General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[saskjayfan]

Mattingly is moving to an offensive coordinator role and will be more involved in daily hitting. I'm sorry but there's just no way this guy can keep up with the Donnie Eckers of the world.

 

What do you really know about Don Mattingly and his hitting philosophies in terms of coaching? The only time he's been a hitting coach was with the Yankees and Dodgers more than a decade ago. Is the default assumption that someone who's old is no good?

[saskjayfan]

I think this is just polite lip service, but if this is a real consideration, there is a lot to be worried as a Jays fan. 1. A cheap marketing ploy to mask a mediocre offseason with the casuals is already in the works. 2. The idea that going into spring training that the Jays have room for someone who has been a black hole for 2 years on the roster.

 

I said this before, but Votto is the type of guy you pick up at the deadline, presumably for a bag of balls from whatever non-contending team he's playing on, only if you think he can help at that time and there is no other cheap nor possible option. I gave the Jays signing Dave Parker late in 1991 as an example of this. I think the veteran presence thing late in the season in limited quantities as a depth piece does have merit if it fills a hole created throughout the season due to injury or underperformance. Going into Spring Training with Votto penciled in the roster...is not good.

 

I have conflicting thoughts about this, because it's tough playing through an injury and playing coming back off injury. I honestly think Votto still could put up a season 15 to 20% above league avg with the bat. Worst case he's league avg with the bat. His work throughout his career is legendary. His worked tirelessly in the cage, but he also did so with purpose. Early in his career he was self absorbed and was entirely focused on making himself better. It's been well documented that he's shifted and is much more willing to work with young players.

 

Most players just fall in line and take in whatever is being preached to them. Votto isn't at a point in his career where he's that type of player. I can see him saying well that's f***ing stupid if he doesn't agree with something, but he will challenge hitting processes from the point as one of the most cerebral hitting minds of his generation. He could impart meaningful and useful information to both players and coaches. He can collaborate with coaches to improve the process that benefits all.

 

There's lots of ways to construct the roster this offseason. Votto isn't going to get paid a lot of money. He's a left handed bat. If the Jays go with some young kids, I can see a spot for Votto on the roster for a lot of things he doesn't do on the field as long as he's willing to understand his role and be comfortable with not getting 550 ABs

[jaysblue]

I have conflicting thoughts about this, because it's tough playing through an injury and playing coming back off injury. I honestly think Votto still could put up a season 15 to 20% above league avg with the bat. Worst case he's league avg with the bat. His work throughout his career is legendary. His worked tirelessly in the cage, but he also did so with purpose. Early in his career he was self absorbed and was entirely focused on making himself better. It's been well documented that he's shifted and is much more willing to work with young players.

 

Most players just fall in line and take in whatever is being preached to them. Votto isn't at a point in his career where he's that type of player. I can see him saying well that's f***ing stupid if he doesn't agree with something, but he will challenge hitting processes from the point as one of the most cerebral hitting minds of his generation. He could impart meaningful and useful information to both players and coaches. He can collaborate with coaches to improve the process that benefits all.

 

There's lots of ways to construct the roster this offseason. Votto isn't going to get paid a lot of money. He's a left handed bat. If the Jays go with some young kids, I can see a spot for Votto on the roster for a lot of things he doesn't do on the field as long as he's willing to understand his role and be comfortable with not getting 550 ABs

 

Very well said.

[Omar]

If Votto can put the kaibosh on the post game ice baths by Vladdy, well maybe there's a spot for him.

[hanton]

What do you really know about Don Mattingly and his hitting philosophies in terms of coaching? The only time he's been a hitting coach was with the Yankees and Dodgers more than a decade ago. Is the default assumption that someone who's old is no good?

 

No not necessarily "no good" but he is old school - "short to the ball", just do a google search, there's a recent article on Fantragphs (I beleive it's from 2021 - he tells you his philosphy).

 

Also this from 2018

"Why Marlins Manager Don Mattingly Doesn't Buy Into "Launch Angle" | The Dan Patrick Show "

 

There's also a piece on Chris O'Leary's site where he breaks down Mattingly's swing (not his philosphy), showing him trying to create big lunch angle. So maybe Mattingly just can't explain what he does naturally at the plate.

