General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[max silver]

Well they're in on Soto, it's going to cost value any way you look at it.

 

Yeah you have to give something of value to get a player like Soto for sure. Aside from Manoah and Tiedemann I don't think the club has pitching assets that would be of interest to the Padres who have so many rotation holes to fill. Between the two I'd certainly prefer to move Manoah as I think Tiedemann offers more upside, but just like Manoah Tiedemann also has his own set of question marks as a long term rotation piece.

[max silver]

If you can use him to get Soto and as a result in the package you save RT. You do it all day everyday. He could just as easy be a Ricky Romero..

 

Ricky Romero foolishly pitched through knee pain and ended up ruining his career as his knees were completely ruined. According to the club there was nothing physically wrong with Alek this season, but he and his representatives seem to think he was dealing with shoulder/arm issues so who knows what to believe.

[L54]

 

There goes that

[Jays24]

I agree with everyone who wants to trade Manoah. Sign Wade Miley to be the #5, he is a FIP beater who chews innings. Ricky T the first man up.

 

Trading for Soto is like pulling a Kawhi. You go for it and hope you can re-sign him. The fact they’re in play for Ohtani shows a willingness to spend. And a left handed outfielder is one of their clearest needs

 

I can't believe I'm sounding like Shatkins here and talking about cost control for sustainable winning lol. While I like the Kawhi comparison, 1 guy in basketball can change your teams entire fortunes. It's anything but that in baseball.

 

The Yankees of all teams who desperately need to make a splash aren't willing to give up a haul for 1 year of Soto... I'm just in agreeance with this train of thought. If you want him so badly then make your push once he's a free agent.

[Spanky99]

I can't believe I'm sounding like Shatkins here and talking about cost control for sustainable winning lol. While I like the Kawhi comparison, 1 guy in basketball can change your teams entire fortunes. It's anything but that in baseball.

 

The Yankees of all teams who desperately need to make a splash aren't willing to give up a haul for 1 year of Soto... I'm just in agreeance with this train of thought. If you want him so badly then make your push once he's a free agent.

 

They didn't take the offer, because it was ludicrous.

[TheHurl]

Yeah you have to give something of value to get a player like Soto for sure. Aside from Manoah and Tiedemann I don't think the club has pitching assets that would be of interest to the Padres who have so many rotation holes to fill. Between the two I'd certainly prefer to move Manoah as I think Tiedemann offers more upside, but just like Manoah Tiedemann also has his own set of question marks as a long term rotation piece.

 

If the Jays bringing in Soto and Ohtani you would think there is a possibility that a guy like Bassitt goes the other way rather than a Ricky T. Or they trade for Soto and start looking for pitching for Springer even. I really don't think they add $70M without cutting elsewhere as the Soto deal would obviously still leave holes

[Rimar]

Yep, but if the Rays trade him. they will for sure want Manoah or Tidermann in return, so better no do that. If we have to trade them, should be for a SP like Bieber. Good SP is far more valuable than a third baseman. Even for Soto they shouldn't do this, unless he agree sign long term contract with the jays .

[max silver]

If the Jays bringing in Soto and Ohtani you would think there is a possibility that a guy like Bassitt goes the other way rather than a Ricky T. Or they trade for Soto and start looking for pitching for Springer even. I really don't think they add $70M without cutting elsewhere as the Soto deal would obviously still leave holes

 

I'd guess the club wouldn't be terribly motivated to move Bassitt as that reduces the team's starting depth a great deal, and opens up a rotation hole which needs to be filled by another pitcher likely outside of the organization.

 

I would be really surprised if another team was willing to offer any kind of value in return for Springer given the season he just had. I think he will bounce back at least somewhat in 2024, but he's seen his numbers steadily declining since signing with the team. He managed to stay remarkably healthy last season, but perhaps he would benefit from actually playing a bit less in future seasons to keep his body fresh as the season progresses.

