General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Jays24]

Anthopoulos traded 11 minor league players at the 2015 trade deadline, literally purging the system of most of it's better pitching prospects on the way out the door. He nearly completely emptied the cupboard for the group taking over the front office. The Blue Jays under Shapiro have not done anything remotely similar to this type of shopping spree in their time running the ship. This latest trade deadline saw the team move 4 prospects out in trade to bolster the roster. For the most part the correct prospects have been shipped out in trade, with the bulk of these traded players being on the verge of losing their value due to lack of performance or being fringe 40 man roster candidates in a system in need of consolidation due to upcoming offseason roster additions.

 

AA provided this franchise the best baseball it's seen since '93 and u wrote all that to support Shatkins? Lol

 

The Jays had the best and most entertaining roster in baseball in 2015 and were very close to winning it all. Wake me up when these guys come close to doing the same. Watching this team last year was absolutely brutal.

 

This is a results based industry and AA has clearly gone onto achieving MUCH MORE success than the guys that replaced him here. Its not even a debate for anyone but the Shatkins nuthuggers.

 

Now that doesn't mean it has to stay this way but we may have already missed our best chance to succeed with Bo and Vladdys extensions not even factoring in yet.

[Jimcanuck]

AA provided this franchise the best baseball it's seen since '93 and u wrote all that to support Shatkins? Lol

 

The Jays had the best and most entertaining roster in baseball in 2015 and were very close to winning it all. Wake me up when these guys come close to doing the same. Watching this team last year was absolutely brutal.

 

This is a results based industry and AA has clearly gone onto achieving MUCH MORE success than the guys that replaced him here. Its not even a debate for anyone but the Shatkins nuthuggers.

 

Now that doesn't mean it has to stay this way but we may have already missed our best chance to succeed with Bo and Vladdys extensions not even factoring in yet.

 

No its not a results based industry, its a profit driven industry and by that measure Shapiro is doing great

[Spanky99]

Holy f***, man.

[Krylian]

No its not a results based industry, its a profit driven industry and by that measure Shapiro is doing great

 

I guess we should start cheering for, and commenting on revenue related analytics instead or performance based ones.

[Jimcanuck]

I guess we should start cheering for, and commenting on revenue related analytics instead or performance based ones.

 

Rogers corporate, yes. Fans, no.

[max silver]

AA provided this franchise the best baseball it's seen since '93 and u wrote all that to support Shatkins? Lol

 

The Jays had the best and most entertaining roster in baseball in 2015 and were very close to winning it all. Wake me up when these guys come close to doing the same. Watching this team last year was absolutely brutal.

 

This is a results based industry and AA has clearly gone onto achieving MUCH MORE success than the guys that replaced him here. Its not even a debate for anyone but the Shatkins nuthuggers.

 

Now that doesn't mean it has to stay this way but we may have already missed our best chance to succeed with Bo and Vladdys extensions not even factoring in yet.

 

Jesus man read what I actually wrote before you start bitching. The current front office has not sold the farm at any point in their tenure unlike Anthopoulos who emptied the cupboards before he left the organization. There's a dramatic difference between trading a handful of prospects per year to supplement the MLB roster vs what happened at the 2015 trade deadline.

[burlingtonbandit]

Perhaps AA's biggest strength as a GM was his ability in contract negotiations. Even during his time in Toronto he did fantastic signing Bautista and Edwin to team friendly deals. The Yunell Escobar contract was highway robbery at the time. Then in Atlanta he convinced all their young stars to those Agent firing worthy deals. Even the Matt Olsen deal was really good.

 

Not once has their been a contract that Atkins signed where you immediately thought "what a steal". The Gauseman contract has turned out great but it was likely the biggest contract he was offered at the time plus it was FA not an extension. The Grichuk contract and Berrios deal are the only 2 that really stick out to me where FA years were bought out? Grichuk's turned out badly and Berrios looks good.

[burlingtonbandit]

Jesus man read what I actually wrote before you start bitching. The current front office has not sold the farm at any point in their tenure unlike Anthopoulos who emptied the cupboards before he left the organization. There's a dramatic difference between trading a handful of prospects per year to supplement the MLB roster vs what happened at the 2015 trade deadline.

