John Gibbons Thread (+ Venting)

[Olerud363]

Gibbons stopped being able to use a bullpen this season (his best reliever in Cecil never pitches because he's being saved for the 9th). He does not value defense based on his lineup construction year to year (DH's in the outfield, 1B at 3B, Edwin in LF, etc). He's rigid enough to value personal bias over putting the best lineup on the field (benching Rasmus last September, using Navarro at DH, using Castro everyday out of the pen when he can't get AAA hitters out yet, etc). He puts Reyes at lead off every single game, just like Gaston liked keeping guys in certain spots.

 

What exactly is so smart about Gibbons? What does he do that others before him were inadequate at? Gibbons gets a free ride for no reason. His team's consistently underperform and he does nothing that no other s***** manager couldn't do. Has any player come out and credit Gibbons for their careers, like Bautista did with Cito? Did players take the next step with Gibbons managing due to any tangible coaching? A robot could do what Gibbons does, and probably better.

 

I am not completely disagreeing with you. However Gibbons is not the problem. Firing him will solve nothing, and will set the franchise back if some new guy gets the team to 83 wins (they finsihed hot!!) and AA and Beeston go on to year 4 --

 

if we don't win this year, we'll win next year, if we don't win next year we'll win the year after that, if we don't win the year after that we'll blame Gibbons and try again in 2016!!!

[Olerud363]

There are financial considerations as well. If we hire Dusty Baker, the toothpick budget goes through the roof, and we have no money to add a reliever at the deadline.

 

that would be awesome... 5 million to Dusty Baker and no more moves after that because of finances!!! For entertainment value it would be something.

[Boxcar]

Imagine they fire Gibby and replace him with Dusty Baker? I don't think people realize how bad it can get.

[Boxcar]

Not a good post at all. Basically just summing up the ******** that you've been saying. Not liking the facts will never change the facts.

 

When you post some, let me know. Handwavy ******** doesn't count.

[CHRIS]

5)Firing him wont solve all the problems but it will help

 

I think that's what a lot of people are hoping for, but we don't really know this.

 

I think pretty much every team thinks their manager is terrible. In my opinion, Gibbons is being asked to effectively manage a 25 man roster that has about 19-20 guys who should legitimately be on it, at the position they're being asked to play.

 

That being said, maybe firing Gibbons does provide some sort of: spark/wake up call/etc.

 

The flip-side though is what if the problem with this team is actually that they have a 25 man roster with minimal talent and depth? In that case all we're really doing is going further into the season without addressing the real problem that is plaguing this team.

[Boxcar]

2)Who's a worse manager?

 

Ned Yost

Walt Weiss

John Farrell

Don Mattingly

Whoever the hell is managing the Marlins right now

Dusty Baker

Cito Gaston

Buck Showalter

Chip Hale

Bruce Bochy

 

off the top of my head. I know a couple there aren't managing but I figure they would be candidates to replace Gibbons.

[BTS]

Lloyd McClendon!

[Boxcar]

Lloyd McClendon!

 

Right. Robin Ventura is probably worse too but his team is a dumpster fire so hard to say. Only guys I'd really give a s*** about having instead of Gibbons are Maddon and Ausmus.

 

E: actually, most of the NL managers are probably worse due to their propensity to call for bunts often.

[Captain Adama]

1) No ones saying he's a genius.

 

2)Who's a worse manager?

 

3) No ones saying he's the main reason the jays are struggling.

 

4) No ones irrationally criticizing anything. He f***s s*** up on a regular basis. Big things, small things and everything in between, always has.

 

4)He is terrible and that is obvious, to argue otherwise means you have no clue either.

 

5)Firing him wont solve all the problems but it will help.

 

6) Stroman,Saunders,Navarro,Santiago,Bautista,Travis,Reyes being hurt is the main reason for the poor performance to date. Gibbons is number two.

 

You listed 7 players being hurt and said gibbons was number two. How on earth does that make sense?

[pickoff22]

1) No ones saying he's a genius.

 

2)Who's a worse manager?

 

3) No ones saying he's the main reason the jays are struggling.

 

4) No ones irrationally criticizing anything. He f***s s*** up on a regular basis. Big things, small things and everything in between, always has.

