SERIES thread: Sept. 6-9 Toronto Blue Jays @ Atlanta Braves

[Jonn]

Are you a local celebrity? He’s a 101 wrc+ hitter you whiny nitwit.

 

Peaks and valleys. Your anger justifies nothing.

[BatFlip]

Peaks and valleys. Your anger justifies nothing.

 

I’m not angry, I just find you whiny. As for the peaks and valleys, he’s 500 PA in so maybe focus on his body of work over the entirety of the season to-date.

[Jonn]

I’m not angry, I just find you whiny. As for the peaks and valleys, he’s 500 PA in so maybe focus on his body of work over the entirety of the season to-date.

 

You certainly sound angry. He’s not a good hitter but at the bottom of the lineup with his power and base running and great defense he’s certainly an asset.

 

Saying his AB’s are frustrating is not whiny its an observation. I actually think he has more in the tank but swings at awful pitches.

[BatFlip]

You certainly sound angry. He’s not a good hitter but at the bottom of the lineup with his power and base running and great defense he’s certainly an asset.

 

Saying his AB’s are frustrating is not whiny its an observation. I actually think he has more in the tank but swings at awful pitches.

 

A 101 WRC+ is not a “dog s*** hitter” though is it? An elite defender at a premium position that can be a league average hitter is pretty damn valuable.

[Brownie19]

Still have absolutely no idea who you are.

 

Don't do this kinda s***. BatFlip is a quality contributor to the board. Don't be a dick.

[Masterbather]

I think Horwitz has shown enough at this point. Wagner...still a bit early. Signs are good though

 

I don't think either have shown enough yet to be completely sold, I've always liked Horwitz though, he at least deserves an inside track and real opportunity at this point. As for Wagner, I wouldn't pencil him into next year's plans, but I make sure to keep a path open for him to be in the plans if he continues to show out.

[Masterbather]

Still have absolutely no idea who you are.

 

I was annoyed when he was LF and they were getting 0 Offense from the OF.

 

I am thrilled he’s playing CF now. Should still be in the bottom third of the lineup. He’s absolutely dog s*** as a hitter but he will hit some Homeruns and play incredible defense.

I can absolutely live with him anywhere from 6-9 in the order, if he's any higher to start next season it's a bad sign for the offensive construction of this team.

[Jonn]

A 101 WRC+ is not a “dog s*** hitter” though is it? An elite defender at a premium position that can be a league average hitter is pretty damn valuable.

 

Let me make this very clear so we have no confusion.

 

I’m very happy with what Varsho is currently doing. He plays a premium CF and hits for enough extra base power which more than warrants his everyday job in CF. Which he should be in CF as much as humanly possibly. He’s easily the best Outfielder currently in the sport.

 

Minor complaint is I don’t like him hitting second. Can live with while he’s hot.

 

Nitpicking complaint is watching him hit can be utterly painful but this is objective.

 

Anything else we can clear up?

[Jonn]

Don't do this kinda s***. BatFlip is a quality contributor to the board. Don't be a dick.

 

Did they use have another username? I genuinely don’t remember interacting with them previously.

[Stangstag]

Let me make this very clear so we have no confusion.

 

I’m very happy with what Varsho is currently doing. He plays a premium CF and hits for enough extra base power which more than warrants his everyday job in CF. Which he should be in CF as much as humanly possibly. He’s easily the best Outfielder currently in the sport.

 

Minor complaint is I don’t like him hitting second. Can live with while he’s hot.

 

Nitpicking complaint is watching him hit can be utterly painful but this is objective.

 

Anything else we can clear up?

 

Good thing we didn’t fire him into the sun then!! That would have a been a waste eh

[Brownie19]

Did they use have another username? I genuinely don’t remember interacting with them previously.

 

Not that Im aware with. He's been contributing for a while now.

[max silver]

Good thing we didn’t fire him into the sun then!! That would have a been a waste eh

 

And good thing the team didn't punt Yimi Garcia last season to avoid paying a perfectly reasonable option. And then there was the recent whining about Nathan Lukes being granted a well earned callup etc.

