General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[jaysblue]

There were definitely moves out that there that would have helped a lot. Let's say they signed Teoscar and Hoskins for instance instead of IKF, Turner and Kiermaier. That would have made a really sizable difference to the offense, but wouldn't have left much money left over for the likes of Green and Rodriguez and the pitching depth would have been even worse than it is at present. In a perfect world Rogers would have opened the purse strings a bit more than seemed to be the case as an extra 10-15 million or so extra budget would have likely made a world of difference.

 

Teoscar and Hoskins would have been nice adds. Obviously not on the level of Ohtani or Soto, but they definitely would have helped in the power department. As well, there were several other names available during the offseason who could have helped the lineup: Joc Pederson, Tyler O'Neill, Adam Duvall, JD Martinez, Jorge Soler (if they wanted to do a multiyear deal), Gary Sanchez, and Tommy Pham. Also, who knows what trades were available. Like you said, if they signed one or two of these bats, especially Teo and/or Hoskins, likely would make a sizeable difference to the offense.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Bo and Springer pounding out .800+ OPS's for the rest of the season might save this offense. Add in Kirk with a .700 OPS would also help.

 

Of course, if they do that we can't also have Varsho, Vlad and Jansen crap the bed at the same time.

[jaysblue]

Of course it's their job to figure it out, but they painted themselves into a corner building around what appears to be a rotten core. If you think they should walk the plank for expecting more out of Vlad, Bo, Kirk then fine, but it doesn't change the fact that there was f*** all they could do to "fix the offense" last off season.

 

Give me a break geez. Stop giving Atkins a free pass on everything!

[Eat My Shatkins]

Give me a break geez. Stop giving Atkins a free pass on everything!

 

Learn how to f***ing read you f***ing moron.

 

Since when is putting Atkins on the hook for building around Vlad, Bo and Kirk giving him a free pass???

 

Are you really that f***ing stupid?

[BigCecil]

Give me a break geez. Stop giving Atkins a free pass on everything!

 

Spent $50M AAV new money and simply couldn’t do anything whatsoever to improve the offense. Couldnt make a trade. Couldn’t sign anyone whatsoever who could have helped at all. Holy Kool Aid drinkers man.

[max silver]

Learn how to f***ing read you f***ing moron.

 

Since when is putting Atkins on the hook for building around Vlad, Bo and Kirk giving him a free pass???

 

Are you really that f***ing stupid?

 

Holy s*** dude you are just irrationally angry lately. We all get that Bo, Vlad, Springer and Kirk all got off to horrible starts which is the primary reason the offense was so bad in April, but that doesn't excuse the lack of effective bats added during the offseason. For most of the offseason we heard rumors from all of the baseball writers how the team intended to be big players in free agency, so it's perfectly reasonable to be disappointed when the only bat first players made to the roster were the likes of Turner and spring training invites to the likes of Vogelbach an Votto. The every day position player side were lighter hitting defense players like Kiermaier and IKF so there the front office shouldn't get a total free pass of the roster makeup as ultimately the buck stops with them.

[Laika]

Candelario - 99 wRC+

Gurriel - 85

Soler - 95

Garver - 76

Renfroe - 60

Duvall - 93

Tellez - 47

MAT - 42

Rosario - 66

Frazier - 74

Anderson - 25

Gallo - 75

Santana - 95

Whit - 55

Blackmon - 78

Turner - 88

 

IKF - 105

 

Just sign a good free agent bat, bro, it's easy bro, why didn't you just improve the offense bro

 

You know what else is hilarious? Vogelbach has a .371 xwOBA and better projections than most of the list. You could reasonably argue that he has been a rock solid signing at this point and bad luck has just rekt his numbers to date. His xwOBA is better than almost every FA bat that is having a good year.

 

xwOBA

 

Vogelbach - .371

Chapman - .348

Bellinger - .314

Hoskins - .369

Teo - .335

Pederson - .381

JDM - .363

Pham -.336

[Laika]

It's sort of just the Justin Turner decision

 

If Rossita had managed to court one of those other DH bats then things would feel very different for the offense. It is just hard to know if any even entertained Toronto. Seems like Joc wanted to be near the west coast. Seems like JDM was holding out for dumb money for too long. Hoskins required a two year commitment. Teo was a lot more in terms of AAV and there may have been some bad blood.

 

Yeah you can poo poo the KK re-signing but c'mon. You don't have to love WAR to at least understand and admit that you can't stray too far from total package thinking in pursuit of one-dimensional needs. KK probably projected as a better use of money, all things considered. No counter arguments accepted please because f*** off if you think Adam Duvall or MAT were better choices lmao.