[Rimar]

Also, 2 SP with years of control, smart gm don't trade them. Will be a bad long term move , like AA did when trading Syndergaard . Hahaha, can say the same if you have a young catcher who have strong arm, good def skills, and can hit for around 300, you don't trade him for a guy who barely can hit for 230 , no matter if have years of control and good defense skills 😄

[Rimar]

Ohtani can't pitch this year, and after 2 Tommy Jones surgery, no sure he will be SP for long. I think soon or later , he will end up DH only.

[Stangstag]

Ohtani can't pitch this year, and after 2 Tommy Jones surgery, no sure he will be SP for long. I think soon or later , he will end up DH only.

 

He can play the OF. If he’s done as a pitcher, he will be a full time OF.

[L54]

I can't believe I'm sounding like Shatkins here and talking about cost control for sustainable winning lol. While I like the Kawhi comparison, 1 guy in basketball can change your teams entire fortunes. It's anything but that in baseball.

 

The Yankees of all teams who desperately need to make a splash aren't willing to give up a haul for 1 year of Soto... I'm just in agreeance with this train of thought. If you want him so badly then make your push once he's a free agent.

 

I mean it’s the Kawhi situation where you bring in a soon to be massive free agent and make your pitch to them. In this case if Ohtani signs elsewhere (likely) and they trade for Soto they have a year to convince him to stay.

 

A big splash to show off all the new corporate seating would make a lot of sense too

[TheHurl]

Ohtani can't pitch this year, and after 2 Tommy Jones surgery, no sure he will be SP for long. I think soon or later , he will end up DH only.

 

Rather than grafting a ligament into the elbow, this operation gives the pitcher a gruff, gritty personality to handle the arm pain, plus a commanding, authoritarian presence that intimidates batters into submission.

[Jays24]

He can play the OF. If he’s done as a pitcher, he will be a full time OF.

 

If his arms done as a pitcher then he probably wouldn't have much left to throw from the OF I'm guessing? Hard to make that comment without having any history of this lol.

[Stangstag]

If his arms done as a pitcher then he probably wouldn't have much left to throw from the OF I'm guessing? Hard to make that comment without having any history of this lol.

 

Pitching is extremely different from throwing the ball in from the OF a few times a game.

 

Its Shohei Ohtani. He’s not gonna be a full-time DH in his early 30s

[John_Havok]

Ricky Romero foolishly pitched through knee pain and ended up ruining his career as his knees were completely ruined. According to the club there was nothing physically wrong with Alek this season, but he and his representatives seem to think he was dealing with shoulder/arm issues so who knows what to believe.

 

There was a post a week or so ago from a guy claiming inside knowledge from a friend (take it for what it's worth) but that post said Manoah had a shoulder issue in the offseason prior to 2023 and didn't tell the Jays about it, which made things worse.

[Laika]

Yeah the shoulder issue was that he was fat

 

fat shoulder syndrome

[Brownie19]

If his arms done as a pitcher then he probably wouldn't have much left to throw from the OF I'm guessing? Hard to make that comment without having any history of this lol.

 

That's not really now it works man. He'd be perfectly fine in the OF. And if you want some history on this, Rick Ankiel had TJ surgery, but then gave up pitching to be a full time OFer. He had an INCREDIBLE arm in the OF. Here's some proof

[Laika]

Ohtani could lose like 15 mph off his fastball and still have enough arm to play the OF, haha

[Omar]

Behind a paywall so...

 

https://theathletic.com/5109944/2023/12/03/toronto-blue-jays-ohtani-soto-offseason-urgency/

 

NASHVILLE —

Blue Jays are pursuing Shohei Ohtani and Juan Soto. What’s behind the urgency to win?

What has gotten into the Toronto Blue Jays?

 

For most of the Mark Shapiro-Ross Atkins tenure, which began in the latter part of 2015, the Jays operated in a mostly conservative fashion. They made exceptions, signing left-hander Hyun-Jin Ryu for $80 million, outfielder George Springer for $150 million and righty Kevin Gausman for $110 million. But rarely did they play at the top of the market.

This offseason, in a marked departure, the Jays are pursuing the biggest names — two-way superstar Shohei Ohtani in free agency, outfielder Juan Soto in trade. And the urgency with which Toronto is maneuvering seemingly reflects a series of circumstances that is forcing the club into win-now mode.

