Around Baseball 2024

[BTS]

Keeping the basis of objection to your usage of WAR as be all, end all, do you think the Jays could be better right now if the traded for defensive WAR? Could they just keep adding D WAR and then get back to a left title threat? Bc I’m sure they could prob swing some trades for that

 

Kiermaier and Teo were equally valuable offensively last year.

[connorp]

Kiermaier and Teo were equally valuable offensively last year.

 

Admittedly it wasn’t the proper setup. I made the disclaimer to start. It’s about they reaped what they sowed with the dream of being a TB clone. They’ve always tried to do that s*** and were never smart enough. Never could find or develop the players. Pull Berrios before even TB would. They f***ing suck. Should all be fired

[BTS]

Admittedly it wasn’t the proper setup. I made the disclaimer to start. It’s about they reaped what they sowed with the dream of being a TB clone. They’ve always tried to do that s*** and were never smart enough. Never could find or develop the players. Pull Berrios before even TB would. They f***ing suck. Should all be fired

 

This has been a very typical exchange on this forum.

 

"lmao at Atkins fanboys thinking the Teo trade was good!"

"actually the Teo trade was pretty good"

"ATKINS SUCKS BRO!!"

 

Like, yeah it doesn't look good for him. 100% of the forum understands that there has been a player development failure here and that it should/will probably cost him his job unless things turn around quick enough that the season can be salvaged. But there are things the current FO does really well, and trades have been one of them.

[connorp]

This has been a very typical exchange on this forum.

 

"lmao at Atkins fanboys thinking the Teo trade was good!"

"actually the Teo trade was pretty good"

"ATKINS SUCKS BRO!!"

 

Like, yeah it doesn't look good for him. 100% of the forum understands that there has been a player development failure here and that it should/will probably cost him his job unless things turn around quick enough that the season can be salvaged. But there are things the current FO does really well, and trades have been one of them.

 

Probably Teo doesn’t come back end if offered, but almost certainly Jays never called. So thats the crime. A lot of the people were belly aching about the team not doing s*** to address how they finished their season in a whimper

[connorp]

The trades individually may not look to too bad, but they play into the clear steer in the wrong direction. They weren’t able to properly evaluate what they had and what needed to happen. As I said, if no 3rd WC, they’re likely gone and thought of as losers

[BTS]

Probably Teo doesn’t come back end if offered, but almost certainly Jays never called. So thats the crime. A lot of the people were belly aching about the team not doing s*** to address how they finished their season in a whimper

 

The issue is a systemic failure to identify young talent, develop it, and graduate it to the MLB roster. They've had almost 10 years now to develop a pipeline of talent and it hasn't happened. I have no idea what changes have to be made to address that. But they've been constantly forced to build their roster from MLB players acquired from outside the organization. And they've mostly done a pretty good job of it. But you can't continue to compete while getting zero impact talent internally.

[Spanky__99]

The issue is a systemic failure to identify young talent, develop it, and graduate it to the MLB roster. They've had almost 10 years now to develop a pipeline of talent and it hasn't happened. I have no idea what changes have to be made to address that. But they've been constantly forced to build their roster from MLB players acquired from outside the organization. And they've mostly done a pretty good job of it. But you can't continue to compete while getting zero impact talent internally.

 

He thinks it's a 12 team Dynasty League...

[Laika]

The issue is a systemic failure to identify young talent, develop it, and graduate it to the MLB roster. They've had almost 10 years now to develop a pipeline of talent and it hasn't happened. I have no idea what changes have to be made to address that. But they've been constantly forced to build their roster from MLB players acquired from outside the organization. And they've mostly done a pretty good job of it. But you can't continue to compete while getting zero impact talent internally.

 

No man you don't get it, the Teoscar trade was bad because.... uhhh the Jays thought they were the Rays and uhh.... He's having a good year now in LA and hmmmm.... Toronto probably didn't even try to sign him as a free agent and errrrrr... defensive WAR is fake and the third wild card is for liberals and I'm quitting all my dynasty leagues!!!

[Spanky__99]

No man you don't get it, the Teoscar trade was bad because.... uhhh the Jays thought they were the Rays and uhh.... He's having a good year now in LA and hmmmm.... Toronto probably didn't even try to sign him as a free agent and errrrrr... defensive WAR is fake and the third wild card is for liberals and I'm quitting all my dynasty leagues!!!

 

lol

[connorp]

No man you don't get it, the Teoscar trade was bad because.... uhhh the Jays thought they were the Rays and uhh.... He's having a good year now in LA and hmmmm.... Toronto probably didn't even try to sign him as a free agent and errrrrr... defensive WAR is fake and the third wild card is for liberals and I'm quitting all my dynasty leagues!!!