[max silver]

I don't think either have shown enough yet to be completely sold, I've always liked Horwitz though, he at least deserves an inside track and real opportunity at this point. As for Wagner, I wouldn't pencil him into next year's plans, but I make sure to keep a path open for him to be in the plans if he continues to show out.

 

I'm sold of Horwitz. He's been a weapon against right handed pitching and I think he's all but earned himself a spot on next year's team. He probably maxes out as a platoon bat but that should still afford him plenty of opportunities for starts and pinch hit opportunities off of the bench.

[Jonn]

Good thing we didn’t fire him into the sun then!! That would have a been a waste eh

 

You know when I said fire him into the sun I wasn't suggesting release him. Please tell me you understand that. That trade in general certainly looks much better in Year 2.

 

And good thing the team didn't punt Yimi Garcia last season to avoid paying a perfectly reasonable option. And then there was the recent whining about Nathan Lukes being granted a well earned callup etc.

 

The same Yimi Garcia that has been terrible for Seattle? Moving on from his option would have had zero negative impact on this team whatsoever.

 

And Alan Roden hasn't earned callup? You know the 24-year old OF prospect. Not the 30-year old journey man Lukes who is 10-20 since the call so good for him?

[max silver]

You know when I said fire him into the sun I wasn't suggesting release him. Please tell me you understand that. That trade in general certainly looks much better in Year 2.

 

 

 

The same Yimi Garcia that has been terrible for Seattle? Moving on from his option would have had zero negative impact on this team whatsoever.

 

And Alan Roden hasn't earned callup? You know the 24-year old OF prospect. Not the 30-year old journey man Lukes who is 10-20 since the call so good for him?

 

Garcia was the team's best reliever this season. The current status of his elbow is meaningless to this discussion as he was traded for a nice outfield prospect.

 

Roden doesn't even need to be added to the 40 man roster yet so there's no need to rush him to the majors. Lukes has earned a shot to show what he can do in the majors, whether it's for the Blue Jays or someone else.

[jaysblue]

I don't think anyone on this board has anything against Varsho as a player, though I think more of the criticism is how he has been utilized during his time here in Toronto. First and foremost, Varsho should be starting in CF everyday so the Blue Jays could extract as much defensive value from him as possible. Having him play LF is a complete waste. Secondly, ideally Varsho's bat should be in the bottom half of the order, like anywhere #6 through #9 on a day-to-day basis. If the Jays are relying on Varsho to hit in the middle or top of the order, we're in trouble.

 

I would argue that this team has mishandled his role here which is the issue. Varsho should have been made an everyday CF when the acquired him and they should have realized offensively he's someone who is best situated in the bottom half of the order.

[jaysblue]

I think Horwitz definitely deserves an opportunity next season as a starter at 2B. Ideally, he would be perfect in a platoon where he receives majority of the AB's hitting against RHP.

 

If the Jays decide to go the cheap route at 3B, Clement should be able to fill the void.

 

As for the others, I wouldn't be writing their names anywhere in the starting lineup if this team plans on contending in 2025. They should be used either as AAA depth or on the bench starting in 2025.

 

Will Wagner has been great, but lets not get crazy about only 75 PA's and a 2.7 BB% thus far! If Wagner was struggling out of the gate, I guarantee you some would be saying he has no future here even after just 75 PA's which is absurd. Can't get too excited or can't panic especially when we're only talking about a 75 PA sample size at the big league level thus far!

[John_Havok]

I think Horwitz definitely deserves an opportunity next season as a starter at 2B. Ideally, he would be perfect in a platoon where he receives majority of the AB's hitting against RHP.

 

If the Jays decide to go the cheap route at 3B, Clement should be able to fill the void.

 

As for the others, I wouldn't be writing their names anywhere in the starting lineup if this team plans on contending in 2025. They should be used either as AAA depth or on the bench starting in 2025.

