Key22

Baseball Reference 4.84 ERA and 0.4 WAR. And a s***** WHIP. And he's not getting any better or younger.

I think it's pretty sad that people get excited over Kyle Gibson with his 1.44 WHIP and 32 years old getting a 3 year deal to take him to 35. He's what a 0 WAR player last year and that warrants a 3 year $30 million commitment. Sure 2018 he was good but he's not getting any younger. Meh - just have Borucki start for league minimum. I am sure he can put up similar mediocrity. Here's a plan - if you actually want to win some f-ing games acquire "quality" When you want that heart operation do you want Hawkeye or Frank Burns operating on you (yeah a M.A.S.H. Reference) - seriously. Anderson makes sense - a 1 year stop gap until the kid(s) are ready.

Not me. We already have number 3, 4, 5 pitchers in our system. Odorizzi isn't a number 1 or 2 and without those the Jays are a fourth place team. Our Farm is now a bottom half to bottom third system as all the better players are now on the major league roster. So a weak farm, no ace or even a # 2 starter - a bullpen with ONE true shutdown arm we're looking to trade for a middling prospect or two. And basically three players who look like they can be good hitters. I understand signing quality number 3 pitchers to stabilize the rotation but we're not winning jack squat for 3 years so why give up draft pick compensation for 3 losing years? You give up the #2 pick if you're a 95 win team and you think he can put you over the top but throwing away a high pick for a solid #3 - meh.

Am I being too negative? When I look at the roster it really seems pretty abysmal - there are so many holes that it seems onerous to expect free agency to fix it. Basically - we have a young core but you can't get too hyped by it. Guerrero didn't really come out showing that he is the greatest MILB hitter of a generation. Bichette, let's face it, came out red hot but he's no lock or even likely to be that player. There was an article noting that Bret Lawrie had higher upside and look what happened there. Biggio and Jansen didn't hit - neither of them scream future all-star. And those are the four of the five guys being counted on as the "Core" Gurriel is the other and if his bat holds he is probably the best "currently" of the core group. CF and RF are poor - no one at first/dh and I am not sold on second. We have no true #1, #2, or even #3 starter. Outside of Giles (who we may trade) the bullpen has no shut down pitcher. Not a single truly reliable reliever. And people want to try and make the playoffs? This team looks to have so SO many holes.

The pick has a monetary value but it also has the value of possibly becoming a future all-star. This is supposedly a deep draft and the 2nd round pick may matter more than usual. If you were going to sign a future hall of fame starter - fine but Odirizzi is another Marcus Stroman. I suppose the Jays might think Odirizzi has picked up his game and might be a buy low future Ace - he did have a 4.3 WAR I like the guy but it's moot now. The best pitchers without surrendering a draft pick seems to be: Age and WAR Hyun-Jin Ryu (33, 4.8) Homer Bailey (34, 2.9) Michael Pineda (30, 2.7) Kyle Gibson (32, 2.5) Cole Hamels (36, 2.5) Tanner Roark (33, 2.0) Wade Miley (33, 2.0) Brett Anderson (32, 2.0) Iván Nova (33, 2.0) Martín Pérez (29, 1.9) Andrew Cashner (33, 1.8) Jason Vargas (37, 1.8) Rick Porcello (31, 1.8) Julio Teheran (29, 1.6) Jordan Lyles (29, 1.6) Gio Gonzalez (34, 1.4) Rich Hill (40, 0.9) Dallas Keuchel (32, 0.8) Matt Moore (31, 0.5) Clay Buchholz (35, 0.1) Tyson Ross (33, 0.0)

Maybe Jays fans can help me out here but Odirizzi is a puzzling "get" to me (that is if we get him). He is a #3 starter and is hardly a put you into the wild card starter. Granted I get this may be part of other moves but if you are essentially going to pay a lot of money AND trade your number 2 draft pick in a supposedly deep drafting year - when you aren't making the playoffs in 2020 anyway - well I guess I don't get such a move. I mean he isn't really any better than Marcus Stroman and costs more. Why lose a high draft pick just to spend money decreasing financial flexibility and wind up finishing 4th in the division anyway?

Yes I have seen that they predict Cole to get 8 years $256 million - so Toronto would probably have to add another year and more AAV. Of course it's not happening - the Jays don't like more than 3 years on a pitcher let alone 8! I am a bit old school in my view that making the playoffs is one thing but you really need a team built to win a short series when long term statistics go out the window. In a one game playoff you really need a shut down ace. If you make make the best of 5 - if you really want to assure yourself the best shot you need 2 top end starters to pitch 3 of the 5 games - and a pretty awesome relief core. A true strikeout closer and a set-up guy who would be a closer on more than half the teams in the league. When the Jays were in the playoffs I knew they had no real chance to win a WS because they didn't have the pitching - If RA Dickey is starting and Price who was a mediocre playoff contender - it just wasn't shut down ace territory - We got a boost from Estrada and Sanchez who was lights out in the pen. But our one dimensional offense back then was going to get shut down by good pitching - and it did. I just don't think you can draft and develop everything. Do we have true Ace pitchers in our system? Are they close? Nate Pearson perhaps - Manoah? Maybe we just wait until 2022. LOL I am impatient.