 

I'm actually a fan of Shapiro but it is ironic he scolded AA for trading all those prospects meanwhile the organization he ran screwed up by waiting too long to trade players off the roster. If they had traded JD, Stroman, Happ and Smoak back in 2017 they could have gotten a lot better prospects than they ended up getting. In the end they got back nothing of value for all 4 of those players.

 

Meanwhile of the prospects the Jays traded in 2015 I think only Boyd really was worth decent value. But his 2-3 Win seasons from 17-19 wouldn't have done anything on those Jays teams anyways.

[jaysblue]

Perhaps AA's biggest strength as a GM was his ability in contract negotiations. Even during his time in Toronto he did fantastic signing Bautista and Edwin to team friendly deals. The Yunell Escobar contract was highway robbery at the time. Then in Atlanta he convinced all their young stars to those Agent firing worthy deals. Even the Matt Olsen deal was really good.

 

Not once has their been a contract that Atkins signed where you immediately thought "what a steal". The Gauseman contract has turned out great but it was likely the biggest contract he was offered at the time plus it was FA not an extension. The Grichuk contract and Berrios deal are the only 2 that really stick out to me where FA years were bought out? Grichuk's turned out badly and Berrios looks good.

 

They also rushed to sign Kendrys Morales after the 2016 season for some odd reason to a 3-year-deal.

 

Tanner Roark signing was awful.

 

The Grichuk extension was odd.

 

Ryu was solid in the 2020 shortened season and was meh in 2021. Combined for 4.9 fWAR in his 4 seasons here so spending $20M per season on him was a lot.

 

Springer looked good in his first couple of years here, but the latter part of his deal looks worrisome.

 

Gausman signing has been fantastic to date. But again, huge FA deal.

 

Atkins has done a good job at signing guys to one-year deals like Semien, Belt, and KK.

[burlingtonbandit]

They also rushed to sign Kendrys Morales after the 2016 season for some odd reason to a 3-year-deal.

 

Tanner Roark signing was awful.

 

The Grichuk extension was odd.

 

Ryu was solid in the 2020 shortened season and was meh in 2021. Combined for 4.9 fWAR in his 4 seasons here so spending $20M per season on him was a lot.

 

Springer looked good in his first couple of years here, but the latter part of his deal looks worrisome.

 

Gausman signing has been fantastic to date. But again, huge FA deal.

 

Atkins has done a good job at signing guys to one-year deals like Semien, Belt, and KK.

 

I was talking more about current players on the roster signing contract extensions versus FA deals because usually FA are just going to go to the highest bidder.

 

Atlanta singed Acuna, Albies, Riley, Olsen, Murphy, Strider and Harris all to deals that look very team friendly. Its too bad AA did leave in 2016 because I think he would have done very well here if you had guys in the FO telling him who to acquire and who to sign just because he is so good at negotiating.

[Jimcanuck]

AA would have signed Vlad long term

[Jimcanuck]

I'm actually a fan of Shapiro but it is ironic he scolded AA for trading all those prospects meanwhile the organization he ran screwed up by waiting too long to trade players off the roster. If they had traded JD, Stroman, Happ and Smoak back in 2017 they could have gotten a lot better prospects than they ended up getting. In the end they got back nothing of value for all 4 of those players.

 

Meanwhile of the prospects the Jays traded in 2015 I think only Boyd really was worth decent value. But his 2-3 Win seasons from 17-19 wouldn't have done anything on those Jays teams anyways.

 

It's been reported that Shatkins wanted to move those players in 2017 but Rogers corporate pushed back.

[Brownie19]

Buddy it’s not stupid when you have zero playoff wins in your entire tenure and you constantly talk about “Bringing a World Series back to Canada”

 

If the Jays had an ALCS and a couple ALDS appearances nobody would be saying s***. Instead they’ve gotten their s*** pushed in each time they limp their way to the playoffs. Then there’s guys like you throwing their hands in the air and saying welp they made the tournament and anything could happen just wasn’t our year gosh darn it keep up the good work Atkins

 

If you believe playoff wins are a major factor in the success of GM (and the team's season), then we'll agree to disagree. I think judging the performance of the GM on the team's win/loss record in a 3 or 5 game series is silly. Just like it would be stupid to say "Bichette chokes in the playoffs and isn't clutch" because he goes 3 for 12 in a wild card round (hypothetical).

