Toritani signing?

[Deadpool]

My own personal feeling says I'd rather sign Toritani than Lowrie, as there's a lot less risk there. Frankly, I like the projections I've seen on Travis, and I don't want a $10M guy in his way if he plays out of his mind in AAA...

 

Also, Gruber, you're the first person I've seen suggest that he couldn't play SS or 3B, so where are you getting that information?

[Atothe]

Gruber came to defend his favourite, Gruber can you tell us how Goins become your baseball hero?

[Deadpool]

"Toritani, a 5-foot-10, 176-pound left-handed hitter with a .285 career batting average and some power, has spent his 11-year career with the Hanshin Tigers. He has played in 1,444 consecutive games over the last 10 seasons."

 

That's pretty cool...

[glory]

I wouldn't worry about him blocking Travis. He can always become a utility IF once Travis is ready, and Reyes will miss time eventually so he can cover short too.

 

I know nothing about this guy but I'll take your word on it. I'm down as long as it's not going to prevent some bullpen acquisitions.

[Angrioter]

That Asian swaggg. Boxy will love him

[z3r0s]

my favorite part of that is the hearts by Gibbons. oh Japan.

[gruber92]

He can't play a MLB SS is all I'm saying. Noodle arm.

[gruber92]

My own personal feeling says I'd rather sign Toritani than Lowrie, as there's a lot less risk there. Frankly, I like the projections I've seen on Travis, and I don't want a $10M guy in his way if he plays out of his mind in AAA...

 

Also, Gruber, you're the first person I've seen suggest that he couldn't play SS or 3B, so where are you getting that information?

Look it up, I did.

[gruber92]

What the hell is wrong with you?? How do you know if he's a major league short stop.

 

Research, try it sometimes. You argue like he can play a MLB SS. How do you know this may I ask?

[Ultimate]

He is a SS in Japan, while he may be a better fit at 2nd its not a stretch to assume that he could fill in at his natural position in case of an injury.

 

His numbers are significantly better than Kawasaki's in Japan, I would think theres a decent chance he could OPS 700-750 at the big league level. Sure there is some risk that he might not, but we would have other alternatives if that happens.

 

He is a left handed hitter, so we would also have the option of platooning him as we have several RH platoon options that could play 2nd.

[wardhenke1]

He can't play a MLB SS is all I'm saying. Noodle arm.

 

Give up mate. The sheeple have already decided that tortilla is better than anything else we have at 2B and are likely going to get and they find this completely acceptable. They will thus resort to the usual tactics to shut you up.

 

Personally I don't give a flying f*** what any of them think, especially when they resort to puerile name calling and outright obtuseness and imbecility in the vain hope of appearing intelligent, but I will say this: if the deal goes through I'll be watching and comparing and we'll all have a conversation at the end of the season. Unlike many of the goddamn geniuses on here, I have a very long memory.

[saskjayfan]

Give up mate. The sheeple have already decided that tortilla is better than anything else we have at 2B and are likely going to get and they find this completely acceptable. They will thus resort to the usual tactics to shut you up.

 

Personally I don't give a flying f*** what any of them think, especially when they resort to puerile name calling and outright obtuseness and imbecility in the vain hope of appearing intelligent, but I will say this: if the deal goes through I'll be watching and comparing and we'll all have a conversation at the end of the season. Unlike many of the goddamn geniuses on here, I have a very long memory.

 

I'm very interested in seeing Travis play and want him to get every opportunity to make the team. If the jays are going to sign an international, why don't they go for that kang guy...maybe he would cost too much.

[Olerud363]

Research, try it sometimes. You argue like he can play a MLB SS. How do you know this may I ask?

 

I don't see things as black and white as you do. If you had the choice between Ryan Goins "major league short stop" who has +1 WAR defense and -3 WAR offense and Hypothetical Joe Blow who has -1 WAR defense and 10 WAR offense. Who would you choose??

 

I am guessing you would choose your boy Goins because he is a "major league short stop".

 

"Major league short stop" is a meaningless term. Every player needs to be evaluated as a whole and how they fit in with the team.

 

I don't think he is a "major league short stop" because there is no such thing. Every player from EE to Derek Jeter to Ozzie Smith has a "value" as a short stop. Is EE a "major league" short stop?? I am guessing no. Is (was) Ozzie Smith a major league short stop?? I am guessing yes.

 

Now is Derek Jeter a major league short stop?? Based on what I heard Toritani is probably as good a short stop as Derek Jeter. His bat and "reputation" may not be up to an everyday job at short stop.... but he is not coming here for that. He is here to play second and fill in at short when Reyes is injured.

 

 

anyway here is a scouting report...