 

4)He is terrible and that is obvious, to argue otherwise means you have no clue either.

 

5)Firing him wont solve all the problems but it will help.

 

6) Stroman,Saunders,Navarro,Santiago,Bautista,Travis,Reyes being hurt is the main reason for the poor performance to date. Gibbons is number two.

 

 

This is the perfect example of a post from someone who just hates Gibby so much it clouds any rationality they might have.

 

 

"Stroman,Saunders,Navarro,Santiago,Bautista,Travis,Reyes being hurt is the main reason for the poor performance to date. Gibbons is number two"

 

Really? Under-performance of our starters and BP is less to blame than Gibbons?

 

 

"Who's a worse manager?"

 

The fact you ask this implies you think Gibby is the worst manager, which is asinine. If you think that every single manager is better than Gibby then, well, you're delusional. If you follow and watch the game outside of just the Jays, you realize that every single team has instances where their fanbase questions decisions their manager makes. Doesn't mean the fans are always right and the managers are always wrong, but some managers make more questionable calls than others. And Gibby certainly doesn't top that list.

 

 

"4)He is terrible and that is obvious, to argue otherwise means you have no clue either."

 

Another statement with no depth whatsoever. Just exposes your bias. I may as well just add the word "not" between "is" and "terrible" and I have a statement that is just as compelling.

 

 

"4) No ones irrationally criticizing anything"

 

Yes, they do. The number of times Gibby has taken heat because of a bullpen move this year and then got shat on is ridiculous. People blame Gibby before the players in many instances.

 

 

"5)Firing him wont solve all the problems but it will help."

 

Really? No matter who we replace him with? Just toss anybody into the roll and we'll win right?

[BTS]

Ned Yost- World series runner up last year,fifth best record in baseball this season.

Bruce Bochy- 3 world championships in the last 5 years

Cito Gaston- 2 world championships.

Chip Hale- http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/mlb/diamondbacks/2015/03/28/bickley-rookie-manager-chip-hale-making-presence-felt-diamondbacks/70568192/

Buck Showalter- 8 times nominated manager of the year won 3 times

John Farrell- 2013 world champs

Don Mattingly- Top 8 in Manager of the year voting 3 times, runner up in 2013

Dusty Baker- 3 times manager of the year. Voted top 8 ten times.

 

Speaking of hand waving.

 

lol

[youngtea]

If Gibbons is an average coach than why retain him unless you plan to tank. The organization has to decide if we are tanking with our roster or getting rid of Gibbons and hiring someone more competent.

 

That's what us fans don't understand. There is no ultimate plan with this roster. It just seems like we are fielding a team with an average manager and hoping to make the playoffs. This has been the case for years now. For some reason some of you are willing to accept this. Maybe this is an owner issue and not prioritizing winning roster/ coach over treadmill. There doesn't seem to be a plan.

[pickoff22]

tldr

 

Translation - I got nothing

[glory]

I don't think anyone is saying he's a genius. There are better managers in the game of baseball and there are worse managers as well. People defend him against the argument that he's the main reason why the Jays have struggled in recent times. His haters are passionately against him and you constantly see people irrationally criticizing certain decisions, thus people call those people out. I'm not sure anyone is passionately "for" Gibby, but there are a lot of people who rant about him being terrible when that's just not the case. I would bet 90% of those who occasionally defend him would have no problem with him being replaced if a suitable candidate was found, but they also know it's not going to solve all of this team's problems.

 

I'm on board with firing AA so clearly Gibbons is not the only problem with this team or even the biggest one. However, that doesn't mean the Jays should be satisfied with him as manager when he doesn't get results and routinely makes game altering mistakes.

 

If people like Gibbons, that's fine. I liked Cito even though he made mistakes, so bias will exist, but some are suggesting that Gibbons is "the best manager in franchise history", and things like that. It's not based on reality. Even ignoring win/loss record, his managing style is entirely replaceable and talent rarely take steps forward due to anything he does. If that's the case, why keep going back to him?

 

Managers don't matter as much as talent, but bad managers can hurt a team. If Gibbons were average, then I'd still want him replaced, but he wouldn't be as bad as he is now.

