Key22

Maybe a Castillo and Suarez and Moustakas and Gray mega deal. Taking on considerable dollars and freeing up the Reds of considerable dollars may lighten what we would have to return. Vlad and Biggio + and + I dunno but that would probably be the major league pieces they would want back and Manoah and Groshans might be the next two.

I really like the idea of Didi at third and he can move around if injuries occur - veteran bat - leadership - playoff tested (FWIW). Anyone have ideas on what kind of contract he will command? Seems like a really solid option.

I heard somewhere where Ryu prefers to pitch every 6 days - so Bauer might be a good match. But his career numbers don't really look worth $36-$40m that he wants. 12 great starts isn't a risk we should take. $150/5? Seems steep I don't see any mention of an actual contract offer or numbers. What would it take to get him?

I think the idea is to get a vastly better catcher who can actually hit the ball (Jansen is a mediocrity at best) McGuire is a P.O.S so if you want to win it is a good idea to get good players. But he's young and may get better. We have Kirk but Kirk is a bat only player. Then maybe you package Jansen with others to get a top of the rotation pitcher. So it's not just JTR but it's JTR + whoever you get for Jansen. Maybe you make a blockbuster with the Reds Jansen, Biggio, Tellez, Groshans, + for Castillo Gray Moustakas Suarez (Take on all the money) 2b and 3b now covered. Ace covered, #3 covered and JTR - one of the best 3 catchers in baseball. WS win. Go get it done - video game trading.

Phillies offer to JTR is $110/5 ($22m a year) JTR wants to break the $23m AAV for catchers. He's younger than Springer and he is an elite catcher. If the Jays were in the ballpark of Brantly $16m a year then I think they should be all in on JTR. $125m/5 This is $15m more (or $34m) than the Phillies offer which is nothing to sneeze at. You then have Jansen as trade chip. JTR makes more sense than another OF. Unless you're bullish on Jansen - I am not - I see him as a league average catcher at best - and he can't hit. JTR's don't come around every day.

Yes your argument is sound - sign a top guy and maybe another one in 2021 offseason to be ready for 2022. The problem as I see it is if we take the other poster's view that Biggio is terrific and can only play 2B, Bo loves SS and we should keep him happy, and martin is going to be a stud in 2022 - then I don't see the point of Springer. In other words if the guys we have in house are studs by 2022 then the only positions we should really try to fill are the ones where we kind of suck. Assming we did nothing on the position front would the team not be something like 2022 Bichette SS Biggio 2B Martin CF Vlad 1B Tellez DH Teoscar RF Lourdes Gurriel Jr LF Jansen C Groshans 3B Since the start of the offseason, my preference has been to get JTR over anyone because I think it's far harder to get an elite catcher than an outfielder who probably won't be in CF in 2024 (some have remarked that he is very soon to a corner outfielder spot and they don't want to pay CF money to a LF) JTR and JBJ I like more than Springer and Jansen. Granted it also all depends on who is willing to come here. Nobody of note so far.

I think they left out Thornton who is likely to be in the rotation if healthy. I don't mind the signing but it is kind of funny when Atkins is interviewed and says he wants to lower the walks issues and improve team defence. Then signs a walk machine in Chatwood and resigns a walk machine in Ray. Granted they both have upside and strike guys out but it's sorta funny to me how he does the opposite of what he says.

I think the issue is we don't really know what the Jays brass really thinks of the team at this stage. They shot their mouth off implying they are in win-now mode and Shapiro implies they might go after 2 of the top 4 free agents. So my comments here are based on what Shatkins have said on the fan 590. So it is signing a top guy and 2-second tier guys and only signing pitchers in the top of the rotation etc then if we go based on what they are saying then they don't seem to be worried about where Martin or Biggio will play. If they signed DJL - he would have been at 2b and Biggio would be moved to another position or traded. The Jays brass has said they want to improve defense and they want "run prevention" so JBJ is vastly superior defensively to any of the Jays outfielders. He is a strong defender in a position of need. And he's an okay hitter that shows some progress. Maybe he is the "filler" until Martin is ready. I guess - if I am GM I don't feel this team is ready to win now. We don't know what Pearson or Vlad or Biggio or Teoscar or Jansen really are yet. Vlad has shown that he is a rather horrible defender and so at this point, he is a DH. And so far his bat hasn't been a big plus so at DH he'd only be middling. We'll see if the weight loss will help him but if he hits like he hit last year - meh. The problem with upgrading pitching is there is Bauer. The rest are middling or have various health problems. All kind of fourth starters or lower and so why bother? If you don't think you can win now - then stand pat (worked for "Stand Pat" Pat Gillick). See if Biggio improves, see if Groshans can be an all star caliber 3b, maybe Jansen is the next Yan Gomes. Sit tight and wait for 2022.