 

"As was the case with Nakajima, a lack of data makes it hard to tell if the award was justified or not, but the scouts seem to agree that Toritani is a plus fielder. His already strong arm — believed by some to be the best among contemporary shortstops — is augmented by his speed, allowing him to cover a lot of ground and gun down runners. He does, however, have a tendency to make throwing errors. Like other shortstops coming over from Japan, doubts will always linger about the fielding aspects of the position, regardless of how good or bad the player has been. An NL scout doubts that Toritani will stay at short if he comes to MLB: "I think he's a good player; he's solid…If an MLB team does decide to take him, I don't know if he'll be used as a shortstop. Maybe second base, maybe elsewhere."

[JaysAllMighty]

Give up mate. The sheeple have already decided that tortilla is better than anything else we have at 2B and are likely going to get and they find this completely acceptable. They will thus resort to the usual tactics to shut you up.

 

Personally I don't give a flying f*** what any of them think, especially when they resort to puerile name calling and outright obtuseness and imbecility in the vain hope of appearing intelligent, but I will say this: if the deal goes through I'll be watching and comparing and we'll all have a conversation at the end of the season. Unlike many of the goddamn geniuses on here, I have a very long memory.

 

It appears that you are not having a very good morning.

[Olerud363]

Give up mate. The sheeple have already decided that tortilla is better than anything else we have at 2B and are likely going to get and they find this completely acceptable. They will thus resort to the usual tactics to shut you up.

 

Personally I don't give a flying f*** what any of them think, especially when they resort to puerile name calling and outright obtuseness and imbecility in the vain hope of appearing intelligent, but I will say this: if the deal goes through I'll be watching and comparing and we'll all have a conversation at the end of the season. Unlike many of the goddamn geniuses on here, I have a very long memory.

 

Good for you. There is every chance we will be wrong on one guy. Baseball players are hard to project. The philosophy (advanced statistics, WAR) some people use is a philosophy designed to be correct over a large series of decisions.

 

If you use advanced analysis for every decision you will be right slightly more often then wrong and build a good team of 25 men.

 

If you use your philosaphy (I just know cause I'm a super-scout and that guy has a noodle arm) you will be wrong more often. But everybody (even a monkey randomly choosing guys) will be right sometimes.

 

So you can come back with your "long memory" and cherry pick your wins.

 

Look at Ryan Goins. Some people were wrong on him... but they don't have such a long memory. They refuse to even believe Ryan Goins is bad. And still say "if only given a chance to play 160 games Ryan Goins will get more WAR and raise his -1 WAR to +2 WAR"

[wardhenke1]

Good for you. There is every chance we will be wrong on one guy. Baseball players are hard to project. The philosophy (advanced statistics, WAR) some people use is a philosophy designed to be correct over a large series of decisions.

 

If you use advanced analysis for every decision you will be right slightly more often then wrong and build a good team of 25 men.

 

If you use your philosaphy (I just know cause I'm a super-scout and that guy has a noodle arm) you will be wrong more often. But everybody (even a monkey randomly choosing guys) will be right sometimes.

 

So you can come back with your "long memory" and cherry pick your wins.

 

Look at Ryan Goins. Some people were wrong on him... but they don't have such a long memory. They refuse to even believe Ryan Goins is bad. And still say "if only given a chance to play 160 games Ryan Goins will get more WAR and raise his -1 WAR to +2 WAR"

 

A fair reply. I can respond no better than Bob Ryan in this article however:

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/03/03/bob-ryan-declares-war-war/ErbD99zVKGfn1XjonlmBBK/story.html

[Governator]

If he doesn't produce a plethora of entertaining gifs like Kawasaki, I'll be disappointed.

[z3r0s]

A fair reply. I can respond no better than Bob Ryan in this article however:

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/03/03/bob-ryan-declares-war-war/ErbD99zVKGfn1XjonlmBBK/story.html

 

oh Bob Ryan... you found the linchpin of WAR, the replacement player... we were hoping nobody would thing about him because he doesn't exist. I guess he got us.

[Sammy225]

oh Bob Ryan... you found the linchpin of WAR, the replacement player... we were hoping nobody would thing about him because he doesn't exist. I guess he got us.

 

So your saying we should sign the replacement player???

[tercet]

Omg some guy from japan

 

maybe this guy could be the new international middle infielder that bts has a delusional crush on, ala hech in the past

[Pulk_Pull]

Well, the DERP around our offseason was seriously lacking (which points to a good job done by AA).

 

Glad to see this thread is making up for it...

[Angrioter]

The Jays are considered to have the inside track but the Orioles, Nationals and the Astros are also in the mix. The Astros would use him as their SS. The deal required is thought to be around 3/10.

[Frenchsoup]

The Jays are considered to have the inside track but the Orioles, Nationals and the Astros are also in the mix. The Astros would use him as their SS. The deal required is thought to be around 3/10.

 

 

I really hope we get this guy, seems like a cheap gamble. Also if he can play a solid SS that gives you some flexibility to move Reyes next year if he has a nice year.

[TheHurl]

He was part of the greatest Japanese College team in history (which included Ioki, Wada, Yoshida and I believe 4 others that went on to pro ball). Here are some pay service scouting reports.

