BlueJays pick up 2014 options on Lind, Janssen and DeRosa, decline option on Kawasaki

[Laika]

I think there's pretty much zero chance of this happening this year. I can see him being included in trade, but I'd be shocked if they buy him out.

 

Me too. 99% chance he's on the bench. He might even get a part time 2B role... who the f*** even knows!

[saskjayfan]

It's honestly simple.

 

I'm fairly sure AA doesn't know that DeRosa is replacement level/worse. His clubhouse leadership and above-.700 OPS probably make AA think that he actually contributes to 2 or 3 wins. Assuming AA even thinks of players contributing wins.

 

Are you guys serious....what 25th man on any team in the mlb making 750k a year is a difference maker and a positive war player? Deroso posted an above average .733 OPS for the last bench guy on a roster....he likely won't get half the at bats he had this year assuming the jays don't get similar amounts of injuries. The Jays already have 120 million dollars committed....so are you going to sign for 750k in baseball who's going to be a positive war player? Or do you want to commit 4 million dollars to that 25th player....sure let's spend 3 million dollars more on a player who won't play and shave that amount off a the amount we have to spend on a starter who will be asked to be a regular contributor...that makes a whole lot of sense.

 

How is picking up derosa's option a bad thing. He played well this year, he adds intangibles and who are you going to get for 750k who is going to be better...

[kgm1]

We all knew this was going to happen so I see no sense in crying over it . My only hope is they somehow work a deal with Kawasaki on a minor league contract so we keep him in the system.

As for Izturis , He'll either be on the bench or the starting 2nd baseman . It is all about budget and the many holes that need to be filled

[John_Havok]

The point isn't so much that they br ought back DeRosa, but that they did it in like the first day of the offseason, when the kind of player he is is readily available for next to nothing all through the offseason, and if any effort was put in, they could likely find someone to proved far more value at similar cost.

 

0.1 WAR bench players shouldn't be your first offseason move.

[saskjayfan]

Kawasaki was set to make 250K more I believe someone said? Kawasaki was worth 0.8 war, DeRosa worth 0.1 war. That is just one example from inside the organization, and I am sure there is a few more that could be had. Mark Ellis was 1.8 war last year, and just had his option declined today by LA.

 

 

War is voodoo science...you guys speak as though it's gospel.....It is not standardized and has wild margins of error for defensive statistics...I'll take Derosa and his leadership and offense any day of the week....Derosa played hurt for a few years....If Derosa can post a .700+OPS in 100ish or less at bats...he's my man. Derosa is a 4.2 war psychologist....

[Abomination]

Kawasaki was set to make 250K more I believe someone said? Kawasaki was worth 0.8 war, DeRosa worth 0.1 war. That is just one example from inside the organization, and I am sure there is a few more that could be had. Mark Ellis was 1.8 war last year, and just had his option declined today by LA.

 

Ellis will cost a hell of a lot more too, and wouldn't likely be paid to be a bench player. Not comparing the same thing there. I have to assume the Jays want someone on the bench with a little bit of positional flexibility and thump. Any lower pay player with those abilities will likely come with some kind of downside. I would have preferred we just keep Kawasaki and forget about the power, but this isn't the kind of thing to rant over imo. Heck, DeRosa may still retire anyhow.

[saskjayfan]

Easy. He's a replacement-level player with really no upside to be better than that. If we're going cheap for the 25th spot, it would be nice to have a player who could feasibly throw 1-2 WAR in the board.

 

CHEMISTRY, CHEMISTRY, CHEMISTRY.....every player uses this word in his interview after winning the world series....and you don't understand why it's important to bring Derosa back..If Fangraphs had a category for leadership you guys would be all over Derosa, but since there is no statistical measure for the intangibles Derosa brings you guys can't comprehend why it's important to have a guy like him on your team, but that doesn't mean it's not important.

[saskjayfan]

You sound like this is a team coming off 90+ wins and not consecutive sub-75 win seasons. We need better players.

 

we need better starting pitching and better starting positional play...I could care less who the players are who are going to get less than 100 at bats in the season...and I'm looking for different things out of these players than the starters....I might want a speed guy, a power bat a veteran guy a defensive specialist...it all depends on what you are lacking.....this team lacks leadership.

 

750k for a veteran is nothing...who are you going to get to play for that...even Kawasaki was going to cost more....name me another veteran guy who posted .733 OPS that you can get for 750k.....it's not going to happen...