Okay - let's assume that Martin is an all-star caliber CF by 2022. I mean Bo Bichette has lit it up pretty much from day one so it's possible. If this is the case - why bother with Springer. The Jays are not a WS caliber team adding Springer. So why spend the $25m a year for him? Makes no sense. Unless he is willing to move to RF in 2022. martin apparently has a crappy arm so it rules out RF. No point in signing an infielder because apparently, Biggio is terrible anywhere except 2B yet management implies he can play all over the IF and OF. So why were they in on DJL? I like JTR but in terms of WAR Catching was solid for the Jays and we have a boatload of supposedly great catching prospects. I suppose people believe in Jansen more than me. He is been a replacement-level catcher so far. Aquire JTR you have Jansen as a trade chip. I thought Martin wanted to be a shortstop - has that changed?

But this is the problem - no team other than Jays offered Martin 5 or Ryu 4. Indeed it would have taken 5 to land Hendriks! That is the reality. If someone offers JBJ 3 (which is a possibility) the Jays have to go 4. Or they will have to significantly beef up the AAV. People scoffed at JTR landing a 5 year contract - he already has a $100m/5 offer on the table. The Jays would have to offer $120m/6 and probably more. DJL got 6 years. Now granted he wanted to play for New York and took a hometown discount but he still landed 6 years and he was projected to only land 4. If the Jays want anyone they have to give the player more years and more money. Hence the 4 years to JBJ. Maybe teams are only going to offer him 2 - fine but we'd still need to go 3. After all - there is precedent - we did give Morales 3 years!

Signing Springer creates the same problem as JBJ with regards to Martin and Martin is no lock to be a stud by 2022. The Jays seem to be trying to win sooner rather than later so if you are in the win-now mode you really aren't concerned with Martin's position in 2022 or 2023.

Looking at the second tier it would seem to be that the Jays could go after a bit of quantity in improvements. These 2nd tier players would be an upgrade as very solid MLB players and would probably cost significantly fewer dollars and years. Springer is the best CF but he will probably command 6 years - so in the last 2 he won't be in CF. Jackie Bradly Jr is likely to be a better CF defensively for more years is younger and probably costs us a lot less in dollars and years. He is 30 maybe you can land him on a 3-4 year deal where he is still solid defensively. This leaves plenty of financial flexibility. He has shown some signs of improvement with the bat - who knows maybe he is a late bloomer. Looking up Baseball Reference - in the shortened seasons - Springer was 2.2 WAR - JBJ was 2.1 WAR. So in a "what have you done for me lately" kind of world - JBJ has done a lot. Maybe he is the better deal at 4 years than Springer will be at 6years. Sign a Kolton Wong at second base - so you have added two very good defensive players with okay bats. But again it won't take 5-6 year contract. You might be able to land both Wong and JBJ or a little more than one Springer. Move Biggio to third. Or keep going and sign a Tommy La Stella at third (and second) or Simmons at Short moving Bo and give the team more flexibility) Leaves more money next off-season. All these guys would be on less money and shorter contracts instead of all your eggs in one basket. It also allows more trading options and I believe we also don't lose a draft pick. Option A JBJ+(one of Simmons, La Stella, Didi, Wong) - 4-year contracts OR Option B Springer 6 year contract. In terms of WAR and financials which option is better? I'm starting to like option A. It's not like Springer is a once in a generation talent.

Is there a reason we don't offer contracts with vesting options based on plate appearances or other incentives. It seems AA was more open to those. Example: DJL was predicted to land a 4/67m deal via MLB traderumours. So the Jays have to overpay. Why not the following offer? 4 years $88m Vesting options 2 years $32m if 2100 plate appearances. Or 1yr $16m team option if vesting option not met. 2m buyout Age concerns are mitigated and if he is not able to play second 16m for a dh or 1b is not terrible.

Kim makes more sense than Lindor in that we have to give up a ton to get Lindor both in assets and in money. I think the Jays would rather just give up money and look at the trade market only if they can't upgrade with money. Kim looks good on paper. Seems to have multiple tools - speedy, good defense, can steal, has some pop, in his prime. Jays can always try and sign Lindor next year where all it costs us is money and not talent & money. Kim's $$$ won't stop us from landing anyone else. I'm older school - I really like have terrific two way up the middle players - I want offense and defense coming from C, SS, 2B and CF. The corners any idiot can play - dime a dozen pick-ups all day at LF. RF, 3B, 1B. Just give me big bats and not atrocious defenders. Springer, Realmuto, Kim and Bichette. Sign the damn cheques Rogers! Sign Walker and trade for an ace. Bing Badda Boom punch a WS ticket.