 

Will Wagner has been great, but lets not get crazy about only 75 PA's and a 2.7 BB% thus far! If Wagner was struggling out of the gate, I guarantee you some would be saying he has no future here even after just 75 PA's which is absurd. Can't get too excited or can't panic especially when we're only talking about a 75 PA sample size at the big league level thus far!

 

Yes. Making decisions on next year based on small samples would be foolhardy. Even Loperfido's 200 PA isn't all that meaningful yet.

 

All they're really doing is figuring out what these guys have to work on to stay at the MLB level. They already know what they are at AAA.

 

Wagner looks like a left handed Version of Bichette when it comes to his ability to get the bat on pretty much anything. But he seems to have a better eye for swinging in the zone vs out of the zone than Bo does

[BatFlip]

Yes. Making decisions on next year based on small samples would be foolhardy. Even Loperfido's 200 PA isn't all that meaningful yet.

 

All they're really doing is figuring out what these guys have to work on to stay at the MLB level. They already know what they are at AAA.

 

Wagner looks like a left handed Version of Bichette when it comes to his ability to get the bat on pretty much anything. But he seems to have a better eye for swinging in the zone vs out of the zone than Bo does

 

 

Small sample for sure, but yeah Wagner's contact ability has been pretty impressive and he does seem to have a pretty refined approach at the plate.

 

I'm just not sure he's ever going to generate any kind of meaningful power, which is fine, as long as he keeps getting on base. He's never really slugged at any level (hasn't hit >10 HRs at any level) and he's already 26 which makes me think he's not going to grow into any more power. I just hope he can play a passable 2B. I'm not sure why, because Devon Travis was definitely a different player, but Wagner makes me think back to how excited I was about Travis after his first season with the Jays.

[Brownie19]

Wagner's statcast page is looking pretty sexy, but I'd agree, it's too early to say he's the real deal.

 

How many at bats does it take until you'd believe in Wagner (or others)? Is it 400-500 PA's?

[G-Snarls]

Sale today?

 

Fack

[metafour]

 

I'm just not sure he's ever going to generate any kind of meaningful power, which is fine, as long as he keeps getting on base. He's never really slugged at any level (hasn't hit >10 HRs at any level) and he's already 26 which makes me think he's not going to grow into any more power. I just hope he can play a passable 2B. I'm not sure why, because Devon Travis was definitely a different player, but Wagner makes me think back to how excited I was about Travis after his first season with the Jays.

 

Avg EV

Wagner: 90.4 mph

Horwitz: 88.5 mph

 

Max EV

Wagner: 109.1 mph

Horwitz: 108.1 mph

 

Wagner hits the ball hard, but his batted ball profile is what limits his power - he hits too many ground balls. He has just a 25% FB rate in his short MLB stint (it was 28.1% in ~70 AAA games with Houston).

 

If you look at Horwitz who has a very similar skill-set/profile to Wagner, you will see that he has been slowly raising his FB rate. Its at 35% this season which is the highest its ever been in a full-season sample. This is what has allowed him to increase his power output this season. When he was in AA/AAA he had the exact same "label" as Wagner as a guy who "didn't have any power".

 

The point here is that Wagner has the tools to hit for more power (he doesn't swing a noodle-bat), the question is whether they can tweak his swing without breaking it.

[G-Snarls]

[Omar]

Good start YRod.

 

Let's Go Jays!

[G-Snarls]

Our only real hope here is getting a runner on base and having one of our right hand hitters run into one

[G-Snarls]

s***. I thought for a second Schneider might have done it.

[Jonn]

Crazy that Sale is still this dominant at 35 after all the injuries.

[hanton]

Jimenez held in there nicely vs Sale

[Omar]

Crazy that Sale is still this dominant at 35 after all the injuries.

 

If he stays healthy/competitive for a few more years and gets to 55~60 career war he has a shot at Cooperstown.

Edited September 8, 2024 by Omar

[Omar]

Ok I'm convinced, Horowitz sticks!