 

You have a pool of money...it's not unlimited like the Yankees....there's a budget...you can spend 4 mil on a bench player and 10 mil on a staring pitcher...or 13.25 mil on a starter and 750K on a bench player.....I'll choose the latter every time...especially when you are getting the leadership derosa brings...and the red sox had 69 wins last year...bringing in solid chemistry veteran guys worked for them.

[Abomination]

Assuming DeRosa's intended role doesn't involve ever picking up a glove, there are some interesting free agents that could come cheap and have some upside: Jeff Baker, Kevin Youkilis, Mark Reynolds, Lance Berkman, and Mike Morse should all come on cheap 1-year deals, hit from the right side, and have potential to contribute 1-2 wins with a higher floor than DeRosa.

 

Yeah, some of those could be interesting, although I doubt any are all that cheap. Baker made 1.75M last year and will likely get a decent raise after the season he had (which I doubt he comes close to repeating). He's probably basically DeRosa offensively and defensively but teams would be buying high. Youkilis will probably get 4 or 5M and a starting job (not that he necessarily deserves it). He would be an ideal platoon mate for Lind though. Reynolds will probably get 5-6M or more and a starting spot. Berkman will probably be 5+ million. Morse I'm not sure about. He's a perfect buy-low candidate if some team doesn't do something stupid with him, but even then he's probably 2.5-3 million.

[Anemic0ffense]

I actually had a good night tonight, then I read the posts in this thread and became depressed... Now I know why I don't come here as much anymore

 

It's not you guys, it's just the harsh reality of how awful this team is being run

[Anemic0ffense]

we need better starting pitching and better starting positional play...I could care less who the players are who are going to get less than 100 at bats in the season...and I'm looking for different things out of these players than the starters....I might want a speed guy, a power bat a veteran guy a defensive specialist...it all depends on what you are lacking.....this team lacks leadership.

 

750k for a veteran is nothing...who are you going to get to play for that...even Kawasaki was going to cost more....name me another veteran guy who posted .733 OPS that you can get for 750k.....it's not going to happen...

 

You have a pool of money...it's not unlimited like the Yankees....there's a budget...you can spend 4 mil on a bench player and 10 mil on a staring pitcher...or 13.25 mil on a starter and 750K on a bench player.....I'll choose the latter every time...especially when you are getting the leadership derosa brings...and the red sox had 69 wins last year...bringing in solid chemistry veteran guys worked for them.

 

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bookshop/302339/698217/698217_original.gif

[Boxcar]

Are you guys serious....what 25th man on any team in the mlb making 750k a year is a difference maker and a positive war player? Deroso posted an above average .733 OPS for the last bench guy on a roster....he likely won't get half the at bats he had this year assuming the jays don't get similar amounts of injuries. The Jays already have 120 million dollars committed....so are you going to sign for 750k in baseball who's going to be a positive war player? Or do you want to commit 4 million dollars to that 25th player....sure let's spend 3 million dollars more on a player who won't play and shave that amount off a the amount we have to spend on a starter who will be asked to be a regular contributor...that makes a whole lot of sense.

 

How is picking up derosa's option a bad thing. He played well this year, he adds intangibles and who are you going to get for 750k who is going to be better...

 

Think the 2013 Indians, Rays or Rangers would have liked 1 extra win?

[Boxcar]

we need better starting pitching and better starting positional play...I could care less who the players are who are going to get less than 100 at bats in the season...and I'm looking for different things out of these players than the starters....I might want a speed guy, a power bat a veteran guy a defensive specialist...it all depends on what you are lacking.....this team lacks leadership.

 

750k for a veteran is nothing...who are you going to get to play for that...even Kawasaki was going to cost more....name me another veteran guy who posted .733 OPS that you can get for 750k.....it's not going to happen...

 

You have a pool of money...it's not unlimited like the Yankees....there's a budget...you can spend 4 mil on a bench player and 10 mil on a staring pitcher...or 13.25 mil on a starter and 750K on a bench player.....I'll choose the latter every time...especially when you are getting the leadership derosa brings...and the red sox had 69 wins last year...bringing in solid chemistry veteran guys worked for them.

 

Lmfao, the Sox lead baseball in WAR.

