General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[jaysblue]

That is bizarre. Would love to hear their side of the story.

 

[jaysblue]

Very disappointing if you ask me. Shows you that Atkins and this FO really botched last offseason when there were clearly lineup upgrades available. Not saying Pederson would have put this team over the top, but heck he would have been a better bat than Turner and the Jays needed a left-handed bat with pop from DH or a corner OF spot.

[jaysblue]

That sucks. His bat in the lineup would have been huge.

 

Don't understand the Blue Jays thinking here. If he was willing to sign here for around $12.5M on a one-year deal (or maybe a bit more), how do you not further pursue that? He would have been a nice fit at DH.

[Stangstag]

Yeah that's really surprising if the team actually chose Turner when they had a legitimate opportunity to sign Joc. The only benefit I can see is that Turner didn't look like he needed to be platooned at the time of signing and could be closer to a full time player.

 

They must’ve thought Turner could play a passable 3B?? Who the f knows

[AMS528]

So that is now two different players who have said the Jays didn't seem particularly committed to obtaining them (Chapman/Joc). With Chapman he said they only came in right at the end, and with Joc even though he apparently was interested, and cost the same as turner, and was younger, and is left handed they weren't willing to come in with a real offer.

 

Once you can probably chalk up to it being the player in that case, twice is embarrassing to have players specifically comment on the process with the team and is a clear indictment of the front office staff. Atkins has to go at the least and maybe Shapiro as well unless he really is super hands off on personnel stuff.

 

Just again bizarre as well from a from the player evaluation perspective. Why choose the oldest position player in the league to sign if you had other options who were interested in playing for you at an affordable price? In what circumstance with any understanding of the baseball aging curve does it make sense to sign the oldest position player out there? Also not even the old DH option that was the clear best hitter of the bunch with excellent peripherals (JD Martinez).

 

If it was actually like what was implied, where players wanted to play elsewhere sure, you can't force anyone to sign here and that's fair, but now we're getting more than one piece of info that seems to make it fairly clear that this was not the case. These were choices.

Edited July 15, 2024 by AMS528

[BatFlip]

So that is now two different players who have said the Jays didn't seem particularly committed to obtaining them (Chapman/Joc). With Chapman he said they only came in right at the end, and with Joc even though he apparently was interested, and cost the same as turner, and was younger, and is left handed they weren't willing to come in with a real offer.

 

Once you can probably chalk up to it being the player in that case, twice is embarrassing to have players specifically comment on the process with the team and is a clear indictment of the front office staff. Atkins has to go at the least and maybe Shapiro as well unless he really is super hands off on personnel stuff.

 

Just again bizarre as well from a from the player evaluation perspective. Why choose the oldest position player in the league to sign if you had other options who were interested in playing for you at an affordable price? In what circumstance with any understanding of the baseball aging curve does it make sense to sign the oldest position player out there?

 

If it was actually like what was implied, where players wanted to play elsewhere sure, you can't force anyone to sign with out, but now we're getting more than one piece of info that seems to make it fairly clear that this was not the case. These were choices.

 

Could be three if you include Teo:

 

“At the beginning, they said to not forget about them. Obviously when we exchanged numbers and years and all that stuff, they said they could not go that far. That was about it,” Hernández stated.

 

It's hard to fathom how the off-season went down, unless there really is a different side to all these individual stories from the players. Not that any of these signings would really matter in terms of in-season results given the complete collapse of the pitching staff, BUT, certainly matters when evaluating the competence of the front office.

[L54]

Why didn’t Brandon Belt ever get a deal?

[BTS]

Is anyone actually surprised that Ross Atkins is apparently a terrible communicator? Like, there's no way this is the guy you want closing deals. Probably keeps a 7-3 schedule and refuses to take calls after hours.

[AMS528]

Why didn’t Brandon Belt ever get a deal?

 

Honestly this has confused me as to why he didn't get any kind of flyer. But I'm going to assume that because he did overperform his peripherals, and had a very scare strikeout rate teams figured they could do better with less risk or go internal. Still he absolutely mashed righties last year.

[Stangstag]

Very disappointing if you ask me. Shows you that Atkins and this FO really botched last offseason when there were clearly lineup upgrades available. Not saying Pederson would have put this team over the top, but heck he would have been a better bat than Turner and the Jays needed a left-handed bat with pop from DH or a corner OF spot.