Jays first rounder is protected no? So if you're planning to buy top talents this is not a bad time. Consider that Boras Clients are the most likely to go to the highest bidder beyond other considerations. If you offerred Cole an 9 year $280 million contract $10 million up front signing bonus. And you offered Strasberg a 7 year $220 million contract with a $10 million bonus...i am fairly sure that is enough to land both. Would that be enough to get the Jays into a wildcard? If so, then you have a chance. Great pitching pitching great shuts down any offense. As the Nationals showed...just scrape in, anything can happen if you have aces. If your rotation is shyte you wind up being the Yankees.

Who do you suppose could or would buy the Jays and what sort of owner would you prefer? Shapiro says that they will spend once the core is in place...similar to Pat Gillick. If that's true then I can see 2022 as the year when this team should have a core to then go out and get some push us over the top talents as we did in 1993 and 1994 acquiring David Cone, Paul Molitor, Jack Morris etc. Jays had the highest payroll in baseball. Those were the days.

You can tell me it will never happen. But I know that. I keep reading those articles that suggest Shatkins will be fired if they don't win next year. And when GM's are on that bubble sometimes they do stupid crap to save their jobs. They blow up the plan. Plus it's a corporate owner who doesn't give a crap about winning - they care about net profit. A private owner will sometimes say screw it I want Rendon and I will pay $400 million to get him - overriding the GM. That probably doesn't happen in Toronto. Our team payroll next year including Tulo is something like $40 million from what I have read. That drops to $30m in 2021. So assuming the Jays could spend $165 million and with Shatkins about to get fired if they don't win a very respectable number of games in 2020. I don't know. If I were in the job I might want to overshoot and guarantee me some wins to save my ass.

I don't really see the point of merely doing a little better than this year. In the market to spend $30million on a few borderline number 3 starters isn't really going to move the needle much especially when we blow the games in the 9th anyway without an actual closer. If the goal is to be an out and out playoff caliber team by 2021 (is that the goal???) then I see no reason not to get or at least try to get elite talent. 3 starters, 3 GOOD relievers (retaining Giles). Hypothetically, lets say the Jays Extended Giles (5 years) Signed Cole (7 years) Signed Bumgarner (4 years) Signed Keuchel (2 years) Signed Odorizzi (3 years) Signed Will Harris (RP) (3 years) Signed Will Smith (RP) (3 years) Signed Anthony Rendon (8 years) Move Vlad to first base. They can afford to do all of that with money left in the bank. That should at least get you a wild card no? Add up the WAR boys.

Agreed - may not be enough in 2020 - but it's a step in the right direction - if you think that Jays have a real chance in 2021 - it might make sense to extend Ken Giles. Elite pitching isn't easy to come by. And if the Yankees don't win the WS this year you probably have to ask why they didn't acquire elite arms. The Jays will have bucket loads of cash this off season and next. So....

Another Dull signing by the Blue Jays.

Cue the Fire Shatkins hire Dombrowski posts

That trade doesn't look so bad in hindsight. Sanchez done for the year and may be released this off season. Biagini sent to the minors and is basically AAAA caliber pitcher. Lotto ticket Stevenson for Fisher Meh.

With another terrific start from Stroman - the deadline approaching which teams do you think would be serious suitors for Marcus. And what should we be looking to acquire. The Jays need starting pitching but some outlets have said pitchers are less sure things so it is better to get positional player talent. I was reading the discussion thread over at MLB traderumours where a poster felt the Jays should land 2 top 100 prospects + 2 lottery ticket pitchers in the low minors. This seems reasonable to me but others say Stroman isn't good enough to land that sort of package. Here is what one poster proposed from the Yankees. Estevan Florial (LH OF) + Jonathan Loaisiga (RHP)+ Trevor Stephan (RHP)+ Roansy Contreras (RHP) Someone noted that Clint Frazier doesn't really fit the Blue Jays as he is a poor outfielder defensively and in a couple of years Tellez/Guerrero will share DH/1B duties. Further Frazier is a sell high candidate perhaps due to a good couple of months. While these Yankee prospects are top 10 in the Yankee system - that doesn't make them "great prospects" in another organization. The Jays really can't afford to miss in a Stroman trade - they need 2 sure fire can't miss regulars in return - is this Yankee package that?

I'm a bit surprised that this is all they got back for the AL Home Run leader in a not so homer friendly park in Seattle. Not sure why Seattle didin't wait a month to see what else came up given that a lot can happen in a month - injuries etc. Sure his defense may be down at first but it's not like a hugely ciritical defensive position - I mean he can still put his foot on first and catch a ball. Does Cashman have pictures of Dipoto screwing a goat or something? Looks like a totally crappy return when Seattle is also eating a large chunk of the contract on top.