[MikeM3]

Vogy platoons and avoids all suboptimal matchups compared to everyday players

[max silver]

That's crap. You're using hindsight to hand pick players who are having good years right now and that was no guarantee at the time. You look at Teo and Hoskins fangraphs and neither one of them are a sure thing every season. On top of that you can't guarantee they'd have the same success here as they are having on their current teams.

 

And for all you know, the Jays did talk to these players and were told no outright, or no not unless you offer way more money.

 

I'm not using hindsight in the slightest. I was big on these two players in the offseason as attainable players who would have injected much needed power into the lineup. Teoscar could have been signed had the team been willing to give him a two year deal, and that most likely would have been a very prudent move as his depressed offensive output in 2023 was a direct result of playing half of his games in Seattle.

[Laika]

PLAYER - WAR - SALARY GUARANTEED - AAV

 

IKF - 1.2 WAR - $15M - $7.5M

Chapman - 1.4 WAR - $54M - $18M

Bellinger - 0.9 WAR - $80M - $26.67M

Candelario - 0.1 WAR - $45M - $15M

Gurriel - 0.6 WAR - $42M - $14M

Soler - 0.0 WAR - $42M - $14M

Hoskins - 0.4 WAR - $34M - $17M

Garver - (0.5 WAR) - $24M - $12M

Teoscar - 1.3 WAR - $23.5M

Pederson - 1.4 WAR - $12.5M

 

Look at this f***ing slam dunk windmill through the legs free agent signing lmfao

 

You f***ing dum dums

[Eat My Shatkins]

I'm not using hindsight in the slightest. I was big on these two players in the offseason as attainable players who would have injected much needed power into the lineup. Teoscar could have been signed had the team been willing to give him a two year deal, and that most likely would have been a very prudent move as his depressed offensive output in 2023 was a direct result of playing half of his games in Seattle.

 

I would have loved Teo on a 1 year deal, he said he talked to the Jays and wanted a 3 year deal from them. Given that he didn't even break 1 fWAR last season do you really blame the Jays for not jumping at that?

 

It's all fine and dandy to say you would now that he's lighting it up in the middle of a stacked Dodgers line up though.

[max silver]

I would have loved Teo on a 1 year deal, he said he talked to the Jays and wanted a 3 year deal from them. Given that he didn't even break 1 fWAR last season do you really blame the Jays for not jumping at that?

 

It's all fine and dandy to say you would now that he's lighting it up in the middle of a stacked Dodgers line up though.

 

Projections had Teoscar signing something like a 4 year 80 million deal so I wouldn't had any serious issues with a 3 year deal.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Holy s*** dude you are just irrationally angry lately. We all get that Bo, Vlad, Springer and Kirk all got off to horrible starts which is the primary reason the offense was so bad in April, but that doesn't excuse the lack of effective bats added during the offseason. For most of the offseason we heard rumors from all of the baseball writers how the team intended to be big players in free agency, so it's perfectly reasonable to be disappointed when the only bat first players made to the roster were the likes of Turner and spring training invites to the likes of Vogelbach an Votto. The every day position player side were lighter hitting defense players like Kiermaier and IKF so there the front office shouldn't get a total free pass of the roster makeup as ultimately the buck stops with them.

 

I'm not irrationally angry, but I do find it annoying that same two or three morons pop up and claim I absolve Atkins of any blame whatsoever just because I argue that fixing the offense last off season wasn't as easy as many want to believe. He built the team, of course he has to take some of the blame. I put most of the blame on an underperforming core of players who looked like a sure thing to build around just two years ago. Clearly at this point we can all see that it was a mistake to build around them though.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Projections had Teoscar signing something like a 4 year 80 million deal so I wouldn't had any serious issues with a 3 year deal.

 

Well clearly you are in the minority as not a single MLB GM was willing to give him even a two year deal, never mind 3 or 4.

[MikeM3]

None of these signings do anything to move the needle. They're all 2 war players max. The fact he went 1 for 6 is still negligible.

[Brownie19]

None of these signings do anything to move the needle. They're all 2 war players max. The fact he went 1 for 6 is still negligible.

 

We could have signed Ohtani and still sucked balls guys.

[Eat My Shatkins]

We could have signed Ohtani and still sucked balls guys.

 

lol I mean look at this team!

 

Varsho = 1.9 fWAR

 

Vlad + Bo + Kirk = 1.9 fWAR combined

 

 

Tell please tell me again how signing Hoskins and Teo would have saved this team lmao

 

The only thing that would have saved this team is Atkins somehow having the foresight and balls to trade Vlad and Bo after 2021 0r 2022 which nobody in their right mind would have done, and if he had tried he would have had his balls immediately separated from his body by Shapiro and/or Rogers.