[Stangstag]

But guys, if not DeRosa, who on the team will provide those VETRIN PRESENTS?

[saskjayfan]

Lmfao, the Sox lead baseball in WAR.

 

The sox also had more war than the orioles last year and won 69 games....I think you get more cumulative wins by putting more money to players who will actually play and less money to the bench players when you are on a budget...if you are the Yankees...sure go spend 5 mil on a guy who will get 70 to 100 at bats..

[G-Snarls]

The sox also had more war than the orioles last year and won 69 games....

 

Interesting stat

 

A lot of that WAR packed up and went to the Dodgers in August too

[saskjayfan]

The Sox were 16th in position player WAR and 20th in pitching WAR. They weren't a very good team and it showed in their record. That's especially interesting?

 

The Angels in 2012 lead the league in WAR by a wide margin and missed the playoffs, while the orioles finished 24th in WAR just behind the blue jays who finisihed 23rd in WAR...and they made the playoffs....these aren't projections..these are after the fact calculated numbers.....yeah...WAR is completely reliable....or maybe not so much..

[saskjayfan]

Randomness plays an enormous factor in deciding baseball games, something that is undeniable. Baseball teams get lucky. The Orioles were the most fortunate team ever in one-run games.

 

You're never going to get WAR figures to line up perfectly, nor should you want to. To use a cliche: that's why the games aren't played on paper.

 

If you really want to know how many wins a team did win, there's one stat to look at. Wins. If you're curious to know how baseball teams win games, WAR is the best stat to look at.

 

St. Louis was 11th in WAR.....they missed the I jerk off to fangraphs world series. WAR firstly has no standardized calculation and two has extremely high margins of error within some of the calculations that contribute to WAR. This seems to be the thing many don't acknowledge. Anyone who has taken post secondary stats should realize this. Yet, so many on here will give you a defacto 100% iron clad opinion on a player...all they have to do is google the players fan graphs war and done....you guys would all make perfect GMs because you have heard of fangraphs.....WAR is not without any merit or without limitiations...when it pertains to a bench guy like Derosa it's useless imo...yet you guys use it to declare AA is a moron which is ridiculous. AA is a moron because he put his faith in JPA as the teams catcher...because he signed maicer, traded gomes.....but not because he picked up derosa's option.

[CHRIS]

Part of the problem is our terrible AAA depth, and part of the problem is terrible construction of the 25-man.

 

I don't know how anyone can doubt this. We just came off a season where Lawrie and Reyes get hurt at the same time and we we're running around like chickens with our heads cut off trying to find guys that could play infield.

 

Ugh, this team. I know there's still time to not give DeRosa a roster spot, and there's still time to buy out Izturis and forget that deal ever happened, but I know deep down that neither of these things are going to happen.

[GeorgiaPeach]

He likes DeRosa as third base insurance,but i'm hoping DeRosa starts the year in Buffalo.

 

There's no way DeRosa plays in Buffalo.

 

Majors or retired.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Alex?

 

I would've gone with jaybooster. And his handle also falls in line with my guess.

[GeorgiaPeach]

CHEMISTRY, CHEMISTRY, CHEMISTRY.....every player uses this word in his interview after winning the world series....and you don't understand why it's important to bring Derosa back..If Fangraphs had a category for leadership you guys would be all over Derosa, but since there is no statistical measure for the intangibles Derosa brings you guys can't comprehend why it's important to have a guy like him on your team, but that doesn't mean it's not important.

 

So if winning teams love chemistry and that's all they talk about, why does defensively challenged and offensively limited Johnny Gomes who oozes chemistry get bounced around from team to team and not get retained or stay with the teams that win? You'd think the attitude, love and grind for the game would be coveted and teams would snap him up and ink him to a long term extension.

 

I guess his TV dives, brutal OF play and limited offensive ability wears thin after awhile.

 

So how's that chemistry crucial again?

[GeorgiaPeach]

we need better starting pitching and better starting positional play...I could care less who the players are who are going to get less than 100 at bats in the season...and I'm looking for different things out of these players than the starters....I might want a speed guy, a power bat a veteran guy a defensive specialist...it all depends on what you are lacking.....this team lacks leadership.

 

750k for a veteran is nothing...who are you going to get to play for that...even Kawasaki was going to cost more....name me another veteran guy who posted .733 OPS that you can get for 750k.....it's not going to happen...