I am not sure why the Jays are waiting to trade Stroman - the more he pitches here the more likely he will blow out his arm and we get zilch nada nein for him. With supposedly 20 teams interested surely they can get an agreeable package in return. The above package with Stroman and say Galvis or Smoak thrown in the deal should get you a few top 100 prospects. Yankees are supposedly interested but do they have anyone worth acquiring in terms of young stud future all star types? Minnesota? Texas?

I'd go 5/80 but he probably wants 100 million and I'd only sign him if the plan is to start seriously contending in 2021. The reality is you probably are not going to get a player back in trade who will be better than Stroman. The team's big area of organizational weakness is starting pitching. San Diego apparently has 4 of the best 10 lefthanded pitching prospects in all of baseball - would they part with two of them +? I doubt it but That's sort of what you're going to need back. A Mackenzie Gore and Ryan Weathers/Logan Allen + Luis Urias. Perhaps expand the deal to add someone to Stroman. San Diego seems like a good match but they're not in strong contention at the moment so they have to feel like they have a real shot at it. This team is NOT beating the Yankees, Tamps and Boston with number 3 starters - we're going to need a couple of absolute powerhouses at the top of this rotation - Shilling/Johnson sorta thing. And then on top of that you're going to need a 3/4 who would be aces on half the teams in the league. It would be nice to see a starter actually make it through 8 innings once in a while. based on the past I am hopeful the Jays brass can identify pitching in the draft. (Ahem Zeuch) but nobody is perfect.

Tanner Moris signed acording to MLB traderumours

Left handed bat that likes hitting the ball the other way and probably gets moved to third base - umm Wade Boggs profile. I'll take that!

Of course we get a top 4 pick next year and if we don't sign this guy we would get the 12 pick next year. Next year is supposed to be a much stronger draft.

Or CC Sabathia - Our Cleveland brass like big butts and they cannot lie.

One thing to add that when the Astros played the Red Sox - the commenters noted that when the Astros brought in Osuna - the Boston hitters were licking their chops and very happy to see Osuna come in so they could light him up. And they did light him up. He got belted by Boston so this short sample size thing goes both ways. The Jays basically had to trade Osuna and I am still surprised how the Jays got Giles and two other pitching prospects in return - and Giles only has 1 less year of control. I would not be in a huge hurry to trade Giles either - If this Jays brass truly believes we will be a contender by 2021 - then we have to think about keeping some people - we can't replace every single position with prospects. No farm is that good. We have buckets of money freed up. I am not sure closer is that critical but it always seems to be in the playoffs. If you can get Giles at a not insane price he may not be a bad guy to extend - unless we get a a sure fire can't miss all-star in return. Elite closers are not that abundant. And in a playoff facing Judge/Stanton/Sanchez in bottom of the ninth in the deciding game clinging to the 1 run lead do you want Giles or Biagini or some other mediocrity in that spot. Forget WAR - WAR is BS in 1 inning 1 pitcher/batter game on the line situations. I want an Elite arm in that situation not canon fodder. And if I lose with my Elite arm - fine but at least they had to beat us with my best guy on the mound. Playoff teams need elite bullpen arms - gone are the days starters go more than 6-7. The pen may not have high WAR numbers but they always seem pretty critical when the season is on the line. Plus I liked that Giles ripped into that lazy rookie in the spring. A bullpen leader on top of shut down stuff. I like him. If someone wants to trade me a 19 year old Mike Trout - great - but if what I am offered is a 19 year old Randal Grichuk and Thomas Pannone - and let's be realistic - this is what is likely going to be the package we get offered then no thanks.

My concern with trading pitching is that the team actually needs pitching going forward - it's not like this team has 5 aces in the minors ready to come up here. We have ONE quality top of the rotation pitching prospect who is still a Maybe in Nate Pearson. And that's it. And we are considered a top 3 farm system at that! It's not like Stroman and Giles are old geezers. Yes if you get a top tier return - for each great but they can't miss on that return. They gave Grichuk a 5 year deal so they have established that they're willing to give a soon to be 28 year old guy a 5 year contract. Stroman just turned 28 and Giles is 28. If the idea is you will be a contender in 3 years (2021) having quality veterans around will be a good thing. The Jays can't replace EVERYONE through the farms system - if they could then why sign the decent but heavily flawed Randal Grichuck for 5 years? Giles won't be traded until the compensation is dropped for Kimbral in June - he would be a team's first choice as it's just money at that point. I understand the prospects argument but very few of them work out. And the ones who do often take a long time. Everyone keeps touting the Jays farm and prospects but let's see the actual MLB on field results. Lourdes Gurriel Jr, Jansen, Guerrero, Luciano, Tellez, McKinney etc. I mean they haven't exactly come in and looked like stars that will go toe to toe with the position players on Boston and New York. Guerrero looked like that for 1 game out of 15. So a sliver of hope - albeit tempered by the fact that he crushed two bums.