Key22

Bautista has a horrible voice though.

Atkins seemed so excited to land Grichuk as if he just traded a Gretzky rookie card for a pack of gum. Does Atkins see the next Smoak? The entire fan-base thought the Smoak deal was idiocy at the time - so here's hoping Atkins pulls another rabbit.

I like Pillar - he reminds me of Devon White in certain ways - And White won WS rings here - it's not just one guy. Looking at pillar in a vacuum is a mistake. If this was a top 3 offensive team and Pillar was our number 9 hitter - he would look GREAT - a 3 WAR solid defensive CF who has 15+ homer pop and can run (not a stealer but speedy) is a fantastic little player when you're paying him peanuts. The problem is he looks vastly worse when you are forced to play him in the lead off spot and the team was last in the AL and near last in baseball on offense - then we start picking at every spot in the order. In the old days of pre statistical metrics - teams (the ones who won) basically valued defense first up the middle (Pitching, Catcher, SS, 2B and CF) and they didn't care too much about the offense. This team won world series titles with what - Manuel Lee, Pat Borders, Devon White up the middle - yes we had Alomar as the exception but the others were not exactly offensive juggernauts but they could play defense, call a game etc. Then you expected big bats at 3B/1B, RF,LF. This stuff worked for decades and will still work. We're pretty solid up the middle - Pillar is a solid defensive player with a plausible bat. Martin too, Travis and Tulo when healthy are more than competent defenders. You have the big bats at 1B and 3B and maybe we get some luck at Morales bounces back and has a bit of an uptick. I understand Atkins saying it's a team that can compete - if the injuries are lowered the team probably could have won 10 more games than they did last year. I mean Estrada tanked for 2 solid months, our best pitcher, Sanchez, basically missed the whole year. JD missed 2 months, Jose Bautista fell off a cliff. It's a bit of a miracle they managed to hang in the thing as long as they did and won as many games as they won considering the division. An awful lot went really wrong. I mean they were playing Goins and Barney every day (shudder).

You raise an interesting point about the major league piece. Assuming Yellich is coming and the Jays could sign Lorenzo Cain then Pillar, a cheap (the Marlins like cheap) center fielder can also be included. And perhaps Devon Travis and or one of the better bullpen arms. It depends on what value a guy like Pillar is deemed to have as different GMs all seem to view cf a bit differently but many do view it more as a defense first position and don't care as much about big offensive numbers. In terms of WAR Kevin Pillar was a 2.8 player and he does have 4 more years of control. (free agent at the end of 2021). But it would kind of only make sense if we land Cain. I don't know how good Yellich is in center. I just don't want to see Pillar in the lead off spot. He's a nine hole hitter.

With the Yellich rumours flying - I listened to a podcast on fan590 about a strait up swap of Bo Bichette for Christian Yellich. The pundit feeling that Bo isn't good enough to be a starting shortstop and will have to move to second. I have also seen a trade suggestion with Anthony Alford as the main piece. I like Yellich who seems like a complete player and has 5 years of control. Assuming for the moment that the Jays would really not want to move Vlad or Bo - is there really any other trade offer that would allow us to land Yellich - I'd have to think other teams could offer a better package than say Anthony Alford, Sean-Reid Foley, Logan Warmoth, (+1). Way too much or way too little?

The only appealing thing to me about Bruce would be if he platooned with Pearce offensively. If we didn't have Morales, Bruce would be a better fit since he can at least play a couple of positions competently and can outrun an old lady with a walker.

We're gonna need a bigger wall.