 

Except I was crying about the s*** all off season while you were sipping on the BJ Lib-aid

[connorp]

It’s not even trolling for many people, can do that other ways. Jays are a f***ing mess, should all be canned and all you cuckold apologists that are like 2 years late to the party should STFU lol

[connorp]

lol

 

Is that all you got old timer?

[Spanky__99]

Is that all you got old timer?

 

[Laika]

It’s not even trolling for many people, can do that other ways. Jays are a f***ing mess, should all be canned and all you cuckold apologists that are like 2 years late to the party should STFU lol

 

BTS is right though

 

You guys don't even understand why the Jays are bad

 

You probably still think they are bad because they signed IKF instead of Gio Urshela. That was one of your main complaints lol

[The Cats Ass]

BTS is right though

 

You guys don't even understand why the Jays are bad

 

You probably still think they are bad because they signed IKF instead of Gio Urshela. That was one of your main complaints lol

 

They've been bad because players we thought we could count on have been hot garbage. Bichette is at -0.5 WAR, Springer has a wRC+ of 68. We have numerous good RPs that seem to have forgot how to throw a ball. This team needs a wakeup, Schneider needs to be fired. Let Mattingly take over.

[Pendleton]

No one could have possibly predicted that Vlad/Bo/Springer/Kirk would all be so incredibly terrible to start the season. Hell if you combined any two of their OPS and told me that was Vlad or Bo's number alone, that would have seemed far more likely than the current scenario.

[mphenhef]

Swanson had 1.4 WAR last year for $1,250,000, Teoscar had 2.1 WAR for $14,000,000 plus the Jays got SP prospect Macko and then Teo walked away from the Mariners for sweet F all

 

So yeah, it was a steal really

 

Whatever he's doing with the Dodgers this year has absolutely no bearing on that trade in any way

 

Atkins deserves to be criticized for some things, but that trade isn't one of them

 

Counterpoint, The complete inability to draft and develop any relievers after ten years forced them to make a trade for an RP. A well run team shouldn't need to trade for relief pitchers every single year.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Counterpoint, The complete inability to draft and develop any relievers after ten years forced them to make a trade for an RP. A well run team shouldn't need to trade for relief pitchers every single year.

 

That's true, but its not really a counter point because the point of my post was that the Swanson trade was solid value.

[Brownie19]

Counterpoint, The complete inability to draft and develop any relievers after ten years forced them to make a trade for an RP. A well run team shouldn't need to trade for relief pitchers every single year.

 

I mean - you could draft and develop an OFer too right?

[MikeM3]

Teo couldn't see the ball at Safeco he said. He's basically hit everywhere except Safeco in the last few years.

 

Mathematically the trade was fine I suppose. He would have hit better here probably.

 

But it's easier to conjure up a good reliever than a clean up hitter and you'd prefer to not need to make that trade.

 

But our best homegrown RPs are from the AA days somehow. Romano and Mayza.

[BigCecil]

The issue is a systemic failure to identify young talent, develop it, and graduate it to the MLB roster. They've had almost 10 years now to develop a pipeline of talent and it hasn't happened. I have no idea what changes have to be made to address that. But they've been constantly forced to build their roster from MLB players acquired from outside the organization. And they've mostly done a pretty good job of it. But you can't continue to compete while getting zero impact talent internally.

 

Its easy to get into transaction by transaction arguments, but this post nails the real crux of the issue and current challenge/opportunity.

[glory]

Counterpoint, The complete inability to draft and develop any relievers after ten years forced them to make a trade for an RP. A well run team shouldn't need to trade for relief pitchers every single year.

 

Yeah, Hernandez was coming off a 3 WAR/130 wRC+ season (and a 4 WAR/140 wRC+ season the year before). You shouldn’t have to trade a bat like that for a non elite reliever. It speaks to the team’s inability to develop pitching internally as well as the inability to find scrap heap guys and turn them around. Trading Teo might have also been partly a salary dump, but they ended up spending that money anyway (KK, Belt), so it may have been more of a perceived fit issue. As mentioned, Teo’s numbers at Safeco were dreadful but aside from that he’s been pretty consistent since 2020. Whether he would have hit in 2023 had he stayed with the new RC dimensions and Mattingly trying to cut his K% to 18% is anyone’s guess, but not surprised he’s bounced back with the Dodgers. Either way, I hope we don’t see too many more trades like Teo/Swanson during competitive windows. I guess if Macko turns into something then that changes things but RPs (especially those with no track records like Swanson prior to 2022) are very risky in general.

[Laika]

The RP need part of the story isn't even that relevant

 

Toronto probably just didn't see Teoscar as having much surplus value on his projected arb 3 money so they dealt him for whatever and then made the value signing of KK with the budget

 

Funny enough, if Toronto decides they don't want Vlad's final arbitration year we could see a similar thing play out.

