BP: Aaron Sanchez

[Nox]

how about jesse chavez....pitchers come out of no where all the time. They make mechanical adjustments, they learn new pitches...they get confidence.

 

I'm confused. So you're saying that Sanchez has to alter something fundamentally like Jesse Chavez before he becomes an actual good pitcher? Well, sure. Ok. But you could say the same for basically any pitcher that throws 92+ (of which there are quite a few).

 

Him actually doing so effectively is not something you should expect to happen (despite the fact that it can happen).

 

If AA trades Sanchez and in 2 years he turns into a stud, you'll be the first one posting on this board about what AA was an idiot and you knew all along how great his stuff was and that he would be a good pitcher.

 

Oh please. Find me one instance where I've reacted similarly to the above scenario. Don't be an idiot.

[Nox]

Jays can't afford to trade any more of their young high upside arms.

 

Why not?

 

What if in an alternate universe Tampa Bay was run by Ruben Amaro and he offered Zobrist for the ace in waiting Aaron Sanchez. Why would you ever not do that deal from a Jays perspective?

[kgm1]

I'm confused. So you're saying that Sanchez has to alter something fundamentally like Jesse Chavez before he becomes an actual good pitcher? Well, sure. Ok. But you could say the same for basically any pitcher that throws 92+ (of which there are quite a few).

 

Him actually doing so effectively is not something you should expect to happen (despite the fact that it can happen).

 

 

 

 

Oh please. Find me one instance where I've reacted similarly to the above scenario. Don't be an idiot.

 

How about the Jose Molina VS JP Arencibia .

[kgm1]

Why not?

 

What if in an alternate universe Tampa Bay was run by Ruben Amaro and he offered Zobrist for the ace in waiting Aaron Sanchez. Why would you ever not do that deal from a Jays perspective?

 

i wouldn't do it for a half year of Zobrist . The Jays have to have some one to replace the Buehrles, Dickeys and Happs. What is the failure rate of rookie pitchers even those succeeding at AA 60% ? So you need 10 good prospects to fill 3 spots . Teams just can't keep trading their young pitching or position prospects or you wind up like Amaro,s Phillies.

[kgm1]

You want a 2nd baseman take a salary dump like Martin Prado who will cost you next to nothing if you take on the salary.

[Nox]

i wouldn't do it for a half year of Zobrist . The Jays have to have some one to replace the Buehrles, Dickeys and Happs. What is the failure rate of rookie pitchers even those succeeding at AA 60% ? So you need 10 good prospects to fill 3 spots . Teams just can't keep trading their young pitching or position prospects or you wind up like Amaro,s Phillies.

 

Zobrist has 1.5 years left (at a very, very attractive $7.5M per). He has a club option next year that you might not have noticed.

[Nox]

You want a 2nd baseman take a salary dump like Martin Prado who will cost you next to nothing if you take on the salary.

 

Zobrist is twice the player Prado is and costs less from a salary perspective. He's definitely worth giving up an asset(s) for, especially when you consider how well he'd fit onto the Jays' current roster.

[kgm1]

Zobrist is twice the player Prado is and costs less from a salary perspective. He's definitely worth giving up an asset(s) for, especially when you consider how well he'd fit onto the Jays' current roster.

 

Definitely the better player and NO i did not look just thought he was an FA MY BAD>

Still the Rays will want more to trade him in the division. Let the Giants have him for Kyle Crick if that's what he is worth.

Prado costs only money and I just can't trade our young pitching. Not that my concern means s*** . If AA has a shot i'm scared he will gut the minors and the 2016 jays will be the next Phillies

[Nox]

If AA has a shot i'm scared he will gut the minors and the 2016 jays will be the next Phillies

 

Despite me being pro Zorilla, I share your above concern.

[DuckDuckGose]

He doesn't miss bats and doesn't throw strikes. This is exactly what you don't want in a high leverage spot.

 

He's a bucket of yuck as a prospect. I can't fathom how anybody would look at that delivery, look at his results and then consciously value him over Stroman or Norris.

 

He's throwing strictly FBs until the 5th inning of every game. It's no surprise the K rates aren't great when he doesn't get to throw his best swing and miss pitch for over half the game.

 

Control is trending upwards as well. He's actually able to work in the bottom of the zone consistantly this year.

 

Obviously done flaws to his game but he's still a very good prospect.

[DuckDuckGose]

That's not just coming from me. It's not too hard to find Klaw et al, talking about him needing to change some things to let his obvious arm talent flourish.