[Olerud363]

Imagine they fire Gibby and replace him with Dusty Baker? I don't think people realize how bad it can get.

 

People would realize it in late 2016...

 

Donaldson pissed as hell like Rolen was... maybe traded

Stroman overworked in 2016... TJ by September gone for 2017.

 

Some crappy "winner" dude given 240 innings of 4.50 era ball...

 

Fading Bautista, Reyes and EE given 2000 plate appearances (this might happen no matter who...)

 

Pompey - gets it together... awesome year in Buffalo. 17 bad at bats in 2016, and hits .320 for Buffalo in 2016.

 

What else could happen?? Martin plays 155 tired games and hits .220 cause he's exhausted... some washed up proven closer saves 40 out of 55 chances...

 

oh yeah... don't find 40 save guys just lying around.

 

And can't disrespect Dusty so is given a "retirement tour" in 2017 and maybe 2018.

 

We are looking at 2030 if the next few months aren't handled right..

[Boxcar]

Ned Yost- World series runner up last year,fifth best record in baseball this season.

Bruce Bochy- 3 world championships in the last 5 years

Cito Gaston- 2 world championships.

Chip Hale- http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/mlb/diamondbacks/2015/03/28/bickley-rookie-manager-chip-hale-making-presence-felt-diamondbacks/70568192/

Buck Showalter- 8 times nominated manager of the year won 3 times

John Farrell- 2013 world champs

Don Mattingly- Top 8 in Manager of the year voting 3 times, runner up in 2013

Dusty Baker- 3 times manager of the year. Voted top 8 ten times.

 

Speaking of hand waving.

 

What I'm getting from this is that you think Dusty Baker is a good manager.

 

I actually look at their on field decisions where they consistently made errors. You are a simpleton, and so just look at win/loss and MOY nominations. Matt Williams won last year and he has Ian Desmond sac bunt regularly.

 

This just proves my point where manager quality has little impact on team performance. Ned Yost's teams were awful for years, is he a changed man? Or did his team just start performing better? We will never know!

[pickoff22]

If Gibbons is an average coach than why retain him unless you plan to tank. The organization has to decide if we are tanking with our roster or getting rid of Gibbons and hiring someone more competent.

 

That's what us fans don't understand. There is no ultimate plan with this roster. It just seems like we are fielding a team with an average manager and hoping to make the playoffs. This has been the case for years now. For some reason some of you are willing to accept this. Maybe this is an owner issue and not prioritizing winning roster/ coach over treadmill. There doesn't seem to be a plan.

 

 

Average or even below average managers have gone to the playoffs. Look at Ned Yost or Farrell. Happens all the time. Outside of the Maddon signing which manager has switched clubs that you would have wanted? Should we jump at Mike Redmond now that he's available? Switch Hale to manager? Go with an unknown like Butterfield or Alomar jr? Somehow convince Leyland to suit up again? Are there any managers available that we know for sure would be better than Gibby? At the end of the day many people overestimate the impact a manager has on the W/L record of a team - making a change just for the sake of making a change isn't necessarily going to lead to better results. People act as though it's a sure thing that anyone could do a better job than him and that just isn't the case.

[RealAccountant]

Not a good post at all. Basically just summing up the ******** that you've been saying. Not liking the facts will never change the facts.

 

Classic fear mentality

 

Imagine they will replace him.with someone worse

 

They could also replace him.with someone better

[pickoff22]

No, translation- You're clueless if you think Gibbons is even a mediocre manager and everything you've said has already been discussed in this thread.

 

I always find the most effective way to win a debate or prove my point is to simply call someone clueless if they don't agree with me, especially if they have provided many valid points against my line of thinking. Well executed.

[Boxcar]

Average or even below average managers have gone to the playoffs. Look at Ned Yost or Farrell. Happens all the time. Outside of the Maddon signing which manager has switched clubs that you would have wanted? Should we jump at Mike Redmond now that he's available? Switch Hale to manager? Go with an unknown like Butterfield or Alomar jr? Somehow convince Leyland to suit up again? Are there any managers available that we know for sure would be better than Gibby? At the end of the day many people overestimate the impact a manager has on the W/L record of a team - making a change just for the sake of making a change isn't necessarily going to lead to better results. People act as though it's a sure thing that anyone could do a better job than him and that just isn't the case.