 

Those circumstances include:

• The Jays’ disappointing and controversial exit from the postseason, when manager John Schneider lifted Jose Berríos from a shutout in the fourth inning of Game 2 of the Division Series against the Minnesota Twins. The Blue Jays lost that game and were eliminated, and Atkins subsequently assigned sole responsibility to Schneider before later taking greater accountability. The Jays, 0-6 in the past four postseasons, have not won a playoff game since 2016.

• The restlessness of the fan base with the team’s performance at a time when Rogers Centre is undergoing a $300 million renovation, prompting a rise in ticket prices. The Yankees, Cardinals, Giants and Red Sox are among other clubs dealing with fan unrest, but the Jays’ troubles are perhaps even more acute, considering they are trying to sell new premium seating to justify the cost of their renovations.

• The threat to the team’s future competitiveness with both shortstop Bo Bichette and first baseman Vladimir Guerrero Jr. both two years away from free agency. The Jays have been unable to sign either player to an extension, raising questions about their respective desires to stay. Guerrero also might not be as attractive an extension candidate as he once was, regressing offensively since his monstrous 2021 season.

• The possibility that Shapiro and/or Atkins could be in danger of losing their jobs. Shapiro is signed through 2025, Atkins through ‘26, but pressure seemingly is mounting. The Jays’ owner, Rogers Communications, authorized a new $100 million player development complex in Dunedin, Fla., along with the $300 million in ballpark renovations. A publicly traded company, Rogers surely wants to see a return on its investments.

No longer are the Jays a young, upstart team on the rise. To the contrary, they underachieved last season while exceeding the luxury-tax threshold for the first time. And now, as they face the potential losses of third baseman Matt Chapman, outfielder Kevin Kiermaier and others in free agency, an injection of talent is needed, both to keep the team competitive and sell tickets to their newly renovated park.

The Jays hardly are guaranteed to come away with Ohtani, who also is being pursued by the Dodgers, Cubs and potentially other clubs. Ohtani is expected to command a contract of at least $500 million. While the Jays play in Canada’s largest city and represent the entire country, they generally do not engage in bidding wars with teams in the biggest U.S. markets, much less win them.

Soto also could be a long shot. The Yankees are among the other teams interested in the outfielder, and the Padres, not surprisingly, want a steep package for a hitter with a .946 career OPS (Guerrero is at .844, Bichette .826). The problem with Soto is that he amounts to a one-year, $30 million-plus rental. Represented by Scott Boras, he is almost certain to hit the open market at the end of the season.

Put it all together, and the Jays are in a precarious spot. Their pitching last season was strong, producing the second-best ERA in the American League, but their offense was decidedly average, tying for 14th in runs scored. Springer, entering the fourth of a six-year contract, is in decline. And the Toronto farm system is not exactly brimming with talent. Baseball America rated it the game’s sixth-worst in its midseason organizational rankings.

Hence, the need for a big splash. Without one, the Jays could be headed for a fall, particularly if Bichette and Guerrero both depart after 2025. The prospect is frightening. The Jays cannot afford to rebuild. Their fans will grow even more alienated if they enter a losing cycle while charging higher ticket prices.

Ohtani, who has said he wants to play for a winner after enduring six straight losing seasons with the Angels, might look at the Jays and see too many questions. Or he might be intrigued by the idea of playing in one of North America’s cleanest and most diverse cities — especially if the Jays give him the most money.

Soto would be more of a short-term play, but if he led the Jays deeper into the postseason, he might prove worth the price, both in players and dollars. At that point, perhaps the Jays could sign him to the same type of contract they evidently are willing to give Ohtani.

Ohtani, Soto, the Jays need something, anything. Their situation is pressing. A major push is warranted. They have almost no choice but to swing big. And to connect.

[connorp]

They need to save “what’s gotten into the Bluejays” until all the dust has settled. As of now, it’s par for the course.

[Brownie19]

They need to save “what’s gotten into the Bluejays” until all the dust has settled. As of now, it’s par for the course.

 

All titles are based on click potential man.

[Laika]

They need to save “what’s gotten into the Bluejays” until all the dust has settled. As of now, it’s par for the course.