I am trying to figure out what the per game take is for the Jays. It seems Rogers must rake it in via cable and at-home viewers. This would give the big markets like the Jays an advantage over a team like Cincinatti.

Sorry I live in Hong Kong so I largely just see those "game in 10 minutes" clips on MLB.com. The Biggio in CF thing is largely me parroting what I read. I have no idea where Biggio could play - when I see him at second base I miss Roberto Alomar. My post was mainly about Brantly and not seeing the fit. If we signed Springer for example and we really are targeting Lindor and would give him one of those 8yr/$250m type contracts and sending prospects back then it would seem to me that Biggio would be the player to the front that trade. Cost controlled positive war etc that Cleveland would want. If as some here note - Biggio can play only in a short pinch then he has no real defensive versatility. What do people see in his bat? He can take a walk which is nice but does he actually hit. LGJ seems like he can hit - now if we can ever teach him to take a walk. I am more sold on LGJ than I am on Biggio - but as I note - I only see the highlights and condensed games so I may be getting deceived. So based only on my eye test of the condensed game I would prefer having Biggio heading a package for Lindor than LGJ.

Recruit Trevor Bauer -

I listen to the talking heads at Fan590 and I guess I don't really understand the notion of Brantly. My understanding is that he is a good defensive left fielder who would replace LGJ? But LGJ was a respectable defender and was quite impressed with the bat and is cheap and controlled for 4-5 more years no? I am not a big fan of adding by subtracting. Acquiring a CF makes sense since it's a gaping hole. Acquiring a catcher makes sense depending on whether Jansen has reached his ceiling or not or what you think he is going forward. If you think he is going to be a solid catcher then JTR makes no sense. How good would Biggio be in center field? If he serves as a solid defensive centerfielder with his current offense - that might be the best internal solution - then you overpay a DJL to play second/third and sign Ha-Seong Kim from Korea. Give Bichette the job at SS for 2021 and if he can't handle it - then next offseason you have a glut of shortstops to choose from. Austin Martin may be an option in 2022 as well. This would leave a bunch of cash left to address pitching. It also allows you another look at Hernandez (was he just hot for 60 games?) and Jansen (is he your long term solution or a mediocrity). Also, what is Pearson? The Jays really shouldn't blow their wad on a team that scraped into the playoffs in a short season. It may yet be a mirage.

Which teams are really "IN" on the big free agents - it seems the Mets are going after McCann for catcher which leaves JT Realmuto perhaps without the biggest spending team after him. Assuming the Jays can sign one of Springer or JTR which would you rather have - let's assume both get 5/$135m It's tough to find a true two-way catcher - a good defensive catcher who can hit. Then again it's tough to find a true two-way CF.

I tend to agree - I would rather pay an elite talent $30m a year than 3 of Grichuck/Roark/Anderson are $30m when all three of these you can more or less replace off the scrap here for league minimum. Albeit with the benefit of hindsight that management didn't have at the time. At the time Grichuck was looking like a possible future Jose Bautista, Roark was a steady innings eater, and Anderson was looking like another Estrada in the makings. Gambles all but if Grichuck had turned out his deal would look like a supreme bargain - as it is he is living up to the contract mostly. Toronto has the money to get anyone but anyone has to be willing to play in a minor league park next year. Toronto made the playoiffs but they're still a middle of the road team that only made it based on increased playoff team slots. So a pitcher who wants to WIN is still going to prefer to sign with LA or New York. If I am Bauer and LAD and NYY offer me $32 million a year for 5 years and Toronto comes to the table and offers me the same contract where do you think he's going to go? Plus, all the 25 year old women will be all over him in those two cities and in Toronto it would be like "who are you?" And Buffalo? He would have greater sports apparel deals in those US cities as well. To land the top free agents Toronto has to overpay as they overpaid for Ryu. No one else would give him the fourth year. One last point - if the Jays wait for Bauer and he signs in December - maybe the three other guys you want as back-ups sign elsewhere. So instead of Ray in the fifth starter slot you have Yamaguchi. I think you try and sign the guys who are willing to pitch for Toronto and Ray has upside and electric stuff. I'd like the Jays to sign Bauer but the chances are slim. I also would like to see Walker return. If they land both that's a heckuva good looking rotation.

That's an interesting point - I think agents know Toronto has some money but it helps attract other free agents because the rotation looks a little more solid. Ray pitched well for the Jays and the guy has huge upside. I was kind of hoping it would be 2 years and option. But I'll take it. Ray as a fourth starter looks a lot better than Roark/Anderson to me. Hopefully Roark can turn it around.