[max silver]

I was talking more about current players on the roster signing contract extensions versus FA deals because usually FA are just going to go to the highest bidder.

 

Atlanta singed Acuna, Albies, Riley, Olsen, Murphy, Strider and Harris all to deals that look very team friendly. Its too bad AA did leave in 2016 because I think he would have done very well here if you had guys in the FO telling him who to acquire and who to sign just because he is so good at negotiating.

 

It would have been great for sure if AA chose to stay. Having the type of budget Shapiro was able to wrangle out of Rogers would have been tremendous, plus having another baseball mind above him may have ultimately been a good thing to avoid some of the more questionable deals that he convinced himself to go ahead with.

[max silver]

They also rushed to sign Kendrys Morales after the 2016 season for some odd reason to a 3-year-deal.

 

Tanner Roark signing was awful.

 

The Grichuk extension was odd.

 

Ryu was solid in the 2020 shortened season and was meh in 2021. Combined for 4.9 fWAR in his 4 seasons here so spending $20M per season on him was a lot.

 

Springer looked good in his first couple of years here, but the latter part of his deal looks worrisome.

 

Gausman signing has been fantastic to date. But again, huge FA deal.

 

Atkins has done a good job at signing guys to one-year deals like Semien, Belt, and KK.

 

Thankfully the bigger mistake signings such as Morales and Roark were of the shorter term variety and nothing that greatly hamstrung the organization financially for long term pain.

[max silver]

Perhaps AA's biggest strength as a GM was his ability in contract negotiations. Even during his time in Toronto he did fantastic signing Bautista and Edwin to team friendly deals. The Yunell Escobar contract was highway robbery at the time. Then in Atlanta he convinced all their young stars to those Agent firing worthy deals. Even the Matt Olsen deal was really good.

 

Not once has their been a contract that Atkins signed where you immediately thought "what a steal". The Gauseman contract has turned out great but it was likely the biggest contract he was offered at the time plus it was FA not an extension. The Grichuk contract and Berrios deal are the only 2 that really stick out to me where FA years were bought out? Grichuk's turned out badly and Berrios looks good.

 

The Edwin and Bautista deals were great timing on the part of AA to strike before either of those guys were able to fully establish themselves as premier sluggers who could command relative fortunes in free agency. Each of these guys was like found money to have them eventually emerge as legitimate middle of the order premier bats after relatively floundering for their respective careers up to that point. The only player I can think of that was maybe comparable that the current front office attained during their tenure was Teoscar. Signing him to the type of extension that they gave Grichuk would have been a tremendous value signing, but who knows if Atkins was gunshy after extending Grichuk too soon or they simply didn't view Teoscar as the type of player they wanted to keep long term.

[L54]

If you believe playoff wins are a major factor in the success of GM (and the team's season), then we'll agree to disagree. I think judging the performance of the GM on the team's win/loss record in a 3 or 5 game series is silly. Just like it would be stupid to say "Bichette chokes in the playoffs and isn't clutch" because he goes 3 for 12 in a wild card round (hypothetical).

 

You asked me a rhetorical question about AA being fired because they didn’t win the WS. As if one were to fire Atkins by the same logic you would have to fire Anthopolous too.

 

I replied that AA has had a little more success that allows him a longer leash. That’s where your win/loss argument comes from. Atlanta has a WS and are 24-21 since 2018. Sure the record isn’t great, but it’s like 40 more games played than the Jays so I think his job is a little more secure

[mphenhef]

It would have been great for sure if AA chose to stay. Having the type of budget Shapiro was able to wrangle out of Rogers would have been tremendous, plus having another baseball mind above him may have ultimately been a good thing to avoid some of the more questionable deals that he convinced himself to go ahead with.