 

"You wanna do what Ross?!?!?"

[MikeM3]

We could have signed Ohtani and still sucked balls guys.

 

Well that move would actually push the team ceiling higher because you can't usually fit so much war in one roster spot. Teams however can luckbox their way to 1.5 win players on league min.

 

For example 40 mill for ohtani then league min 5 other spots or 40 mill for turner vog kk green and yariel?

 

Easy choice right? I think that's why Atkins tried it in the first place. But somehow when he failed this board started praising his self admitted plan B. Which, I mean, he doesn't have many alternatives. The problem is really the foundation of the team. A homerun Turner signing is like 2 war vs 0. Does nothing.

 

One hit on a 1st round pick is like a 5 war season this year which trumps all the s*** we signed

[max silver]

We could have signed Ohtani and still sucked balls guys.

 

I really don't get why you keep repeating this nonsense, with an elite bat this offense would suddenly morph into something much better. The team as a whole has produced a total of 244 weighted runs created this season, with their DH bats providing 23 of those runs. Ohtani alone has produced 53 weighted runs created this season.

 

Replacing the Jays 23 runs with Ohtani's 53 runs takes the offense to a total of 274 weighted runs created, moving them from 22nd up to 8th, and within a stones throw of the 7th place Orioles.

[Eat My Shatkins]

As much as I like to crap on Kirk:

 

Kirk - .214 / .295 / .289 / wRC+ 72 / fWAR 0.8

Moreno - .234 / .323 / .324 / wRC+ 89 / fWAR 0.9

[max silver]

lol I mean look at this team!

 

Varsho = 1.9 fWAR

 

Vlad + Bo + Kirk = 1.9 fWAR combined

 

 

Tell please tell me again how signing Hoskins and Teo would have saved this team lmao

 

The only thing that would have saved this team is Atkins somehow having the foresight and balls to trade Vlad and Bo after 2021 0r 2022 which nobody in their right mind would have done, and if he had tried he would have had his balls immediately separated from his body by Shapiro and/or Rogers.

 

"You wanna do what Ross?!?!?"

 

The team has been hitting much better over the last month or so as they've produced 117 runs over their last 25 games. This is while Turner has been absolutely horrible at the plate. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that a more effective DH bat would help a tremendous deal.

 

I think Vlad is going to be good the rest of the way, Bo was hitting much better over a 3 week sample before going cold again in the Pittsburgh series, and Kirk has rebounded nicely after a really bad two week stretch to start the season. I have confidence in each of these guys to continue to hit closer to their capabilities the rest of the way, but Turner has been so awful for the last 5 weeks or so that I'm legitimately becoming a little concerned about whether he'll turn things around before he's totally relegated to the bench.

[Laika]

Well that move would actually push the team ceiling higher because you can't usually fit so much war in one roster spot. Teams however can luckbox their way to 1.5 win players on league min.

 

For example 40 mill for ohtani then league min 5 other spots or 40 mill for turner vog kk green and yariel?

 

Easy choice right? I think that's why Atkins tried it in the first place. But somehow when he failed this board started praising his self admitted plan B. Which, I mean, he doesn't have many alternatives. The problem is really the foundation of the team. A homerun Turner signing is like 2 war vs 0. Does nothing.

 

One hit on a 1st round pick is like a 5 war season this year which trumps all the s*** we signed

 

Nobody is even really praising his plan Bs

 

Just counterpoint to the bags of garbage who expected him to somehow do something this offseason to "fix the offense"

 

The Jays issues began half a decade ago

[Eat My Shatkins]

I really don't get why you keep repeating this nonsense, with an elite bat this offense would suddenly morph into something much better. The team as a whole has produced a total of 244 weighted runs created this season, with their DH bats providing 23 of those runs. Ohtani alone has produced 53 weighted runs created this season.

 

Replacing the Jays 23 runs with Ohtani's 53 runs takes the offense to a total of 274 weighted runs created, moving them from 22nd up to 8th, and within a stones throw of the Orioes.

 

 

Ohtani is a legit difference maker for sure, which is why the jays actually pulled out all the stops to try and land him, even it was a futile attempt it was their only real hope at "fixing the offense".

 

It was also rumored that they looked into acquiring Soto as well, another legit difference maker. As I've said numerous times, the only two real legit options at legitimately fixing this team. Everything else was just noise and armchair GMs using hindsight to hand pick the success stories so far this season.

[Eat My Shatkins]

The team has been hitting much better over the last month or so as they've produced 117 runs over their last 25 games. This is while Turner has been absolutely horrible at the plate. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that a more effective DH bat would help a tremendous deal.

