 5 (Gibbons wanted to start Stroman). Putting Price in in the 5th inning provide a somewhat plausible explanation for using him. If Gibbons waited until the 6th inning, the Blue Jays might have already completely blown the game open (the way they were hitting); at that point, Gibbons couldn't even pretend to have a reason for using Price.

 

In short, Gibbons didn't want to have to tell Price that he preferred having Stroman start in game 5 with Price pitching out of the bullpen.

 

David Price had a sheepish grin on his face when he came into the game after 4 2/3, probably because he realized that it made no sense and knew why Gibbons was really doing it.

 

This is just my feeble attempt to explain something that seems almost completely unexplainable.

[Nafro]

Simply put. RA Dickey has a tendency to give up home runs from time to time. Choo and Beltre were 4/4 against him yesterday. Another hit, and than I believe we were at their spots in the order. If they get hits, especially a home run...its 7-4 or even 7-5. You don't throw home playoff teams life preserver's, you step on their heads.

[nextyear]

Simply put. RA Dickey has a tendency to give up home runs from time to time. Choo and Beltre were 4/4 against him yesterday. Another hit, and than I believe we were at their spots in the order. If they get hits, especially a home run...its 7-4 or even 7-5. You don't throw home playoff teams life preserver's, you step on their heads.

 

That might be the explanation, as Gibbons has stated, but Price didn't pitch very well and Gibbons kept him in for 50 pitches.

[Nafro]

I think the problem was that he was only at twenty something pitches in the eighth. I was like this is perfect, he's going to be under 30 pitches and we got three innings out of him. Than Texas started to rally. You take Price out earlier but there was a lefty or two that came up. Do you want David Price against those lefties? Or Aaron Sanchez, who has struggled against lefties at times? Aaron Loup is not going to be used over Price. Unfortunately his pitches got all the way up to 50.

[glory]

Yes it does appear like Gibbons wanted to start Stroman in Game 5 but didn't want any controversy with Price, so he used Price in Gane 4, giving him an out to go with Stroman in 5. That's the only thing I can think of. Otherwise bringing Price in during a 7-1 game in the 5th when the starter was doing well makes no bleeping sense.

[G-Snarls]

Long write up on the decisions yesterday and lots of explanations from Gibby on why he did what he did:

 

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/154235368/david-price-relief-marcus-stroman-game-5-start?partnerId=ed-9816421-841785423

[CHRIS]

To me, Dickey looked like he was starting to get tired. Maybe it was the heat or maybe because he always looks like he's tired. I'd rather not wait until he gives up a bomb.

 

For as mediocre as Price's line looked yesterday, he accomplished the most important part. He got out of the 5th unscathed and pitched a clean 6th. By the time Texas started to rally, it was just too late. 7-3, 7-4 in the 5th or 6th inning is much different than 8-4 in the 8th, IMO.

 

I like pretty much everything about the move:

- LH mid 90s after a RH knuckle baller

- a guy who eats up 3 innings

- allows Price to pitch away from home where maybe he relaxes a bit

- allows Price to pitch in an unfamiliar role with a bit of a lead rather than an unfamiliar role in a tight game

 

I know some people are upset that he's not available for Game 5, but I'd rather have rested bullpen guys for that game pitching in a role they're familiar with.

 

I think Gibbons is doing a good job managing both the situation, and his people. As much as people want to say that Price is the ace and you need to live and die by him, the reality of the situation is that for whatever reason, he's not pitching as well right now as we would like him to pitch. I think ignoring that would be more irresponsible than throwing him out there for 50 pitches.

 

I'm with Gibbons on this one.

[G-Snarls]

Silver lining?

 

We won the game, and Stroman is starting game 5

 

...and...

 

I feel more confident with Stroman than Price right now. If Price hadn't been used up yesterday he would have gotten the start tomorrow.

 

Is that crazy? Am I the only one who feels this way?