 

Michael Street in 2012

 

The track record of NPB shortstops in MLB hasn’t been a good one, but Takashi Toritani seems ready to reverse that trend. Toritani had been making noise about becoming a free agent after the 2012 season, but he chose to remain with the Hanshin Tigers for another season. In the process, Toritani turned down a two-year deal in favor of a one-year contract, increasing speculation that he will test the waters before the 2014 season. Toritani’s .282 career batting average isn’t all that impressive, but he does have a 10.8 percent walk rate and has flashed more speed than power as he’s aged. Still, his offense and middling defense, as well as the history of Japanese shortstops, make him more likely to catch on in a utility role.

 

From A scout

"he's patient, he has some plate vision, but I don't see him stinging the ball like he used to. The ball doesn't jump off his bat like it did three or four years ago…and in my opinion his bat speed is falling off a little bit."

 

Steve Sypa in 2013

Like Nakajima, Toritani is a shortstop by trade. He also has experience at third base, having played there for the majority of his rookie season. As a shortstop, he is the owner of two Mitsui Golden Glove Awards, which he won in 2010 and 2011, and he has a shot at his third for his 2012 season.

 

As was the case with Nakajima, a lack of data makes it hard to tell if the award was justified or not, but the scouts seem to agree that Toritani is a plus fielder. His already strong arm — believed by some to be the best among contemporary shortstops — is augmented by his speed, allowing him to cover a lot of ground and gun down runners. He does, however, have a tendency to make throwing errors. Like other shortstops coming over from Japan, doubts will always linger about the fielding aspects of the position, regardless of how good or bad the player has been. An NL scout doubts that Toritani will stay at short if he comes to MLB: "I think he's a good player; he's solid…If an MLB team does decide to take him, I don't know if he'll be used as a shortstop. Maybe second base, maybe elsewhere."

 

From nomprojections (a site which specializes in trying to figure out if how NPB players will convert to MLB)

 

Both Toritani and Itoi could be moderately valuable players, provided they can stick at shortstop and center field, respectively. I don’t think either will hit as well as Norichika Aoki (Toritani could be pretty close), and Aoki has been a fairly average (~2 win) player in right field. So, if they’re going to provide much value above average, Itoi is going to have to stay in center field, and Toritani is going to have to be able to play shortstop of second base. As far as comparisons to MLB players this year, at short Toritani would likely be similar to a slightly better Yunel Escobar with the bat, but much worse in the field, though it’s unknown by how much. At second, Toritani would pretty much be Daniel Murphy this season, but with less power and more on base skills. If he could field either position well enough, he could be a productive player. Itoi with the bat in center would be something like Jon Jay or Denard Span, which is great if he could field like Span, and not so great if he fielded like Jay.

[JaysRap]

I really hope we get this guy, seems like a cheap gamble. Also if he can play a solid SS that gives you some flexibility to move Reyes next year if he has a nice year.

 

I just want to win the bidding. Feels good to win.

[Olerud363]

A fair reply. I can respond no better than Bob Ryan in this article however:

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/03/03/bob-ryan-declares-war-war/ErbD99zVKGfn1XjonlmBBK/story.html

 

I actually agree with Bob Ryan to a point. WAR is not gospel. Even in calculating WAR there are assumptions and approximations.

 

WAR is a form of machine intelligence. It is trying to translate human thinking into 1 number.

 

Trout vs. Cabrera 2012 is a perfect example.

 

The Trout crowd would say - They were almost even as hitters, but Trout played a good center field vs. Cabrerra a bad third base. Trout was 49-5 as a base stealer. Trout played in a tougher hitters park.

 

WAR just translates that thinking to a number. And it seems like sound thinking to me.

 

I mean people will think Ryan Goins can make up for a .270 on base percentage with defense, "little things", and grit. But they don't think Trout can edge Cabrera based on the same?

[labadee]

A fair reply. I can respond no better than Bob Ryan in this article however:

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/03/03/bob-ryan-declares-war-war/ErbD99zVKGfn1XjonlmBBK/story.html

 

Bob ryan *shudders*. Didnt hear of him until he went on PTS and instantly lost all respect for that man

[labadee]

I'm very interested in seeing Travis play and want him to get every opportunity to make the team. If the jays are going to sign an international, why don't they go for that kang guy...maybe he would cost too much.

 

what's the deal with this guy anyways? wasn't he supposed to be posted during the winter meetings? I reckon he'd cost a bit much

[Dr. Dinger]

I'm really surprised we're even negotiating with Boras, this is a good thing.

[Boxcar]

With all due respect, that doesn't sound like it would be too difficult. And I did not say anything about a reliever genius, but bra-f***ing-vo for joining in the chorus. Oh and I couldn't give two shits about what you think or assume I think. I've been supporting the BJ's for over 25 years and remember the last time we won a world series with a pretty good 2B. But heh, who cares right?

 

You can always tell by the username. This stunnerd is trapped in the past with those other nostalgia named imbeciles. Why don't they sign Alomar!? I remember him being a really good 2B!