 

I think Vlad is going to be good the rest of the way, Bo was hitting much better over a 3 week sample before going cold again in the Pittsburgh series, and Kirk has rebounded nicely after a really bad two week stretch to start the season. I have confidence in each of these guys to continue to hit closer to their capabilities the rest of the way, but Turner has been so awful for the last 5 weeks or so that I'm legitimately becoming a little concerned about whether he'll turn things around before he's totally relegated to the bench.

 

Turner is now the only regular starter who is dragging this team backwards, with a -0.4 fWAR

 

The stars haven't contributed enough, which is the biggest problem, but a guy like Turner is actually sucking the life out of the offense. I mean he was over 1 fWAR after April IIRC. They cannot afford to keep feeding him regular ABs at this point.

[MikeM3]

Nobody is even really praising his plan Bs

 

Just counterpoint to the bags of garbage who expected him to somehow do something this offseason to "fix the offense"

 

The Jays issues began half a decade ago

 

Fixing the offence comes down to the org structure not the players. The players are just fungible holograms that steadily decline with more exposure to the org

[Laika]

Fixing the offence comes down to the org structure not the players. The players are just fungible holograms that steadily decline with more exposure to the org

 

Exactly

 

Fire Atkins but don't necessarily just fire sale this year

 

Maybe a new leader could put new systems in place that will fix some of the bats for 2025

 

Imagine this team with Kirk, Vlad, Bo, Varsho, Schneider, Clement, Barger, Horwitz, Orelvis all performing very well. Would be pretty good.

[max silver]

Ohtani is a legit difference maker for sure, which is why the jays actually pulled out all the stops to try and land him, even it was a futile attempt it was their only real hope at "fixing the offense".

 

It was also rumored that they looked into acquiring Soto as well, another legit difference maker. As I've said numerous times, the only two real legit options at legitimately fixing this team. Everything else was just noise and armchair GMs using hindsight to hand pick the success stories so far this season.

 

Just because there were only two elite bats this season that shouldn't completely excuse the failure to add more mid tier bats to the roster.

 

There's no need to be so insulting to those that thought Teoscar was bound to rebound when he was rescued from Seattle. Or to insult those that saw the plethora of DH bats that were available and didn't want to bring in a 39 year old Justin Turner to be the primary DH. It's not hindsight when someone far preferred other players to be brought in and then saw them succeeding elsewhere.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Just because there were only two elite bats this season that shouldn't completely excuse the failure to add more mid tier bats to the roster.

 

There's no need to be so insulting to those that thought Teoscar was bound to rebound when he was rescued from Seattle. Or to insult those that saw the plethora of DH bats that were available and didn't want to bring in a 39 year old Justin Turner to be the primary DH. It's not hindsight when someone far preferred other players to be brought in and then saw them succeeding elsewhere.

 

Just because Teoscar is having a decent year doesn't mean the Jays should have signed him at 31 years old to a multi year deal worth around $20 million per season, especially after watching him go from 4.0 WAR to 2.9 WAR to 1.8 WAR in his 29/30/31 year old seasons. Only a moron would have given him a multi year deal at that point, especially after watching Springer fall of a cliff at 33 years old.

 

And Teo's 127 wRC+ isn't saving this team right now anyways, and that's assuming he'd even be putting up those numbers not sandwiched in between a bunch of future HOF bats in the Dodgers offense.

[max silver]

Just because Teoscar is having a decent year doesn't mean the Jays should have signed him at 31 years old to a multi year deal worth around $20 million per season, especially after watching him go from 4.0 WAR to 2.9 WAR to 1.8 WAR in his 29/30/31 year old seasons. Only a moron would have given him a multi year deal at that point, especially after watching Springer fall of a cliff at 33 years old.

 

And Teo's 127 wRC+ isn't saving this team right now anyways, and that's assuming he'd even be putting up those numbers not sandwiched in between a bunch of future HOF bats in the Dodgers offense.

 

It wouldn't have likely taken $40 million over two seasons to sign Teoscar in the first place. I bet something like $35 million over two years with the second year being a player option would have gotten it done. I can't say I particularly understand why you are taking such a massive dump on Teoscar, unless it's because he wasn't signed by the Blue Jays this offseason or something.

 

Teoscar's 127 wRC+ adds another power bat to the lineup, and would likely allow Schneider to primarily man second base. This has the effect of removing some of the weaker bats in the lineup such as Biggio and Clement and even Turner on certain days and replacing them with a middle of the order power bat. That's kind of a big deal. If you don't think that would help the team score more runs then I really don't know what to say at this point.

Edited June 3, 2024 by max silver