[deanmike]

 

This is an unserious organization.

 

Have at it, positivity trolls. I would love to hear the positive spin on this one.

[Jimcanuck]

Votto for hitting coach

[deanmike]

Votto for hitting coach

 

Too late, team already committed to keeping ******** Guillermo.

[MikeM3]

What do you really know about Don Mattingly and his hitting philosophies in terms of coaching? The only time he's been a hitting coach was with the Yankees and Dodgers more than a decade ago. Is the default assumption that someone who's old is no good?

 

I'm generally not one to think that but if you read up on what Ecker does, there's just no way Mattingly can do that. Then again that's probably Guillermos job.

 

But like Ecker looks at how his hitters biomechanics are matching up against the opponents pitch shapes and well.. you can just read an example https://blogs.fangraphs.com/texas-rangers-offensive-coordinator-donnie-ecker-talks-hitting/

 

And that's not even current day Ecker. So just the fact that Atkins puts any weight into Mattingly is concerning because there's just no way he's at the forefront of this stuff.

 

Ecker talks alot about optimal path and path forgiveness. I saw Garcia completely miss hit a ball oppo and it was a homerun. When Vlad mis hits a ball its a 99% out probability

[Laika]

signal vs. noise

 

it's possible that the hitting coach was not the problem. coaches are often scapegoats.

 

there is a lot of luck involved in RISP results.

 

coaching changes are a higher risk move than people think. there is a benefit to keeping groups of employees/staff/players together over the years.

 

many of the Jays 2023 hitting problems can be individualized and the fix is just on the player. All the coaches can do is identify the problem and give the player drills or tips to fix it. It's on the player to gain comfort in the changes and implement them. So if Guillermo Martinez is on record telling Vlad to stop swinging at low strikes, Chapman to get out in front more, Kirk to get out in front more, Varsho to not be so flyball obsessed, etc., and he working with them and offering proper instruction and drills, and the players still fail... it might not be a coaching issue.

 

they ARE making some minor coaching changes so it's not like the staff is all returning in identical functions

 

and last, a portion of the Jays 2023 offensive issues are just personnel related. FO made a conscious effort to prioritize defense.

 

(just supplying to other side of the coin as requested, don't tar and feather me bros)

[Omar]

signal vs. noise

 

it's possible that the hitting coach was not the problem. coaches are often scapegoats.

 

there is a lot of luck involved in RISP results.

 

coaching changes are a higher risk move than people think. there is a benefit to keeping groups of employees/staff/players together over the years.

 

many of the Jays 2023 hitting problems can be individualized and the fix is just on the player. All the coaches can do is identify the problem and give the player drills or tips to fix it. It's on the player to gain comfort in the changes and implement them. So if Guillermo Martinez is on record telling Vlad to stop swinging at low strikes, Chapman to get out in front more, Kirk to get out in front more, Varsho to not be so flyball obsessed, etc., and he working with them and offering proper instruction and drills, and the players still fail... it might not be a coaching issue.

 

they ARE making some minor coaching changes so it's not like the staff is all returning in identical functions

 

and last, a portion of the Jays 2023 offensive issues are just personnel related. FO made a conscious effort to prioritize defense.

 

(just supplying to other side of the coin as requested, don't tar and feather me bros)

 

All well and good but if the coach is preaching a hitting philosophy and the players are not buying into it, he should be gone because he's not reaching them.

 

If he is reaching them and they are listening, well he should also be gone because his hitting approach has been a failure.

 

If it was indeed just bad luck, well he should be gone because his impact was of no consequence.

[Laika]

All well and good but if the coach is preaching a hitting philosophy and the players are not buying into it, he should be gone because he's not reaching them.

 

If he is reaching them and they are listening, well he should also be gone because his hitting approach has been a failure.

 

If it was indeed just bad luck, well he should be gone because his impact was of no consequence.

 

zoom out.

 

Martinez has been the hitting coach since 2019.