 

Jim Leyland is so dumn. I would cry if he was manager.

[youngtea]

Average or even below average managers have gone to the playoffs. Look at Ned Yost or Farrell. Happens all the time. Outside of the Maddon signing which manager has switched clubs that you would have wanted? Should we jump at Mike Redmond now that he's available? Switch Hale to manager? Go with an unknown like Butterfield or Alomar jr? Somehow convince Leyland to suit up again? Are there any managers available that we know for sure would be better than Gibby? At the end of the day many people overestimate the impact a manager has on the W/L record of a team - making a change just for the sake of making a change isn't necessarily going to lead to better results. People act as though it's a sure thing that anyone could do a better job than him and that just isn't the case.

 

I think you missed my point. What is the end goal with our roster? Currently our roster isn't good enough to make up for a average manager. If we are keeping Gibbs let's tank and trade some players for prospects. If we think we can win go fire Gibbs and hire someone better. Otherwise this team is a treadmill without a plan.

[BTS]

If Gibbons is an average coach than why retain him unless you plan to tank. The organization has to decide if we are tanking with our roster or getting rid of Gibbons and hiring someone more competent.

 

That's what us fans don't understand. There is no ultimate plan with this roster. It just seems like we are fielding a team with an average manager and hoping to make the playoffs. This has been the case for years now. For some reason some of you are willing to accept this. Maybe this is an owner issue and not prioritizing winning roster/ coach over treadmill. There doesn't seem to be a plan.

 

How many above-average managers are available to be hired? How many average managers are available to be hired? If you can replace Gibby with an average manger, do you do it? Why?

[LTR]

Right. Robin Ventura is probably worse too but his team is a dumpster fire so hard to say. Only guys I'd really give a s*** about having instead of Gibbons are Maddon and Ausmus.

 

E: actually, most of the NL managers are probably worse due to their propensity to call for bunts often.

 

Brad Ausmus is the worst manager I have ever seen, lol. He might get better with experience but so so bad.

[glory]

Average or even below average managers have gone to the playoffs. Look at Ned Yost or Farrell. Happens all the time. Outside of the Maddon signing which manager has switched clubs that you would have wanted? Should we jump at Mike Redmond now that he's available? Switch Hale to manager? Go with an unknown like Butterfield or Alomar jr? Somehow convince Leyland to suit up again? Are there any managers available that we know for sure would be better than Gibby? At the end of the day many people overestimate the impact a manager has on the W/L record of a team - making a change just for the sake of making a change isn't necessarily going to lead to better results. People act as though it's a sure thing that anyone could do a better job than him and that just isn't the case.

 

Fear of the unknown doesn't make known mediocrity any more appealing. Or, it shouldn't.

 

Talent will make managers look better. I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with that. However, a manager still has to use that talent effectively. Ned Yost has an amazing bullpen and defense. He trusts his pen. He doesn't manage by splits, he uses his best guys. If Gibbons inherited that pen, he'd use Wade Davis for 0.1 of an inning and then bring in a lefty to face the lefty batter. If the Jays had a 1B prospect in the minors right now, they'd be playing him in RF in the Majors because Gibbons doesn't realize that defense has value. That's how he manages routinely. Managers can use talent properly or use them horribly, and that can make a difference.

 

The Jays might hire someone worse. They might hire someone worse than AA. Do you want to hold on to them in the event that the worst case happens? I've said before, Kevin Cash would have been my hire if he was available. If nothing else, he has some track record of identifying talent (Gomes) or developing talent (Carrasco). But it wouldn't take much to upgrade from the Gibster.

[Boxcar]

And you're a clueless f*** that thinks a managers contribution can be quantified by some formula. Let me guess...the difference between the best manager in the majors and the worst is 1 fWAR, 2 fWAR at the most. Right?

 

Anyone know a synonym for simpleton I can use here that sounds a little bit nicer? I don't want this to devolve into ad-hominem attacks.