 

Less than 8 Ks per 9 is not really not exciting at the AA level these days. Combine that with the ghastly command and the overall results have not been good.

 

 

 

Quit putting scouts on a pedestal. Once a player has reached AA/AAA their usefulness rapidly approaches 0.

 

It's an unorthodox delivery but he repeats it and has filthy stuff. Nothing in his mechanics suggests injury concerns or anything like that. So who cares?

[GD]

He's throwing strictly FBs until the 5th inning of every game.

 

Where are you seeing this?

[DuckDuckGose]

Zobrist is twice the player Prado is and costs less from a salary perspective. He's definitely worth giving up an asset(s) for, especially when you consider how well he'd fit onto the Jays' current roster.

 

Sanchez for Zobrist 1:1 would be a no brainer

[DuckDuckGose]

Where are you seeing this?

 

Been in a couple reports now. Once was a quote from Sanchez or a coach (I forget which)

 

From the original post;

 

In this outing the righty didn’t throw a secondary offering until the fourth inning,

[DuckDuckGose]

Exactly. It's repeatable. Which is why the ball goes everywhere. Because it's repeatable. He repeats not repeating himself over and over again.

 

The issue here is you don't understand what "repeatable delivery" means. It means your mechanics are clean ... it means your body is at the same place, at the same time, each time you throw the ball. It means your arm slot and release point stays the same. It means you have control and command.

 

He has the exact opposite of a repeatable delivery. Because he does virtually nothing with his body during said motion ... and it's all generated from crazy arm action, which is just hanging out there by itself. He can't maintain the same arm slot or release point. Thus, he can't repeat his delivery. Thus, he's wild as f***.

 

And, yes, relying solely on crazy, unsupported violent arm action SCREAMS injury concern.

 

He has a short stride. The arm action is loose and not concerning at all. Actually bodes well for him that he can hit mid 90's so effortlessly. He's had trouble staying down in the zone because he stays upright and didn't get on top of the ball. It's an issue but improving.

[flafson]

Zobrist is last in the AL hitting with RISP, he is something like 6 for 65.

[Nox]

He's throwing strictly FBs until the 5th inning of every game.

 

Even if that's true, which I doubt (other than a start or two), would that not make his walk rate even more terrible? 5 per 9 while only trying to throw strikes with your fastball is past ominous, it's bad.

[DuckDuckGose]

Even if that's true, which I doubt (other than a start or two), would that not make his walk rate even more terrible? 5 per 9 while only trying to throw strikes with your fastball is past ominous, it's bad.

 

It does make the bb rate worse and his command is terrible but it's improving. I wonder if he'd get more swings if guys knew they might not get another FB. Can also get his CB in the zone regularly so he might be able to increase his walk rate by throwing it more (pure conjecture there).

 

I'd understand the concern if he was in his mid 20s or stagnated but he's 21 and getting better. Not a top 10 prospect but still a lot to like.

[Nox]

It does make the bb rate worse and his command is terrible but it's improving.

 

I still don't understand why multiple people think one outing of throwing a proper amount of strikes leads to the statement "his command is improving".

 

I also don't understand why you don't think he has stagnated in his development. He's been promoted but it's not like he's ever done anything to warrant it.

[DuckDuckGose]

I still don't understand why multiple people think one outing of throwing a proper amount of strikes leads to the statement "his command is improving".

 

I also don't understand why you don't think he has stagnated in his development. He's been promoted but it's not like he's ever done anything to warrant it.

 

His last 2 AA starts were more promising than his last outing. Not saying that's a significant sample but it'smore than just one start. He's also been decent in AAA outside of his debut.

 

Additionally I say he hasn't stagnated because his control is improving. He's doing a decent job of keeping the ball down this year and better than at any other point in his career. Needs to command the ball in the zone a lot better though.

[Nox]

Not saying that's a significant sample but it'smore than just one start. He's also been decent in AAA outside of his debut.

 

Before last night's start, in AAA 12 BBs in 13.1 innings. Meaningless sample but it certainly does not lend any evidence towards the case of Sanchez improving his command/control.

[Daniel Labude]

Sanchez for Zobrist 1:1 would be a no brainer

 

No....just no

[Nox]

No....just no

 

Easy there TollesonFan92

[Atothe]

Improving over what? Improving when? Over what time frame?

 

He has exactly as many IP in 2014 (so far) as he did in 2013. He has walked 13 more batters in 2014 than he did in 2013. His BB rate in 2014 is the worst since 2010. His BB rate is higher in AAA than it was in AA this year.

 

Where's the improvement?

 

He obviously means from his previous start to the most recent one.