 

2019 - 92 (18th)

2020 - 104 (13th)

2021 - 112 (2nd)

2022 - 118 (2nd)

2023 - 107 (8th)

 

If results are all that matters it's hard to let him go unless we are being very short sighted

[BTS]

and last, a portion of the Jays 2023 offensive issues are just personnel related. FO made a conscious effort to prioritize defense.

 

I think a lot of people are glossing over this.

 

2021 - 3rd in runs and 2nd in wRC+

2022 - 4th in runs and 1st in wRC+

2023 - 14th in runs and 7th in wRC+

 

I don't believe that the org developed a fatal philosophical flaw last offseason. I think three mostly unrelated things happened:

 

1) As you said, they priortized defense instead of offense. 1000 PA to Keiermaier and Merrifield. Another 600 to Varsho.

 

2) They got unlucky and underperformed their wRC+ when it came to converting hits into runs. This probably isn't sticky.

 

3) A few players underperformed expectations. I still think this is mostly just a Vlad thing. The 2023 offense simply isn't that good if Vlad isn't elite. If Vlad is elite, fans aren't really batting an eye at Springer declining at 34, or the fat catcher not producing, or Varsho getting less lucky on contact than he did in previous years.

[BatFlip]

I have conflicting thoughts about this, because it's tough playing through an injury and playing coming back off injury. I honestly think Votto still could put up a season 15 to 20% above league avg with the bat. Worst case he's league avg with the bat. His work throughout his career is legendary. His worked tirelessly in the cage, but he also did so with purpose. Early in his career he was self absorbed and was entirely focused on making himself better. It's been well documented that he's shifted and is much more willing to work with young players.

 

Most players just fall in line and take in whatever is being preached to them. Votto isn't at a point in his career where he's that type of player. I can see him saying well that's f***ing stupid if he doesn't agree with something, but he will challenge hitting processes from the point as one of the most cerebral hitting minds of his generation. He could impart meaningful and useful information to both players and coaches. He can collaborate with coaches to improve the process that benefits all.

 

There's lots of ways to construct the roster this offseason. Votto isn't going to get paid a lot of money. He's a left handed bat. If the Jays go with some young kids, I can see a spot for Votto on the roster for a lot of things he doesn't do on the field as long as he's willing to understand his role and be comfortable with not getting 550 ABs

 

In 2022 he was below league average with the bat, so not sure how the worse case is league average. This is a player on a steep decline from a legendary career. Reminds me somewhat of Jose Bautista in 2017 where a bunch of people were trying to convince themselves that father time hadn't cooked him at age 37. Joey is 40 years old.

 

If you're signing him, I would hope he's rarely off the bench and there is some stats nerd that's going to convince me he can be sheltered enough to come close to a league avg bat. To be honest, I'd rather give the ABs to guys like Spencer Horwitz.

[Laika]

I think a lot of people are glossing over this.

 

2021 - 3rd in runs and 2nd in wRC+

2022 - 4th in runs and 1st in wRC+

2023 - 14th in runs and 7th in wRC+

 

I don't believe that the org developed a fatal philosophical flaw last offseason. I think three mostly unrelated things happened:

 

1) As you said, they priortized defense instead of offense. 1000 PA to Keiermaier and Merrifield. Another 600 to Varsho.

 

2) They got unlucky and underperformed their wRC+ when it came to converting hits into runs. This probably isn't sticky.

 

3) A few players underperformed expectations. I still think this is mostly just a Vlad thing. The 2023 offense simply isn't that good if Vlad isn't elite. If Vlad is elite, fans aren't really batting an eye at Springer declining at 34, or the fat catcher not producing, or Varsho getting less lucky on contact than he did in previous years.

 

Yeah. Can't fire the hitting coach because Vlad is low IQ.

[Brownie19]

In 2022 he was below league average with the bat, so not sure how the worse case is league average. This is a player on a steep decline from a legendary career. Reminds me somewhat of Jose Bautista in 2017 where a bunch of people were trying to convince themselves that father time hadn't cooked him at age 37. Joey is 40 years old.

 

If you're signing him, I would hope he's rarely off the bench and there is some stats nerd that's going to convince me he can be sheltered enough to come close to a league avg bat. To be honest, I'd rather give the ABs to guys like Spencer Horwitz.

