glory

I think Shapiro has two years left on his contract. Depending on how much he wants to stay, I think he’d have to put his relationships aside for the betterment of not only the franchise but also his own job security. If he’s ride or die with Atkins, then I wouldn’t mind him gone too. No way he can look at what happened on the field and see the disconnect between front office and coaching/players, and not do something.

Yeah the Orioles won 100 games this season without even trying to compete in the off season or the trade deadline. Their run isn't close to being over. Of course if their ownership doesn't want to spend on pitching, and their GM doesn't want to trade prospects for pitching, then they might run into similar issues in the playoffs.

Yeah, Ohtani's contract is going to be 10-12 years to lower the AAV. If he was completely healthy and was both hitting and pitching then I think there would have been no chance for the Jays to be in the running given what the price would have been, but as a DH-only for a year and then an unknown pitching career from 2025-onwards, it likely drops his overall value. One option could be to give him the big money over a long period of time but adding a player opt out after year 2 so he could potentially go back on the market two years from now after presumably pitching for a full season in 2025. The Jays would probably have to do something like that in addition to overpaying in order to get him away from the Dodgers and others. It's a nice thought but I don't see it happening. Trading for Robert is probably more likely of a scenario, though it would be costly. As I said in another thread, the White Sox are really cheap, so if you agree to take Moncada then maybe the price drops a bit, although for cost savings they would likely prefer a team taking Benintendi, which after seeing the 2023 Jays offense would make me want to vomit more than usual.

I don't think Bichette having a 4 WAR next season would be an unreasonable expectation, but everyone else currently on the roster for 2024? I wouldn't bank on it. This entire window was predicated on Vlad and Bo being superstars, meaning 5-6+ WAR players. That simply is not the case. The best player on the team is Bo and he's closer to a 3-4 WAR level player. Clearly Vlad is no where near a superstar player, and there's just too much volatility in his expected performance to bank on him as a core player. He could be a 4+ WAR player or he could be replacement level and neither option would be all that surprising at this point. Either way, expecting anything resembling 2021 at this point would be insane, and they kinda need him to be 2021 Vlad in order to have a real chance. If Atkins is still here, then I'm expecting this off-season and possibly next trade deadline to be his AA 2015 moment. He's going to go all in whether it hurts the long term outlook of the team or not. I just don't know if a star of that caliber is available. Maybe Luis Robert, and if you absorb Moncada's contract at the same time maybe the price would drop a bit, but otherwise I can't think of any player that stands out. Maybe Soto. I guess more names will become known after the playoffs end.

I feel like this Diamondbacks run is going to be a giant middle finger to Ross Atkins. All I saw was the D-Backs scoring a run to make it 4-1 and I knew instantly it was either because of Moreno or Gurriel.

You could see that coming. A one run lead against the Braves offense is not easy to get through. Would be a gut punch to the Phillies if they lose this one.

This feels like a game Atlanta is going to win. Phillies bullpen has to come up big here.

Shapiro would be considered a hero if he fires Atkins now. I’m holding out hope that it’s still on the table. Atkins usually gives corporate BS answers so for him to be more scorched earth than usual might be a sign that he’s feeling some heat. This is the one time Rogers being obsessed with optics might be a good thing because Jays fans and even some media aren’t having Atkins and Schneider right now.

Atkins is lying, and is also a coward for letting his subordinate take the full blame for it. Charlie Montoyo did the exact same thing in 2020 and he’s not here anymore, so either that’s a crazy coincidence that two different managers thought the same way or the org might have their fingerprints on it. Atkins and Schneider both being back would be a massive letdown.

I think I'd be fine with any team except the Astros (tired of them) and D-backs (not exciting enough for me to want to watch if they go on a deep run). I'd probably root against the Orioles too but I don't feel any certain way about the 2023 configuration of that team.