[Daniel Labude]

Easy there TollesonFan92

 

Wtf...Norris or Sanchez will not be traded for a mediocre 2B, its as simple as that....now for price and zobrist, maybe

[saskjayfan]

Improving over what? Improving when? Over what time frame?

 

He has exactly as many IP in 2014 (so far) as he did in 2013. He has walked 13 more batters in 2014 than he did in 2013. His BB rate in 2014 is the worst since 2010. His BB rate is higher in AAA than it was in AA this year.

 

Where's the improvement?

 

What adjustments has he made this year? Oh wait, you have no clue. You ever watch a golfer go through a swing change? The results get worse before they get better. I have no clue what he's been working on or what kind of weather conditions he may have had to deal with. All your posts are full of conjecture....

[Atothe]

I don't think he made an adjustment. Kratz happened to be demoted and bam he was throwing strikes. I like that pairing, maybe something comes of it maybe not.

[saskjayfan]

Huh? I posted that his command sucks and is not getting better, based on numerical evidence. How is that conjecture? I spoke about basic biomechanics/anatomy/physics truths. How is that conjecture?

 

The adjustment he has made is to continue to suck, and suck more than before. Anything else is conjecture.

 

You are basing your assessments solely on numbers. You copied and pasted biomechanics assessments other actual scouts with knowledge have made. You aren't watching him pitch. You don't see his side sessions. You don't know what he may or may not be working on. As mentioned, when you make mechanical adjustments, you aren't better day 1. The reality is most often you become worse off the get go when you make mechanical changes whether it be golf, tennis, baseball..etc. How has he progressed with these changes? His last two outings have been better....was he lucky, or is he getting better? You have no f***ing clue, because you haven't seen him pitch....thus the conjecture attached to your opinions. Your opinions do not have all the required knowledge to come to the conclusions you are.

 

What's my opinions on the guy? I have none, because I haven't watched him pitch. I can have a soft opinions on the guy based on the information that is available. Sure the walks and command issues are disconcerting, but is it enough for me to write off a 21 year old kid with his velocity and movement....absolutely not.

[kgm1]

If we keep trading our young talent we will soon wind up as the AL East version of the Phillies only without their long playoff run. Lots of cases where pitchers took a long time to gain their command. Randy Johnson walked over 5 per 9 age 25 thru 28 .

[saskjayfan]

No, actually, I'm not.

 

 

 

No, actually, I did not. I posted general knowledge about a proper delivery, and specific kinds of improper deliveries, and their adverse affects. Well, I say it's general knowledge, but it's apparent a lot of people don't know it (sort of like the old adage of common sense not being very common).

 

 

 

I have watched him pitch.

 

 

 

Irrelevant.

 

 

 

Again, irrelevant.

 

 

 

He needs to make wholesale mechanical adjustments if he wants to shake the assessment that his delivery is FUBAR and will lead to command/injury issues. I don't need to see if he's trying to land a couple inches left or right, or brake his hands a smidge later. That's all minutia when the issue is larger scale.

 

 

 

The outing before his last one, he walked 4 in 4.1 innings. That's not better.

 

 

 

You seem to be confusing the entirety of the issue here. I have no reason to believe he's undergoing mechanical changes. I don't know why you keep bringing that up. You may as well have brought up the possibility that he's undergoing a sex change operation, and we don't know the effects of the hormone injections, so we can't speculate about how he'll come out on the other side. It's silliness. But you did accuse me of conjecture ... when YOU are the one conjecturing all up in this mother, while I'm just stating basic truths and facts.

 

 

 

That's your issue. Go argue with yourself.

 

 

 

That's super. So you should say absolutely nothing on the topic. And how do you know if he has any velocity at all? Or movement? After all, with these mysterious possible changes, he could be throwing eephus pitches, or straight as an arrow. Because you haven't seen him pitch. And you can't just trust numbers, right? Or the words of scouts, right?

 

Your whole criticism of my criticism has been entirely nonsensical. Just stop.

 

that's a rather long winded response for someone who tells me to go argue with myself..lol. You've seen him pitch. That's great. Yes I saw him pitch in spring training too. Watching clips on youtube or a few innings in spring training isn't exactly how mlb teams operate when evaluating talent.

 

How do I know about him as a pitcher. I don't. I clearly stated that I don't have enough information. Clearly you would have to have watched him throw thousands of pitches this year, so like I said before...you don't know s*** and he had 4 walks the previous outing, but he also had 7Ks in 4.1 innings.

 

I get it Moogy....you're never wrong.