 

This is a nice little f*** you to all the homers here that keep saying “YOU DONT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED BEHIND THE SCENES X PLAYER WAS NEVER COMING HERE”.

 

End of the day, the GM has failed to bring in worthwhile players with the 40ish million he had to play around with this offseason.

[AMS528]

This is a nice little f*** you to all the homers here that keep saying “YOU DONT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED BEHIND THE SCENES X PLAYER WAS NEVER COMING HERE”.

 

End of the day, the GM has failed to bring in worthwhile players with the 40ish million he had to play around with this offseason.

 

I think it's probably fair to both note that IKF had a fantastic first half of the season, he has been a good signing and also that he probably has been lucky with his bat and would probably hit at closer to his career levels over the rest of the season.

 

But from a what does this team need standpoint, the team needed hitting more than fielding, it appears they had more options than were initially reported, and they did not bring in the right ones.

[Stangstag]

Why didn’t Brandon Belt ever get a deal?

 

Yeah kinda odd. His medicals must be f***ed

[Laika]

I think ppl are overreacting to this.

 

We already knew how Atkins/Toronto operated. They keep communication open with everybody as long as possible.

 

On their specific choices:

 

1) can't fault them for choosing IKF over Chapman for the money, in light of IKF's performance.

2) Can absolutely fault them for choosing KK over a different OF addition, specifically a more offensive-oriented corner OF. However, not fair to think of Teoscar as a discrete decision since he cost so much more. Toronto would have needed to let Green walk and not sign KK in order to get him. Or not sign Yariel? That gets them close. Yes in hindsight, should have not signed KK and should have let Green walk, and ponied up for Teoscar, but that's a little too complex to be a valid complaint.

3) Can absolutely fault them for choosing Turner of Pederson now, in light of this new info. And this one is tougher to perform apologetics on because it is basically a pick 'em situation for about even money. It seems like all of the reasons to prefer Justin Turner were just kind of stupid. Like, veteran presents and the fact that he still owned an old 3B glove.

[Stangstag]

I think it's probably fair to both note that IKF had a fantastic first half of the season, he has been a good signing and also that he probably has been lucky with his bat and would probably hit at closer to his career levels over the rest of the season.

 

But from a what does this team need standpoint, the team needed hitting more than fielding, it appears they had more options than were initially reported, and they did not bring in the right ones.

 

IKF looks to be the only decent signing of the offseason, but even that was an overpay IMO.

 

Who else was giving IKF that kind of deal?

[max silver]

This is a nice little f*** you to all the homers here that keep saying “YOU DONT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED BEHIND THE SCENES X PLAYER WAS NEVER COMING HERE”.

 

End of the day, the GM has failed to bring in worthwhile players with the 40ish million he had to play around with this offseason.

 

If they tried to bring in Chapman at the last moment it appears as though they had more than $40 million to work with and just chose not to spend the money for whatever reason. I sort of get shades of 2017 where the team only signed short term lower AAV deals and didn't really make a full hearted attempt to compete for the next few seasons as they rebuilt behind the scenes. If they actually had 60+ million to work with that would have opened the door to a lot more effective offseason than what was ultimately the case.

[BTS]

Speaking of Brandon Belt: Votto just had a golden sombrero in his most recent game for Dunedin. I hope he just hangs them up. The last thing this wretched season needs is Votto swinging a pool noodle for a last place team for a couple weeks and then getting DFA'd.

[Terminator]

They must’ve thought Turner could play a passable 3B?? Who the f knows

 

Yeah I've been saying this the whole time. They didn't fully trust IKF to be the full-time 3B and hoped to fill the position with a kitchen sink approach. They were probably hoping to get 80 games out of IKF, 40 out of Turner, some out of Biggio, some out of Clement and the rest out of the Buffalo boys. There was also an opportunity to revisit the position at the trade deadline too.

 

The plan actually kind of worked insofar as 3B is concerned because IKF turned out to be the best player on the entire team until he got hurt. Unfortunately, Turner can't play 3B at all which was stupid to think he could. And his 40 year old bat has slowed to the point that he's not a good DH either.