Agreed 100%. The Jays are kinda stuck here. As you said, if they keep Vlad for 2024-25 and he's the same 1-3 WAR player he's been the last two seasons, except with AAV's over $20m in both years, then it doesn't really help the Jays get to where they want to go. If they keep him and he becomes 2021 Vlad again, then you're left having to give him $300m to keep him long term, and that seems like an awful investment given how he's looked from age 20-24 (in performance and his conditioning/body/attitude). The whole point of maximizing the Vlad/Bo years was the expectation that both would be superstars during their pre-arb and early arb years. Bo has held up his end for the most part, but Vlad hasn't come close aside from one season. Now Vlad in particular is making more than the value he provides on the field, so it's no longer a competitive window based on him. Is there a team out there that would view Vlad closer to his hype than his actual results? Maybe. I'm not sure. Maybe a team like the Marlins would do it. AJ Preller would definitely do it but he's running out of assets to trade.

Manoah snitching to Manfred to get Atkins fired would redeem his 2023 pitching performance, IMO.

Springer and Chapman both seeing like a 20% decline in pull % this season from last season is a bit puzzling to me. They are vets so they'd have no reason to switch up their approaches now, especially Springer who was coming off 140 and 133 wRC+ seasons in 2021 and 2022. Although with Springer it was likely at least partly age related decline. That's a contract the Jays would be smart to try to get out of if they can, though they probably can't. Hopefully Arte Moreno wants to replace Ohtani with as many big names as possible.

Forget Scherzer, they wouldn’t have taken the ball from Chris Bassitt. I’d be pretty annoyed if I was Berrios.

Yeah no chance a smart front office handles Berrios the way the Jays did. If 2023 Manoah was starting, then absolutely go batter to batter, but Berrios had a 3 WAR season with a track record of being that caliber of starter and looked great through 3. It was also likely demoralizing to the players, especially if they aren’t or weren’t briefed about it beforehand (maybe they were, but Merrifield’s quote didn’t seem too flattering). Atkins is the key to real change. Replacing Schneider is meaningless if Atkins is still there because the analytics will stay the same and he will just hire another “happy to be there” guy who will blindly follow what he’s told. Cut off the head.

Hard to say. There might be one or two teams willing to give up something for him that's closer to the Vlad hype rather than the Vlad reality, but who knows. Someone mentioned Vlad for Soto, I think the only GM in the sport that would do that trade is Preller, so maybe there's hope for something like that (probably not), but I don't think the Jays would get any teams top prospects. He's someone they should probably keep and hope he bounces back over the next 2 years. Bichette is far more likely to get something back in a trade.

Yeah I'm in the same boat. Shapiro is great at dealing with ownership and the non baseball stuff, but if he's the road block between getting a new front office, then I wouldn't mind if he was gone too. Although Kenny Williams is available now, so we might have to be careful what we wish for with Rogers doing the hiring.

Varsho against 100 mph heat. What could go wrong?

Nah. The Rangers eliminating that fraud ass franchise with 10k in attendance was the best part of the post season so far. The Jays would have gotten swept and ensured more games played at Tampa this season. Better to have it this way. At least the Twins fanbase has been great in the stadium.

I'm done with Atkins after this. I've always been in the middle of the two extremes that either hate him or think he's doing great (neither are true...he's firmly in between), but after today's game I don't think I'll be able to stomach watching this front office run it back in 2024 and expect different results.

Kikuchi was warming up either in the 1st or 2nd inning. I know JS loves pulling starters early, especially when they are doing well, but this call isn't on him. It's on whoever made the call above him.

Lol I just went on Twitter and the #1 trend in the United States is "Berrios". I don't know if that's right or not, but I hope it is.

Blow this s*** up.

Yeah, I despise John Schneider as a manager but he had Kikuchi warming up in like the 1st inning. This decision was likely made before Schneider even woke up this morning, which is actually the scarier alternative because at least if it was the manager you can get rid of him. This s*** is the front office that isn't going anywhere.

Limp dick offense and Schneider about to pull a SP early when he's dominating. 2023 in a nutshell.