General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[max silver]

Do we purposely draft poorly, use international signing money poorly and develop poorly because we have the money to spend in free agency and want to give the other clubs a shot..lol

 

The Jays lost the least man games due to injury this year and had a luxury tax payroll. Atkins should have been fired. It's pretty cut and dried.

 

Yay more surface level evaluation. Lose the wrong players that you don't have the necessary depth to cover (Romano nearly full season, Swanson early on, Garcia and Green at times) and it can quickly bury a season. Combine the loss of these players with unexpected underperformance on top of that (Romano when healthy, Swanson early on, Mayza and Richards) and you have the recipe for the disaster the Blue Jays bullpen turned into. The front office is absolutely responsible for the complete inability to produce their own relievers but at the same time I don't know if a single team in the sport could have replaced nearly a full leverage relief group from within.

[Jays24]

Not gonna complain about the Springer signing. We knew we had to give the extra year for him to come here and most were happy with it at the time.

 

I still don't think he's completely done as a player. He plays well at RF and can be an effective 5th hitter or so. It's just the days of him batting leadoff should be considered over and not something this front office should be relying upon.

[hanton]

Perfectly fine with the Springer signing, IMO he's not done yet

[BTS]

10 WAR in 4 seasons for Springer. It's really not the end of the world, and there are only 2 years left. Many worse deals are signed every offseason. Hopefully he remains playable for the final two years.

[Brownie19]

Do we purposely draft poorly, use international signing money poorly and develop poorly because we have the money to spend in free agency and want to give the other clubs a shot..lol

 

The Jays lost the least man games due to injury this year and had a luxury tax payroll. Atkins should have been fired. It's pretty cut and dried.

 

Thanks for your contribution. This has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

[Olerud363]

10 WAR in 4 seasons for Springer. It's really not the end of the world, and there are only 2 years left. Many worse deals are signed every offseason. Hopefully he remains playable for the final two years.

 

First 4 years with Jays he is the same age as Joe Carter first 4 years with Jays.

 

Springer has more WAR despite missing more games (though Carter missed 50 games because of strike).

[Laika]

10 WAR in 4 seasons for Springer. It's really not the end of the world, and there are only 2 years left. Many worse deals are signed every offseason. Hopefully he remains playable for the final two years.

 

way too much typing happening about a mediocre result on a free agent signing

 

Springer still does enough things well and at the end of the year I think the projection systems still liked him as a 2.3 WAR player going forward

 

So it's not like these final two seasons even have a "bad" outlook all things considered it's just contextual disappointment that he didn't perform/produce in 2024 and 2023 as hoped.

 

 

It might end up as one of those weird FA deals where the player is just okay the whole time, rather than really good on the front end and useless in the final years.

[Brownie19]

10 WAR in 4 seasons for Springer. It's really not the end of the world, and there are only 2 years left. Many worse deals are signed every offseason. Hopefully he remains playable for the final two years.

 

I'd agree. Even if you believe the results are much more important than merits of the initial decision, the contract hasn't been "bad". When you combine it with the merits of the initial decision - it's hard to get too upset about this deal. If fans are upset at this deal - then they must not want any top FA's to sign because they call come with risk and outcomes that are outside of the team's control.

 

I think we can move on though. I don't want to get skoool'd again.

Edited October 7, 2024 by Brownie19

[BatFlip]

I'd agree. Even if you believe the results are much more important than merits of the initial decision, the contract hasn't been "bad". When you combine it with the merits of the initial decision - it's hard to get too upset about this deal. If fans are upset at this deal - then they must not want any top FA's to sign because they call come with risk and outcomes that are outside of the team's control.

 

I think we can move on though. I don't want to get skoool'd again.

 

 

Imagine! A high priced FA signing that didn't work out perfectly! I think at the time, Springer was a decent gamble and unfortunately the contract came with one more year than I would have liked. That's the reality of the free agent market. If you want to land impact players you have to put your big boy pants on and take some risks.

 

I wouldn't assume the guy is washed either, he could very well be a 2 - 2.5 WAR outfielder and still provide some value on the field. In addition (vetrin presents), the guy seems like a great teammate and brings some much needed experience to the club.