 

I suspect some will look to what Pujols did in his victory lap in St. Louis to justify the risk that he's a waste of space on the roster...

[deanmike]

Yeah. Can't fire the hitting coach because Vlad is low IQ.

 

Now this is a spin I can heavily get behind. Vlad should 100% be the most to blame for why the team underperformed last year.

[BTS]

Bring Votto home. I don't even care if it makes sense roster wise. Pujols' 2022 victory lap is like a top-10 baseball memory for me and I'm not even a Cards fan. I'll take a minute chance of Votto coming home and hitting nukes into October as Jays wrap up an ALE title.

[BatFlip]

I suspect some will look to what Pujols did in his victory lap in St. Louis to justify the risk that he's a waste of space on the roster...

 

Yup, it is baseball and it's definitely possible... I just wouldn't bet on it and I'd prefer to see if Spencer Horwitz (who's turning 26 next week) can be a .800 ops controllable young bat for the Jays. I think there are better odds of Spencer doing that than Joey Votto going +15 - 20% over league average, not to mention it is way, way more valuable for the team.

 

All that said, I'd still be a bit of a homer if the Jays sign Joey Votto. I've been a fan for a long time and it would be wild to see him in a Jays jersey.

[Brownie19]

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2758732/report-blue-jays-meet-with-candelarios-representatives

[BTS]

https://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/2758732/report-blue-jays-meet-with-candelarios-representatives

 

This seems like a bad idea

[Brownie19]

Yup, it is baseball and it's definitely possible... I just wouldn't bet on it and I'd prefer to see if Spencer Horwitz (who's turning 26 next week) can be a .800 ops controllable young bat for the Jays. I think there are better odds of Spencer doing that than Joey Votto going +15 - 20% over league average, not to mention it is way, way more valuable for the team.

 

All that said, I'd still be a bit of a homer if the Jays sign Joey Votto. I've been a fan for a long time and it would be wild to see him in a Jays jersey.

 

That's exactly how I'd feel. Also - if I'm going to bet on any 40 year old rebounding to provide positive value in the upcoming season - I'm putting my bet on Joey Votto and it's not remotely close. He's such a study of the game and has found ways to reinvent himself several times throughout his career.

[Jays24]

Wow... people are actually defending brining back the hitting coach. Pretty much everyone across the board performed well below their expectations and we're supposed to say "ah shucks, try again".

 

Jays have one of few highest payrolls in the AL. Running back with all the major players back intact is borderline insanity.

[Krylian]

I don't recall ever hearing about Votto showing any interest in playing for the Jays. Doesn't mean he doesn't, just that I never got the impression that he had any interest.

[Terminator]

I don't recall ever hearing about Votto showing any interest in playing for the Jays. Doesn't mean he doesn't, just that I never got the impression that he had any interest.

 

Yeah I always got the impression that it was the opposite. He was always tired of the connection and would seem to make comments that he wasn't really interested.

 

But things have changed. He's 40 years old and coming off back to back mediocre years. We are a contender too.

[Jays24]

I don't recall ever hearing about Votto showing any interest in playing for the Jays. Doesn't mean he doesn't, just that I never got the impression that he had any interest.

 

There is 0 reason to go after him. He didn't give 2 shits about playing for the Jays when he was good... we don't need him when he'll probably be a flat out scrub next year. Dudes gotta be like the oldest hitter in baseball going into next year lol.

[xposbrad]

I don't recall ever hearing about Votto showing any interest in playing for the Jays. Doesn't mean he doesn't, just that I never got the impression that he had any interest.

 

He'll probably have interest in whoever wants to give him a shot. He's probably only getting ST invites at this point.

[L54]

Just say no to Joey Votto

[BTS]

You guys need to fluff up your maple boners a bit. There's room on the team for someone like Votto to play 1B a couple times a week and maybe be the strong side of a DH platoon. If he struggles, DH bats are basically free at the deadline.

[Terminator]

We don't really need him unless we move Horwitz. If we move Horwitz, which I think is possible, he would be a possible fit. But so would Belt and others.

 

Votto could have some more in the tank. He was league average last year after coming off a major injury and no spring training.

 

I'm all for it but Horwitz needs to be traded to make it work.