Sure I have no problem adding "fillers" on a team not expected to win but the team is now capable of making a playoff run. So signing "fillers" doesn't get us anywhere. I am fine adding 2/3 of Ray/Walker/Shoemaker IF the team lands a top of the rotation starter. And Ray/Walker/Shoemaker actually pitched pretty well and showed upside. Anderson/Roark were both known to be middling mediocrities with no upside. Yama was fine - a flier - lightning in a bottle but $3m a year isn't $9m and 12m Here are the targets I am looking at in order and the MLB Traderumours projections(their projected teams): Jays supposedly have $80m - so they can certainly do a helluva lot to surround the good players they have. 1) J.T. Realmuto – Mets. Five years, $125MM ($25m AAV) - He says he wants $200m. Our catching wasn't very good. 2) DJ LeMahieu – Blue Jays. Four years, $68MM ($17m AAV) He's already projected to come here lol. This would move Biggio to center solves 2 problems perhaps. OR 3) George Springer – White Sox. Five years, $125MM (25m AAV) Solves a lot of issues. Biggio stays at 2B 4) Trevor Bauer – Dodgers. Four years, $128MM ($32m AAV) 5) Trevor May – Giants. Two years, $14MM OR Brad Hand – Astros. Two years, $14MM OR Trevor Rosenthal – Angels. Two years, $14MM (replacement for Ken Giles and a veteran stable closer). ($7m AAV) $89m - Realmutto/Bauer/Springer/one reliever. $81m - Realmutto/Bauer/LeMahieu /one reliever Take out Bauer and it's $57m and $49m which leaves plenty for the players below Fallbacks 6) Robbie Ray – Brewers. One year, $6MM (The guy has electric stuff so he's my dream big guy. He pitched well here and this projection seems low to me - but I think the Jays could easily go 2 years here and with higher AAV. 7) Taijuan Walker – Nationals. Two years, $16MM (8m AAV) Like Ray - they know the team and they performed well. I'd rather have them over Anderson/Roark and if they were willing to drop $21m on those two why wouldn't you for Ray/Walker? 8) Ha-Seong Kim – Rangers. Five years, $40MM (plus $7.625MM posting) 2B moving Biggio to CF (in lieu of not landing Springer) 9) Jackie Bradley Jr. – Astros. Two years, $16MM (8m AAV) for not landing Springer or Kim) - Biggio stays at 2b 10) Tommy La Stella – Athletics. Two years, $14MM ($7m AAV - 3b/2b) adds flexibility to the roster - good player all round 11) James McCann – Phillies. Two years, $20MM ($10m AAV). If they can land Bauer they could target the cheaper McCann and still make a big upgrade to catcher and allow cash for other needs. IMO The Jays need upgrades - 1 CF, 1 IF (3B), 1 C, 1 top of the rotation starter(better than Ryu), 1 other solid starter, 1 Dolis calibre reliever, 1 closer.

Apparently the Jays offered Cole $300 million for 10 years. They settle on Ryu. Still - the articles I have read indicate that the Jays have around $80million available to add and if they sign someone to a 5 year deal their contract will end when it's time to give Bo and Pearson and Vlad etc the big money. Of course they could still be outbid and the player just may prefer to play somewhere else but I think the Jays could make runs at 3 or 4 top free agents and they could, in theory, be able to afford all of them. Generally I believe in the "up the middle" approach to team building - Pitching Pitching more pitching and middle of the field defence. So CF, Catcher, SS and 2B. I would target © J.T. Realmuto. $200m/8 He has said he wants $200m (25m AAV) Put the bulk of the money in the first 4 years so 35m a year for years 1-4 and then $60m over the last 4 when you have to pay your in house guys. George Springer (CF) $150m/5 (30m AAV) Trevor Bauer (P) $165m/5 ($33m AAV) Maybe find a team willing to take Grichuk's salary and move a prospect to sweeten the deal to shave $10m. Hernandez moves to RF. The team OF defense should be respectable. An all star catcher - who can hit and throw someone out. If only it were a video game. I just hate when the team goes cheap - Spending $9 million on Chase Anderson and $12million Roark and $3million on Yamaguchi and I think to myself - gee would it not be better to spend $24 million on 1 all-star calibre player rather than pay $24 million for three steaming piles of crap? Individually the three signings were okay at the time because they were not really considering a contention run but now is different. Ryu or better now - not HAPP or Paxton or other broken down over-the-hill dreck. Bring back Ray and Walker and Shoemaker if possible as well. Three lighning in bottle kind of pitchers. Ray in particular. Jays have a big money sword. Time to wield it.

Kirk = Kirby Puckett