[saskjayfan]

Thanks for your contribution. This has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

 

Ok...the Springer signing wasn't a bad one. That one decision aside, Atkins sucks and should have been fired. Are you happy now.

[Ryu In My House]

The George Springer deal is actually remarkably close to the Russell Martin deal so far in terms of production. And the actual salary/contract is comparable too if you account for inflation and the rise of player salaries.

 

IMO both contracts are fine, both guys aged faster than expected. Only difference is the 2015/16 Jays actually did something with Martin's peak whereas the 2021/22 Jays wasted Springer's good years.

 

That is a very good comparable.

[Brownie19]

That is a very good comparable.

 

That's ironic, as I think the Russell Martin deal was almost universally viewed as being a "great move".

[Stangstag]

That's ironic, as I think the Russell Martin deal was almost universally viewed as being a "great move".

 

Like I was saying, the postseason results are really influencing people’s opinions here.

 

And Springer still has a couple years left to prove his worth so we’ll have to wait and see.

[G-Snarls]

Everywhere Martin went his team was in the post season a lot

[Ryu In My House]

That's ironic, as I think the Russell Martin deal was almost universally viewed as being a "great move".

 

I don't know about ironic. I remember being more pumped by the Martin signing, mostly because he is Canadian, but both were meh+ for me. As a contrast, when I found out Fernandez and McGriff were traded, as I was driving on the highway, I pulled over and just sat slack-jawed beside the highway for 10 minutes. When the jays traded for Dickie and all the Miami Marlins I was pretty pumped. Springer and Martin, for me anyway, elicited a "huh" response.

[G-Snarls]

I don't know about ironic. I remember being more pumped by the Martin signing, mostly because he is Canadian, but both were meh+ for me. As a contrast, when I found out Fernandez and McGriff were traded, as I was driving on the highway, I pulled over and just sat slack-jawed beside the highway for 10 minutes. When the jays traded for Dickie and all the Miami Marlins I was pretty pumped. Springer and Martin, for me anyway, elicited a "huh" response.

 

Also, Ryu to me was the one to me that felt like a turning of the tides. They've added significant free agents pretty steadily since.

 

Martin was AA's only big FA splash.

[Olerud363]

I don't know about ironic. I remember being more pumped by the Martin signing, mostly because he is Canadian, but both were meh+ for me. As a contrast, when I found out Fernandez and McGriff were traded, as I was driving on the highway, I pulled over and just sat slack-jawed beside the highway for 10 minutes. When the jays traded for Dickie and all the Miami Marlins I was pretty pumped. Springer and Martin, for me anyway, elicited a "huh" response.

 

A trade that never would have happened in the fangraphs era. 11 1990 WAR one way 1 the other... over the next two years though Carter/Alomar played much better and beat Fernandez McGriff about 8-6 in WAR each year.

 

Sad that the two biggest acquisition 'moments' for a lot of us this century where the Darvish Signing (announced at 10:00 one December night by New Hampshire reporter, retracted 2 minutes later), and the Ohtani signing (announced 2 or 3 times one Friday in December, retracted soon after).

[Dick_Pole]

Holy f***. The same stupid circular arguments over and over. The team's trade and free agent history, looking at the entire body of work, is fine. This team is where is is because it sucks dog balls at drafting and developing. Despite all the resources it supposedly has.

 

I'm way too lazy to fact check this. But my guess is the ratio of 2024 WAR from players acquired outside of the organization compared to internally is through the roof. Well above average, maybe highest in the MLB. Certainly on the pitching end since that number is basically infinite this year. The Jays also massively underperformed on WAR versus expected WAR in 2024. My guess is that externally acquired players were more or less in line, while internal options were the reason for the tank.

 

It's one thing to have a barren farm system. Teams can compete with that. But when basically all the top prospects who graduated from 2019-2021 simultaneously take a big s*** or are injured a few years later, that is a serious indictment of the incompetence of this regime. Doing a deep dive on the Springer contract doesn't change that fact. This is the new Varsho trade. Just trying to find something to nitpick at while glossing over the root cause of this team's suckage.