[max silver]

IKF looks to be the only decent signing of the offseason, but even that was an overpay IMO.

 

Who else was giving IKF that kind of deal?

 

Apparently there was competition for IKF so if the Blue Jays didn't hand him that deal someone else would have. I still like the Rodriguez signing as well as I think he has the necessary arsenal to at least be an effective back of the rotation pitcher. If he can iron out the command to find a little more consistency in the strike zone he could eventually perform more like a mid rotation arm for 5th starter money.

[Terminator]

Is anyone actually surprised that Ross Atkins is apparently a terrible communicator? Like, there's no way this is the guy you want closing deals. Probably keeps a 7-3 schedule and refuses to take calls after hours.

 

During the fog of war both sides have the potential to flub communication. Freddie Freeman is a great example.

 

Joc Pederson's camp could have literally told the Jays he prefers the West Coast so you better up your offer. The Jays took it too literal instead of as a negotiating tactic and the end result is Pederson signed in Arizona. Now Pederson, who will be a FA again, and as an aging DH needs as many suitors as he can get, has a chance to walk back those comments because they are playing the Jays and does so.

 

Hell, the Jays themselves could be in the market for a DH again. Smart move by Joc to put these comments out there.

[Jays24]

This is why you simply judge management based on their damn results. There's always a bunch of Shatkins apologist that think "they had no choice" and we all know who they are. If you can't tell how these idiots operate after 9 years then that's your problem for being surprised.

 

They were nearly universally hated by the 2015/2016 teams for years and I'd go as far as saying were a big reason why Doc Halladay's wife didn't choose the Blue Jays when he went into the HoF. These douches have 0 people skills and treat everyone like they're robots, on and off the field. Firing both needs to happen asap.

 

/rant

[Terminator]

They were nearly universally hated by the 2015/2016 teams for years and I'd go as far as saying were a big reason why Doc Halladay's wife didn't choose the Blue Jays when he went into the HoF. These douches have 0 people skills and treat everyone like they're robots, on and off the field. Firing both needs to happen asap.

 

/rant

 

I'm still pissed about this one. I would love to know the full story.

 

Seems like Shapiro:

-Didn't understand how important it was to the franchise. He was pretty new to the franchise. We have had some team success, but we don't have a ton of all-time greats.

-Didn't even think it was a possibility that he wouldn't go in with a Jays cap. But when Doc died, all bets were off.

-And as a result of the first two, just didn't kiss his wife's ass as much as he should have. Meanwhile, the Phillies did.

 

That said, once Doc died, the Jays had some severe disadvantages. The Halladays were Americans who lived in Pennsylvania. It's harder for Toronto to give the family as many perks as the Phillies could. The Phillies can give her and the fam season tickets, box seats with the owners, invite the family to all the parties and functions, etc. The Jays can do that as well, but it would be harder for the fam to take advantage of it.

 

Regardless, this is why teams should be very careful when they trade their Hall of Famers. We got a pile of s*** (the prospects) followed by a kick in the nuts (no Jays cap on his HoF plaque).

[Omar]

Don't understand the Blue Jays thinking here. If he was willing to sign here for around $12.5M on a one-year deal (or maybe a bit more), how do you not further pursue that? He would have been a nice fit at DH.

 

The fact that the Jays were in talks with him and ended up not even tendering him an offer sounds like someone vetoed it. Maybe Shapiro? Who knows?

[wilko]

I think ppl are overreacting to this.

 

We already knew how Atkins/Toronto operated. They keep communication open with everybody as long as possible.

 

On their specific choices:

 

1) can't fault them for choosing IKF over Chapman for the money, in light of IKF's performance.

2) Can absolutely fault them for choosing KK over a different OF addition, specifically a more offensive-oriented corner OF. However, not fair to think of Teoscar as a discrete decision since he cost so much more. Toronto would have needed to let Green walk and not sign KK in order to get him. Or not sign Yariel? That gets them close. Yes in hindsight, should have not signed KK and should have let Green walk, and ponied up for Teoscar, but that's a little too complex to be a valid complaint.

3) Can absolutely fault them for choosing Turner of Pederson now, in light of this new info. And this one is tougher to perform apologetics on because it is basically a pick 'em situation for about even money. It seems like all of the reasons to prefer Justin Turner were just kind of stupid. Like, veteran presents and the fact that he still owned an old 3B glove.