Attracting pitchers to play 18 versus New York and Boston will be a bit of a tough sell. This is Toronto - if anyone offers Cobb 3/36 then we have to offer 4/52

It's all in the perspective of where your team is in the league. The Yankees are a MUCH better team than the Jays and they went out and proved it last year with 90+ wins and with a supposedly worse manager than Gibby as several pointed out to me. So assuming they have a new better manager and adding a 7 war player to a 90 win team we have a lot of ground to make up. The Jays are always a middling club because they will not do what the White Sox are doing now and the Astros did for several years and say "while this team might get lucky and make the playoffs, it's not a team that will win when it does scratch out a wild card birth." The Jays made the playoffs barely and got thumped by much better teams. Which was obvious with a one dimensional offense and no ace pitchers. They're too afraid to trade JD because of the PR. And if you run the team worried about PR then you'll always be that fringe team. Atkins wants to put a competitive team on the field - nice - but it would be better to put a winning team on the field and that requires taking a step back - until some GM figures this out at some point we will continually battler it out for 3rd and 4rth place. I understand wanting to go for it in 2018 but how are they going to go for it with $24million to spend with the numerous holes to fill.

Yankees have agreed to deal for Stanton - all but official. Let's wait for that exciting Jays announcement landing that $1million a year back-up catcher - woohoo.

The baseball fan in me hopes we get one of those free spending owners because with a Rogers where everything goes through boards and VPs etc you won't see the Jays in on any real premium players. Take the Yankees they are very likely to land Giancarlo Stanton and possibly have two 60 homer hitters in their line-up. Is it smart - do they even have a positional need - maybe not but it's exciting for the fans to see that sort of middle of the line-up for the next 7 years. Meanwhile the Jays likely won't even offer JD a 5 year contract extension. And to be blunt why would he want to stay - we won't surround him with anything. The Jays should have a payroll equal to the Yankees and Boston - there is no reason not to with the money Rogers has and the market. Worst offense in the AL - and that was with a HUGE unexpected year from Smoak - I am not looking forward to seeing the 2018 Jays at the plate - man oh man it's going to be rough.

Yes I wonder what group could afford the Jays if the buying price is $1.5 billion - does Jimmy Pattison like baseball? He's on his way out the door - may as well use his money to bring the country a winner! Number 2 - well I presume no extension for Josh Donaldson - so the question again needs asking - if the team won't re-sign him then why are we keeping him? Are they really going to risk it on the basis for "going for it" in 2018 - this team as it is presently constructed is not winning a world series. It was the worst offensive team in the AL last season and even with Bautista and EE and Donaldson it wasn't nearly as good as it should have been. The pitching? Well our wonderful closer blows to many games to be considered shut down. Our rotation - well on paper it is pretty good but if Sanchez goes down with the blister and Estrada is very mediocre like 2017 then the rotations is middling. I don't want to be debbie downer but just pointing out that this team has so many holes even Tiger Woods could win a round. Chicago White Sox time - our team is old and worsening - BLOW IT UP! BLOW IT UP!

If Only Atkins can pull off an AA trading VW and trade Tulo for a bucket if baseballs.

SS Defense supposedly well below average.

Ahh - well if that's the case he should choose Toronto if has any sense - less chance of getting mowed down by an AR15 in traffic.

I would agree though it depends on which state. And of course if I am middle class or poor I'd rather be in Canada - but the baseball players aren't poor and the tax is considerable - Just key in salaries into this helpful Canadian income tax calculator. https://simpletax.ca/calculator and select the province - Ontario - and key in $999,999 as that is as high as it goes. After tax income is $498,892. Indeed, if the new Republican tax bill goes through it is entirely catered to people in the baseball player class.

Yeah I know I am one of the few posters here who actually graduated from high school. I'd post pictures for you non-readers but I don't have the time. The income tax rate in Ontario Canada for amounts over $220,000 is 53.53% while in Miami it is 6% For people in the states in that tax bracket they can easily afford Blue Cross for health insurance which is rock-star medical insurance as good or better than the Canadian healthcare system - like - if they get sick they get an operation that week not a 6 month waiting list. The Canadian system is VASTLY better for the middle class and poor - but NOT for people with any money. https://moneycoachescanada.ca/resources/tax-info/ontario-tax-information/