[Brownie19]

Springer and Martin, for me anyway, elicited a "huh" response.

 

You were confused when the team landed star players coming off B2B 5-6 WAR seasons - right in the middle of their competitive window? That is bizarre.

[metafour]

I'm way too lazy to fact check this. But my guess is the ratio of 2024 WAR from players acquired outside of the organization compared to internally is through the roof. Well above average, maybe highest in the MLB. Certainly on the pitching end since that number is basically infinite this year.

 

Guerrero, Kirk, Horwitz, Jimenez, Jansen, Biggio, Schneider, Berroa, Bichette, and Lukes combined for 13.7 fWAR. I'm counting Lukes because he was signed as a minor leaguer and never played any MLB games with any other organization. They had a total of 22.7 position player fWAR on the season, so slightly over 60% of their position player WAR was "home grown".

 

You are correct that on the pitching side everyone apart from Francis was signed or acquired as an existing MLB player from outside the organization, however the team only had 8.1 total combined fWAR from the pitchers. Guerrero and Kirk alone combined for 8.3 fWAR.

 

So no, your premise isn't correct. I think someone brought this up already, but the Padres entire team apart from Jackson Merrill, Matt Waldron, and a couple relievers was brought in from elsewhere.

[Stangstag]

Guerrero, Kirk, Horwitz, Jimenez, Jansen, Biggio, Schneider, Berroa, Bichette, and Lukes combined for 13.7 fWAR. I'm counting Lukes because he was signed as a minor leaguer and never played any MLB games with any other organization. They had a total of 22.7 position player fWAR on the season, so slightly over 60% of their position player WAR was "home grown".

 

You are correct that on the pitching side everyone apart from Francis was signed or acquired as an existing MLB player from outside the organization, however the team only had 8.1 total combined fWAR from the pitchers. Guerrero and Kirk alone combined for 8.3 fWAR.

 

So no, your premise isn't correct. I think someone brought this up already, but the Padres entire team apart from Jackson Merrill, Matt Waldron, and a couple relievers was brought in from elsewhere.

 

Probably the same case for the Dodgers too no?

[Ryu In My House]

You were confused when the team landed star players coming off B2B 5-6 WAR seasons - right in the middle of their competitive window? That is bizarre.

 

Not "huh?", more "meh". Sorry.

[Ryu In My House]

A trade that never would have happened in the fangraphs era. 11 1990 WAR one way 1 the other... over the next two years though Carter/Alomar played much better and beat Fernandez McGriff about 8-6 in WAR each year.

 

Sad that the two biggest acquisition 'moments' for a lot of us this century where the Darvish Signing (announced at 10:00 one December night by New Hampshire reporter, retracted 2 minutes later), and the Ohtani signing (announced 2 or 3 times one Friday in December, retracted soon after).

 

The Darvish thing was really hard to swallow. I almost wanted to quit liking baseball at that point. With Ohtani, I thought here we are again...I left work early to go home and follow the frenzy, only to be punched in the gut. Being a fan really sucks sometimes.

[Brownie19]

Not "huh?", more "meh". Sorry.

 

You don't seem to be easily impressed...

[Stangstag]

You don't seem to be easily impressed...

 

Signs a catcher coming off a 6.1 WAR season to the biggest FA deal for a catcher ever

 

Meh

[Spanky99]

You don't seem to be easily impressed...

 

Hah!

[Spanky99]

4 games tomorrow...

[Stangstag]

4 games tomorrow...

 

Last time there will be 4 on at once until next year.

 

I always loved the days of 4 playoff games.

[BatFlip]

Signs a catcher coming off a 6.1 WAR season to the biggest FA deal for a catcher ever

 

Meh

 

lol

[glory]

 

This got me thinking how different this competitive window would have looked had the Jays succeeded in trading for Lindor. This was 2021, so chances are trading for Lindor would have meant no Semien, and Bichette likely never plays SS again for this team from 2021-present. Of course it would help to know what the trade actually looked like in terms of which players the Jays were losing.