[CHRIS]

And you're a clueless f*** that thinks a managers contribution can be quantified by some formula.

 

I would imagine it's the opposite, as formulae generally require the input of tangible, quantifiable parameters in order to work.

 

That said, I've worked under both good and bad managers, and I do believe different people in the same role can make a difference to outcome, to a certain extent. However, there isn't a manager in the game who can be given an outfield rotation of Pillar, Carrerra, Goins, Valencia and Colabello and produce a collective that excels both offensively and defensively. There isn't a manager in the game who can step in and make Dickey excellent again.

 

I believe that there is a possibility that someone could be brought in who may be able to do a better job of motivating, or a better job of holding players accountable for poor execution, or , but I also acknowledge that any gains in this area may well be negated by someone who knows less about platoon advantages, or is more careless with outs.

 

In my opinion, targeting Gibbons as step 1 in righting the ship only delays the inevitability; the realization that this team isn't deep enough outside of a core of 8-10 guys or so to maintain the kind of consistency required to go on a run that makes this team relevant.

[LTR]

I would imagine it's the opposite, as formulae generally require the input of tangible, quantifiable parameters in order to work.

 

That said, I've worked under both good and bad managers, and I do believe different people in the same role can make a difference to outcome, to a certain extent. However, there isn't a manager in the game who can be given an outfield rotation of Pillar, Carrerra, Goins, Valencia and Colabello and produce a collective that excels both offensively and defensively. There isn't a manager in the game who can step in and make Dickey excellent again.

 

I believe that there is a possibility that someone could be brought in who may be able to do a better job of motivating, or a better job of holding players accountable for poor execution, or , but I also acknowledge that any gains in this area may well be negated by someone who knows less about platoon advantages, or is more careless with outs.

 

In my opinion, targeting Gibbons as step 1 in righting the ship only delays the inevitability; the realization that this team isn't deep enough outside of a core of 8-10 guys or so to maintain the kind of consistency required to go on a run that makes this team relevant.

 

http://thumbs.newschoolers.com/index.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FJW68goC4_es%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&size=400x1000

[IronLadle]

I would imagine it's the opposite, as formulae generally require the input of tangible, quantifiable parameters in order to work.

 

That said, I've worked under both good and bad managers, and I do believe different people in the same role can make a difference to outcome, to a certain extent. However, there isn't a manager in the game who can be given an outfield rotation of Pillar, Carrerra, Goins, Valencia and Colabello and produce a collective that excels both offensively and defensively. There isn't a manager in the game who can step in and make Dickey excellent again.

 

I believe that there is a possibility that someone could be brought in who may be able to do a better job of motivating, or a better job of holding players accountable for poor execution, or , but I also acknowledge that any gains in this area may well be negated by someone who knows less about platoon advantages, or is more careless with outs.

 

In my opinion, targeting Gibbons as step 1 in righting the ship only delays the inevitability; the realization that this team isn't deep enough outside of a core of 8-10 guys or so to maintain the kind of consistency required to go on a run that makes this team relevant.

 

I agree that Gibbons isn't the biggest problem, but he is step 1. Firing Gibby doesn't involve trading away personnel, it's an easy way to shake things up without doing anything stupid. He's underperformed the last two years and is struggling again this year.

 

I don't understand this love affair with Gibby, he's had fair opportunity and now someone else should get a opportunity.

[CHRIS]

I don't understand this love affair with Gibby, he's had fair opportunity and now someone else should get a opportunity.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure how fair of an opportunity he's had. Maybe his time is up; I'm not trying to suggest that firing him is absolutely the wrong move, but I would like to see him manage a team where his general manager doesn't go into a slumber 20 men into the roster construction process. I'd like to see him manage a team that has some semblance of depth to it.

[IronLadle]

To be honest, I'm not sure how fair of an opportunity he's had. Maybe his time is up; I'm not trying to suggest that firing him is absolutely the wrong move, but I would like to see him manage a team where his general manager doesn't go into a slumber 20 men into the roster construction process. I'd like to see him manage a team that has some semblance of depth to it.

 

The pitching is s***, but Goins, Valencia, Colabello, Carrera, and Pillar have been pretty good.