Former Yankee - Godzilla said he will try his best to persuade him to go to New York. New York has more money than the Jays. New York has a FAR bigger financial gain for any star player to make kabillions on the side - hence Jeter buying a baseball team! The Yankees also want him. So 80% chance he signs in New York - 19.8% chance for all the other teams and 0.2% chance for the Jays. Yes come to Toronto where it's -20c for a bunch of months or 40c with sweltering humidity for another bunch of months. And come play in our crappy field turf ruin your legs old obsolete park. Woohoo - sign him up for that! If Shapiro and Atkins can convince this kid to play in Toronto I would be utterly amazed. Let me think - which utterly front line free agent has Toronto attracted in the last 10 years that we didn't have to overpay in either years or money or both? Plus we were lousy last year - worst offense in the league and what? We will let JD play out his contract get absolutely nothing for him as he leaves to the inevitable 5/$150 million (low end of what he will get) contract. Now if the Jays signed him - that might make other free agents (including Otani) look a little closer. Trade for Stanton, sign Cain, Sign JD, trade for Dee Gordon, sign Otani. Man it's simple like video game! Don't know why Rogers just doesn't spend $250million - who cares about luxury tax - this is Canada - tax tax tax is in our blood.

I hope we land him - I believe there is a sizeable Japanese community in Toronto and I'd far rather live in Canada than the US. So there is that. If he is truly an Ace then that would be a huge addition. Take care of right and left field and have a starting Shortstop and Second basemen who can actually play the position all year then we have a pretty good team. So long as Pillar is batting 9th and never bats anyplace else - then it will be a good team.

Why do people feel that Otani would come to Toronto over say a New York or LA. He would probably make far more cash in a US city in terms of royalties and marketing opportunities no? Unless there is a clear financial plus to playing in TO I don't see it. We have Morales at DH so where will we hit. To play here we would likely have to offer him both DH and a rotation slot since he prefers to both pitch and hit. I want him but the Jays have never been in on high profile players likes this. They always go to the big US teams.

The trouble with farm system evaluations is you don't know Jack until they perform at the majors. Travis Snyder numbet 4 or 9 prospect in all of baseball. Result? Chump. Let's swe Vlad hit Sale, Verlander, Chapman, and field ball hit by Judge at 110mph before we write his name in Cooperstown. While Jays prospect fandom is high, where are our Jose Altuve, Judge, Lindor, Correia prospects? Boston and New York usually draft AFTER us ans tjey seemingly produce far more high level studs ocer tje last 15 years than us. Sure Pillar is nice if he were batting ninth. And sure we have some pitchers but it sure seems like we produce mostly mediocrity

Is that really true? Shapiro inherited a team with a lousy farm system and zero depth. Shapiro has his own Vernon Wells albatross in Tulo. A $20 million no bat worsening defensive player no one will take even if you pay $30million of his remaining contract. Shapiro also inherits an old team. Shatkins did make some good moves. Retsining Estrada, signing Happ and Smoak (who everyone thought was a bum) . Considering they had no prospects, and a maxed out payroll there is only so much Shatkins can do at the present time. They say all the right things of what they want. Team speed Altuve types but you can't trade for that with our crap prospects. And with Tulo, it hampers the financial commitment available. They will need probably 5 years to tirn this team around. Houston sgould be the model. Young talented and add a Verlander to put you over the top. 1992 aand 1993 Jays did the same. Huge talent and add Cone and a Molitor to put you over the top. AAs failure was not realizing that his core wasn't nearly good enough to win and spending the farm for Price and Tulo wasn't going to put them over the top. Make the playoffs yes but WS quality...no. too many holes.