 

You have a pool of money...it's not unlimited like the Yankees....there's a budget...you can spend 4 mil on a bench player and 10 mil on a staring pitcher...or 13.25 mil on a starter and 750K on a bench player.....I'll choose the latter every time...especially when you are getting the leadership derosa brings...and the red sox had 69 wins last year...bringing in solid chemistry veteran guys worked for them.

 

No mention of Arencibia taking a hike, I think you missed something.

 

And seeing as the Red Sox have had Pedroia and Ortiz for years, they can't be the chemistry guys because they wouldn't have had a junky year last year. Their chemistry would've risen to the top and superceded their s***** year under Bobby V.

[kgm1]

There is no doubt that the #1 thing you need when building a playoff team is Talent !!! While War is hugely flawed it is the best statistical # we have to judge talent But we all know Talent isn't all you need . Just look at the teams who have won in the past few years . Christ the Giants won twice ??

 

Health is probably the #2 thing you need . Something many posters ignore . This team was far from a 75 win team if healthy . How many wins does a healthy Morrow , Melky ,JJ and Reyes add . Some make it sound like Talent wise (WAR ) this was a 75 win team . WRONG .

 

Chemistry is probably #3 . Just look at the Red Sox . Terrible chemistry = 69 wins . Great chemistry =Playoff bound team .

[KingKat]

810 OPS against LHP seems like a decent platoon for Linds sub 600 OPS?

 

Where it goes sideways is when Lawrie takes a full out, running, head first dive into the stands, in the 8th inning of a 9=2 ballgame, and breaks his collarbone and 3 ribs.

Welcome to third base and AB's against RHP Mark.

 

Yep. This has been a problem with the Jays roster construction for some time now. When one of the selling points of a player is "he won't get that many plate appearances anyways" then maybe that's not such a good investment of a roster spot. Every year under both J.P. and AA, the Jays have been forced to give way too many plate appearances to scrubs and last time I checked, the Jays had an infield featuring Reyes, Lawrie and TBA so it's going to happen again in 2014.

[Boxcar]

The sox also had more war than the orioles last year and won 69 games....I think you get more cumulative wins by putting more money to players who will actually play and less money to the bench players when you are on a budget...if you are the Yankees...sure go spend 5 mil on a guy who will get 70 to 100 at bats..

 

Orioles had a better team this year and won fewer games. It's pretty obvious to everyone that last year was a historically lucky season. They happen.

[connorp]

Does no one realize that the Red Sox signed good free agents? Victorino, Napoli, Drew, and Ross made the difference. Breakout seasons from Ellsbury and Nava helped as well. Chemistry had nothing to do with it.

 

I dont think that was Ellsbury's best baseball. He was slow out of the gate and had nagging injuries. Usually I dont like signing the 31yo speed guys to 5 year deals but I would love to sign JE. I wouldnt be suprised to be see him be legit 6 WAR guy the next couple years.

[Boxcar]

Does no one realize that the Red Sox signed good free agents? Victorino, Napoli, Drew, and Ross made the difference. Breakout seasons from Ellsbury and Nava helped as well. Chemistry had nothing to do with it.

 

I'm sure it had SOMETHING to do with it, but you're right. Those were excellent acquisitions, very shrewd moves by Cherington (WITH 1 R.) I mean, the Jays had great chemistry at the start of the year and still lost lots of games.

 

I still can't get over how Farrell kept using Gomes against righties. Ugh, what a stupid twat that guy is.

[connorp]

That's true but the way Alex constructed the 2013 team was supposed to change that. As a matter of fact he did such a good job of it that they were able to carry 13 pitchers.It's hardly his fault the players he put in place either got hurt or s*** the bed.

 

I dont know. I mean as Jay fans we all drank the Jay juice.. but a lot of his aquisitions had big ?. Dickey for example.. there were lots of people questioning how the league change would go, MB.. how the soft tosser would do.. Melky, how no steriods would go.. Reyes, if we could stay healthy and was coming off down year. The thing is that unlike Boston and such, his moves had lasting effects and could harm the franchise if they go bad.. instead of what AA used to do with guys like Morrow, Escobar, and Rasmus

[o2cui2i]

Exactly, not the other way around.

 

nice guys finish last is not far from the truth. you dont have to be a douche to win, but if you are not winning at lot of guys will be douche bags by seasons end.