 

Bo was saying to get Turner as well. Maybe that had a factor in their decision (which is dumb).

[L54]

Honestly this has confused me as to why he didn't get any kind of flyer. But I'm going to assume that because he did overperform his peripherals, and had a very scare strikeout rate teams figured they could do better with less risk or go internal. Still he absolutely mashed righties last year.

 

From nobody! Which makes it even more strange. Maybe he had a very short list of places he would go

[Spanky99]

Jesus we chose Turner over Joc Pederson? I can't see the logic in that one besides vetrin presents

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/diamondbacks-joc-pederson-blue-jays-had-interest-but-didnt-want-me-as-bad/

 

Wow... talk about dropping the ball.

[L54]

I think ppl are overreacting to this.

 

We already knew how Atkins/Toronto operated. They keep communication open with everybody as long as possible.

 

On their specific choices:

 

1) can't fault them for choosing IKF over Chapman for the money, in light of IKF's performance.

2) Can absolutely fault them for choosing KK over a different OF addition, specifically a more offensive-oriented corner OF. However, not fair to think of Teoscar as a discrete decision since he cost so much more. Toronto would have needed to let Green walk and not sign KK in order to get him. Or not sign Yariel? That gets them close. Yes in hindsight, should have not signed KK and should have let Green walk, and ponied up for Teoscar, but that's a little too complex to be a valid complaint.

3) Can absolutely fault them for choosing Turner of Pederson now, in light of this new info. And this one is tougher to perform apologetics on because it is basically a pick 'em situation for about even money. It seems like all of the reasons to prefer Justin Turner were just kind of stupid. Like, veteran presents and the fact that he still owned an old 3B glove.

 

I don’t think it’s over reacting, it’s merely just observing incompetence of the Blue Jays AI front office

 

1) they allegedly made Chapman an offer the same day the Giants did. So they hadn’t closed the book on him because they signed IKF

 

2) KK was a terrible signing from the start. Paying a defensive specialist coming off one of his best offensive seasons what could possibly go wrong

 

3) yes this one looks the worst. It’s like they were hell bent on signing the last one of the DH dudes in order to get the best deal

 

I bet the vets roll their eyes and f***ing hate when khaki Ross wanders down to field level

[Laika]

he's more of a bootcut jeans guy I think

 

The Gap

[AMS528]

I don’t think it’s over reacting, it’s merely just observing incompetence of the Blue Jays AI front office

 

1) they allegedly made Chapman an offer the same day the Giants did. So they hadn’t closed the book on him because they signed IKF

 

2) KK was a terrible signing from the start. Paying a defensive specialist coming off one of his best offensive seasons what could possibly go wrong

3) yes this one looks the worst. It’s like they were hell bent on signing the last one of the DH dudes in order to get the best deal

 

I bet the vets roll their eyes and f***ing hate when khaki Ross wanders down to field level

 

At the same position as the guy who is possibly the best defensive player in the game who is a weak bat and is forced into the corner. The guy who you traded your best asset for a year ago. For an aging (34 year old) CF. To play with your aging outfielder in Springer who is also 34. To play with the as old as f***ing possible fulltime DH you signed in Turner.

 

I also noted that IKF has been a good signing, but at the same time he is obviously outperforming his batted ball numbers and his career numbers. There's no reason to expect he'd keep that up over a full year. Chapman would probably beat him out by a 1.5 to 2 WAR over a full year. If anything Chapman has cut down on the strikeouts and has been the unlucky one with the bat. You can't be too mad with this one, IKF is fairly cheap and he'll have value defensively even if the bat falls off next year, but we'd be slightly better with Chapman over IKF.

[Laika]

The Jays paid 10M for KK after a bad, 1 WAR season

And then paid the same price for him after a good, 2.8 WAR season

 

that's not "a terrible signing from the start" it's just a signing that did not work out.

 

you can say that it was bad strategy because of player type or whatnot but c'mon there are actual criticisms of Atkins to deploy, don't be dumb

[Stangstag]

From nobody! Which makes it even more strange. Maybe he had a very short list of places he would go

 

I remember an interview w him a few weeks back where he basically said he was ready to go, wanted to play, but nobody offered him a MLB deal