 

Yeah they have been kicking the tires on most free agents or big trade targets for years now

[John_Havok]

How does everyone here feel about targeting Lee from Korea as the LF rather than trading for Soto?

 

Hypothetically I mean... would signing both Lee (4-5 years)and Ohtani(10 years) be "better" from a team standpoint when all it takes is money, vs Ohtani(10)and Soto(1) which costs money and prospects, and you'd only have Soto for 1 year?

 

Is Lee's bat good enough for that to make more sense? Again hypothetically.

[Frenchsoup]

To the Yanks- Juan Soto

To the Jays- Michael King - Kyle Higiashioka- Jake Cronenworth- Fernando Tatis

To the Padres- Alejandro Kirk- Bo Bichette- Alek Manoah- Nate Pearson- Santiago Espinal- Brandon Barriera

 

A couple more prospects from the Jay's that they don't like and maybe 1 from the Yanks. Lots of money involved....

[Frenchsoup]

Sign Lee.

[Brownie19]

How does everyone here feel about targeting Lee from Korea as the LF rather than trading for Soto?

 

Hypothetically I mean... would signing both Lee (4-5 years)and Ohtani(10 years) be "better" from a team standpoint when all it takes is money, vs Ohtani(10)and Soto(1) which costs money and prospects, and you'd only have Soto for 1 year?

 

Is Lee's bat good enough for that to make more sense? Again hypothetically.

 

I think there's a possibility they want to trade for Soto so they can sign him long term with the money they were going to extend Vlad and/or Bo with - assuming they will both walk. That has nothing to do with your question. I have no idea if Lee is good. Seems like there's a decent probability that he sucks though.

[L54]

Would rather have Soto than Lee

[BTS]

I think there's a possibility they want to trade for Soto so they can sign him long term with the money they were going to extend Vlad and/or Bo with - assuming they will both walk. That has nothing to do with your question. I have no idea if Lee is good. Seems like there's a decent probability that he sucks though.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think a Soto extension might be on the table. They probably had plans on giving 300M contracts to Vlad and Bo, but that's not looking like it's going to happen. So why not pivot to a guy who's trending towards 1st ballot HoF territory who you can lock up at 25?

[John_Havok]

I think there's a possibility they want to trade for Soto so they can sign him long term with the money they were going to extend Vlad and/or Bo with - assuming they will both walk. That has nothing to do with your question. I have no idea if Lee is good. Seems like there's a decent probability that he sucks though.

 

That's possible. An offense built around Soto and Ohtani would be insane, but also really starts to run the risk of a "Stars and scrubs" kind of composition given their current expenditures on pitching.

 

But for the next 2 seasons at least the offense could be monstrous.

 

Soto(LF), Bo(SS), Ohtani(DH), Vlad(1B), Springer(RF), Jansen/Kirk ©, Varsho (CF), Schneider (2B), *insert generic 3b here*

 

Play with the order a bit sure, but that's legit.

 

Though in 2026, assuming vlad and Bo walk, youre at 50 million for Ohtani, probably 40 for Soto, 24 for Springer (his final year), 23 million for Gausman (final year), 19 Million for Berrios(and still 2 more years left after that @24). Basically, 156 million for 5 players in 2026. 114 million for 3 players in 2027.

 

If we assume no extensions for any guys currently in house, FAs that would leave after 2025 are Bo, Vlad, Romano, Bassit, Green, Biggio, Mayza, Swanson, and Cabrera. Kikuchi, Yimi, Jansen and Richards would be already be gone.

 

I'd think that 2024 would be the all in year (possibly trading Jansen during the season if Kirk has emerged completely) and then they'd probably want to trade a decent number of guys like Vlad and/or Bo prior to 2025 because by that point the system would be so thin they'd have next to nobody coming up to offset all the big ticket salaries and those might be the only guys you could trade to get legit prospects back. Some of the pen arms would have value too but wouldn't net impact prospects in return most likely.

 

Getting both Ohtani and Soto creates a bloody amazing team, but also sets up the Jays in 2026 and 2027 to look like the 2024 Yankees