 

Outside of the Dickey deal, which would you go back and undo if you had the chance?

[deanmike]

AA would have signed Vlad long term

 

If that's the case I'm glad we have Shatkins.

[Brownie19]

Outside of the Dickey deal, which would you go back and undo if you had the chance?

 

The Marlins deal obviously? The Tulo deal?

[Brownie19]

You asked me a rhetorical question about AA being fired because they didn’t win the WS. As if one were to fire Atkins by the same logic you would have to fire Anthopolous too.

 

I replied that AA has had a little more success that allows him a longer leash. That’s where your win/loss argument comes from. Atlanta has a WS and are 24-21 since 2018. Sure the record isn’t great, but it’s like 40 more games played than the Jays so I think his job is a little more secure

 

I was just using the Braves and AA as an example of how I don't hold the playoff success (or lack there of) against the GM. I don't think fans should look at AA and say he failed this year at all, nor should it tarnish his "record" as a GM. If they win 90-100 games for the next 4 years, making the playoffs each year, but never win another playoff game - I'd feel the same way. The 2023 AA constructed team was MUCH better than the 2021 team that won the WS. It's not even close.

 

Of course the longer your track record, the better.

 

Perhaps I should have used the Mike Elias and the O's instead of AA and the Braves. He has 0 playoff success on his resume. IMO, it's not Mike Elias's fault that the O's lost in the playoffs this year. Elias was just named Executive of the Year - and rightfully so. Mike Hazen doesn't deserve that award because the Dbacks went MUCH further than the O's in the playoffs. The playoffs are a crap shoot. You want a GM that gets your team to the dance as often as possible.

 

I'm perhaps a bit too fixated on this and am doing a poor job of "proving my point". We can probably move on eh?

[L54]

I was just using the Braves and AA as an example of how I don't hold the playoff success (or lack there of) against the GM. I don't think fans should look at AA and say he failed this year at all, nor should it tarnish his "record" as a GM. If they win 90-100 games for the next 4 years, making the playoffs each year, but never win another playoff game - I'd feel the same way. The 2023 AA constructed team was MUCH better than the 2021 team that won the WS. It's not even close.

 

Of course the longer your track record, the better.

 

Perhaps I should have used the Mike Elias and the O's instead of AA and the Braves. He has 0 playoff success on his resume. IMO, it's not Mike Elias's fault that the O's lost in the playoffs this year. Elias was just named Executive of the Year - and rightfully so. Mike Hazen doesn't deserve that award because the Dbacks went MUCH further than the O's in the playoffs. The playoffs are a crap shoot. You want a GM that gets your team to the dance as often as possible.

 

I'm perhaps a bit too fixated on this and am doing a poor job of "proving my point". We can probably move on eh?

 

Yuuuup

[Brownie19]

They also rushed to sign Kendrys Morales after the 2016 season for some odd reason to a 3-year-deal.

 

Tanner Roark signing was awful.

 

The Grichuk extension was odd.

 

Ryu was solid in the 2020 shortened season and was meh in 2021. Combined for 4.9 fWAR in his 4 seasons here so spending $20M per season on him was a lot.

 

Springer looked good in his first couple of years here, but the latter part of his deal looks worrisome.

 

Gausman signing has been fantastic to date. But again, huge FA deal.

 

Atkins has done a good job at signing guys to one-year deals like Semien, Belt, and KK.

 

To be honest, if Morales, Roark and the Grichuk extension are the worst signing you made in 8 years - that's not too bad. You also have to give him props for being able to attract and ultimately sign guys like Ryu, Springer and Gausman. Those were huge "gets" for the organization and they've kind of put Toronto back in a position where players want to play here (especially when you hear all the positive feedback from players re: training facilities).

 

I'm also not sure it's fair for some fans to rip Atkins for his inability to extend his young stars. We did extend Berrios and for f*** sakes, I'm certainly thankful he didn't extend Vlad after the 2021 season. If you think the Grichuk extension was bad - that Vlad extension may have been catastrophic.