Doesn't include my quote that says he's not a great bat to create a strawman. The Jays are not going to land f-ing Jose Altuve - or some pie in the sky perfect offensive player. You get what is conceivably available. Dee Gordon is conceivably available and he fits what Atkins says he wants. He wants middle infield help - he wants team speed. Yes I would like an .850+ OPS bat at every position - I would like 3 in their prime Paul Molitors but they aren't available. What is available is a flawed leadoff bat with 60+ steal ability and a 3 WAR player who can play short and second (where our two regulars are anything but regulars and are likely to NEVER be regulars again). While I would much prefer Francisco Lindor that would cost Guerrero, Stroman, as openers. So you have to be practical and you look to players that are better than what we have - and Gordon brings more to the table offensively that Tulo/Goins/Barney. And when Gordon turns a walk or a single into a steal of second it is essentially a double. Further SB threats put another element in the mind of an opposing pitcher - So when Gordon is on First in a tight game - maybe the pitcher choosed to throw a fastball instead of junk and if hitters like Donaldson or Smoak or Morales can look fastball it improves the line-up beyond just Gordon's stats. Look deeper into the game. It also puts Pillar in the 9 hole where his crappy numbers would not be so crappy - as a 9 hole hitter Pillar would be quite respectable - leading off not so much. And when Pillar is on base - he creates distractions - allows for a greater dynamic at manufacturing runs - It allows for more hit and run and bunt opportunities. Speed doesn't go into slumps. I'd rather Stanton but if Miami is dumping salary - the Jays have two areas of need both of which Miami is trying to dump which makes the Jays a more attractive trade partner - IE; landing Stanton may require taking Gordon and the Jays are one of the few teams that could take both. Gordon is still a 3 WAR player - his offense from second or short is respectable. His offense was 2.8war - 20 doubles 9 triples 201 hits 60 steals and I believe was second in sprint speed in baseball. Pillar has more pop but Pillar had a .256 average and .300OBP compared to Gordon .308/.342. The difference is Gordon gets on base in front of the mashers - Pillar doesn't. When Gordon does get on - he steals second. Runner in scoring position for JD. Pillar doesn't. Point is he's better than what we have. His contract is reasonable. If you can name other lead off targets that put pressure on the pitcher and improves team speed and is a 3 WAR player to hit leadoff - please list said targets BEFORE you criticize the notion - Ie; list the alternate choice who is so vastly better.

Does anyone know what this team is trying to do? Signing Estrada seems to indicate they are going for it - so if you are going for it and you had the worst offense in the league and or in baseball (or very close to it) why would you not be looking at adding Dee Gordon and Stanton. And before we say we have no money - if Bautista had a great year they would have picked up is near $20million option for sure - he didn't so that $20million in theory SHOULD be available. Stanton has 10 years left but he is 27(28 in a few days) but taking inflation into account $25 million isn't exactly insane for an MVP player. Surely we have enough midrange prospects to throw at Miami especially if some are out of options or we have to expose to rule 5 drafts anyway. I know Gordon isn't an elite bat but he is a solid enough defender and did offer 3.1WAR last year and 4.9WAR in 2015. 60 steals and close to 80% success rate is very solid (I can't remember the threshold needed to make stealing worthwhile but I believe this is about it). Now if you know you can't sign Josh Donaldson his money also becomes available. You can trade JD get a pretty good haul you still have an elite bat. Then make a move the following off season. Tulo the albatross doesn't help but the Jays should have the money for both Stanton and Gordon - they keep saying they want to improve team speed and they certainly need a middle infielder because Tulo and Travis are basically guaranteed to spend half the season on the DL - and I'm pretty sure no one here wants to see Goins and Barney playing 100 games. If Miami really is trying to salary dump then we should be looking. His contract isn't as lousy as I though - 25 million for several years then 32 million and the last season is back to 25 million. He can opt out 2020. I know it's a pipedream but his age and performance are such that 10 years isn't that horrendous. pay to his 37 season - probably good until 35 and dips at 36 but still. 1-2 weak years - I mean we're paying Tulo and his under .700OPS and deteriorating defense so... Or is the plan to try and win this year and then blow it up? Thing is they have zero chance to win this year with a league worst offense - Jay Bruce is NOT the answer. Spend $25 million a year and get QUALITY or spend $13million and get a useless bum.

I was surprised by the firing of Girardi who I thought was one of the best manager's in baseball - a team that makes the 7th game of the ALCS and did better than most would have predicted seems strange they'd fire him. Which brings me to the inevitable - should the Jays take a long look here. I am pretty satisfied with Gibby at the helm but it would seem that Joe would be an upgrade. Surely there are a lot of Jays fans who hate Gibby as manager and it would be tough to argue against Joe's credentials (other than his flub against the Indians not calling for the camera replay).