 

2025 - Vlad traded for a reliever and a B prospect because his $23M projected arb salary is gross. Toronto uses part of the money to sign some 1 year replacement... maybe a late 30s guy like Rizzo, JDM, or Goldschmidt or another one of these year-to-year DH types like Pederson. Vlad scuffles in his new scenery because low IQ but there is still endless talk about "trading Vladdy for a reliever." 2026 - Vlad signs a pillow contract in a big market and hits 50 homers. The reliever Toronto got for him in 2025 loses 2 mph on his fastball before 2026 and has his ring finger amputated due to chagas.

[Jimcanuck]

The team has no mojo. They need a rally sausage or something.

[Laika]

How about anytime someone homers they get to ice bath vlad

 

when vlad homers he does it to himself

 

dunk tank

[Brownie19]

It's like everyone forgets how much they s*** on this team's defense after the 2022 season, especially after the WC game debacle. LGJ, Springer, Teo in the OF was horrendous defensively and change was 100% needed. Springer couldn't play another season in CF, Teo's K% was climbing, defense was still s*** and we all laughed at LGJ getting a gold glove award nomination in 2021.

 

We clearly needed a CF of the future - hence the Varsho deal.

 

Could we have just moved Teo to DH? Sure, we could have, but he was a fairly expensive DH who's bat was showing cracks in the armor. He was also entering the last year of his deal and I don't think anyone felt they wanted Teo back on a multi-year deal into his mid 30's. So they dealt him, strengthen the bullpen, used the extra money to sign KK and brough in Belt to DH instead of Teo.

 

Swanson gave us 1.2 WAR

KK gave us 2.8 WAR

Belt gave us 2.2 WAR

 

Teo gave Seattle 1.8 WAR

 

Hate Atkins all you want, but even the largest moron on this board should be able to objectively look at this move and go "well f*** me - that worked out really well"

[The Cats Ass]

Yeah, Hernandez was coming off a 3 WAR/130 wRC+ season (and a 4 WAR/140 wRC+ season the year before). You shouldn’t have to trade a bat like that for a non elite reliever. It speaks to the team’s inability to develop pitching internally as well as the inability to find scrap heap guys and turn them around. Trading Teo might have also been partly a salary dump, but they ended up spending that money anyway (KK, Belt), so it may have been more of a perceived fit issue. As mentioned, Teo’s numbers at Safeco were dreadful but aside from that he’s been pretty consistent since 2020. Whether he would have hit in 2023 had he stayed with the new RC dimensions and Mattingly trying to cut his K% to 18% is anyone’s guess, but not surprised he’s bounced back with the Dodgers. Either way, I hope we don’t see too many more trades like Teo/Swanson during competitive windows. I guess if Macko turns into something then that changes things but RPs (especially those with no track records like Swanson prior to 2022) are very risky in general.

 

We signed Belt to replace Teoscar. Belt went on to hit better than Teo did the previous 2 years. You're viewing this trade with blinders on and a fantasy baseball mindset.

[The Cats Ass]

The RP need part of the story isn't even that relevant

 

Toronto probably just didn't see Teoscar as having much surplus value on his projected arb 3 money so they dealt him for whatever and then made the value signing of KK with the budget

 

Funny enough, if Toronto decides they don't want Vlad's final arbitration year we could see a similar thing play out.

 

2025 - Vlad traded for a reliever and a B prospect because his $23M projected arb salary is gross. Toronto uses part of the money to sign some 1 year replacement... maybe a late 30s guy like Rizzo, JDM, or Goldschmidt or another one of these year-to-year DH types like Pederson. Vlad scuffles in his new scenery because low IQ but there is still endless talk about "trading Vladdy for a reliever." 2026 - Vlad signs a pillow contract in a big market and hits 50 homers. The reliever Toronto got for him in 2025 loses 2 mph on his fastball before 2026 and has his ring finger amputated due to chagas.

 

Honestly this is what we should do, unless Vlad starts hitting, he won't be worth his salary next year. I'm not sure Atkins will be allowed to though because of the casuals and optics. Unless we can somehow sign Soto, give him Vladdy's money +. If we signed Soto, non-tender Vlad, I don't care.

[Brownie19]

Honestly this is what we should do, unless Vlad starts hitting, he won't be worth his salary next year. I'm not sure Atkins will be allowed to though because of the casuals and optics. Unless we can somehow sign Soto, give him Vladdy's money +. If we signed Soto, non-tender Vlad, I don't care.

 

There's no chance Soto is signing here. Soto probably doesn't even know where Toronto is. We're going into a rebuild.

[wilko]

BTS is right though

 

You guys don't even understand why the Jays are bad

 

You probably still think they are bad because they signed IKF instead of Gio Urshela. That was one of your main complaints lol

 

Gross who wanted Urshela?