[Laika]

Perhaps AA's biggest strength as a GM was his ability in contract negotiations. Even during his time in Toronto he did fantastic signing Bautista and Edwin to team friendly deals. The Yunell Escobar contract was highway robbery at the time. Then in Atlanta he convinced all their young stars to those Agent firing worthy deals. Even the Matt Olsen deal was really good.

 

Not once has their been a contract that Atkins signed where you immediately thought "what a steal". The Gauseman contract has turned out great but it was likely the biggest contract he was offered at the time plus it was FA not an extension. The Grichuk contract and Berrios deal are the only 2 that really stick out to me where FA years were bought out? Grichuk's turned out badly and Berrios looks good.

 

This is a f***ing dumb comparison for two reasons.

 

1. AA is on his own level when it comes to robbing players on extensions. Literally the best there is.

2. Atkins has been pretty f***ing good in free agency.

[Dick_Pole]

Alright, this narrative of "the Blue Jays made the playoffs and then just got unlucky over a few games" has to stop.

 

Why? Because they way they lost in the playoffs is the exact same way they lost in the regular season. With Atlanta or Baltimore you could say they got unlucky by facing hot teams or whatever. But the Jays in the last two years lost to two middling teams that immediately got trounced the next round. In 2022 they blew an 8-1 lead, indicative of the ridiculous struggles the team had all year of closing out games they should have won. In 2023, they were toyed with, absolutely chumped on offense. Particularly struggling with non-clutch hitting and stupid baserunning. What was the last game? Zero runs on 10 hits or something stupid like that? And that was the problem all year. If the Jays had lost 10-8 because Berrios or Gausman had blown up or something, THAT'S when you could chalk it up to bad luck.

[Laika]

the Blue Jays made the playoffs and then just got unlucky over a few games

[Laika]

Okay, saying they got "unlucky" is actually not accurate. They were likely going nowhere, they just went nowhere immediately.

 

They made the playoffs and then failed to get lucky. That is more accurate.

[Brownie19]

Alright, this narrative of "the Blue Jays made the playoffs and then just got unlucky over a few games" has to stop.

 

Why? Because they way they lost in the playoffs is the exact same way they lost in the regular season. With Atlanta or Baltimore you could say they got unlucky by facing hot teams or whatever. But the Jays in the last two years lost to two middling teams that immediately got trounced the next round. In 2022 they blew an 8-1 lead, indicative of the ridiculous struggles the team had all year of closing out games they should have won. In 2023, they were toyed with, absolutely chumped on offense. Particularly struggling with non-clutch hitting and stupid baserunning. What was the last game? Zero runs on 10 hits or something stupid like that? And that was the problem all year. If the Jays had lost 10-8 because Berrios or Gausman had blown up or something, THAT'S when you could chalk it up to bad luck.

 

C'mon man, the "clutch hitting" ******** disappeared in the 2nd half. I find it very hard to find sortable stats for RISP, but I did find this from Jays Journal:

 

The Jays actually ranked 6th in the AL and 12th overall in MLB with a respectable .260 batting average with RISP, as well as 9th overall in hits with RISP with 363.

 

I believe near midseason they were like 27th in MLB with RISP and everyone was freaking out and calling for coaches to be fired because their hitting philosophy was s*** (which I suggested was f***ing stupid). Either they changed that, or the stats just finally evened themselves out as the final results weren't all that bad, given the type of offensive team we had this year (8th in MLB in wRC+).

 

The RISP production went cold in the playoffs. Few teams (if any) have any way of controlling when the team gets hot or cold with RISP. I'm sure the RISP production went cold for the Braves, Dodgers, O's and TB too and was a major contributor to their early exits. To collect 10 hits and score 0 runs is incredibly unlucky. That should be obvious.

 

Did the Jays need to get lucky to go deep into the playoffs this year? Probably, given how f***ing horrible Vlad, Springer, Kirk, Chapman, Varsho, etc. hit this year. There are so many factors that are outside of the GM, coaches and even the players hands during SSS playoff rounds. That narrative is valid man.

[Frenchsoup]

No complaining about the past. What's done is done.

[Jimcanuck]

Said it before, will say it again.

 

Playoffs 50% luck, 50% team quality.