General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[wilko]

He can replace Belt

 

What about Babe?

[Terminator]

What about Babe?

 

Mainstay at 2B with Whit platooning in the OF. Or put Schneider at DH and Biggio plays some 2B. Plenty of ABs to go around with Belt and Jansen out.

[glory]

What about Babe?

 

Babe plays everyday, Biggio plays most of the time, and Varsho/Merrifield platoon in LF. That’s probably the best alignment at the moment with what’s available.

[BigCecil]

Somewhere Alex Verdugo is laughing right now.

 

A few people in and around the game are grimacing and chuckling about Manoah.

 

His attitude only works if he is shoving (and that baseballs...not Mary Brown's deep fried chicken).

 

How about Antony Recker who had the audacity to imply that he would be wise to consider being in a little better shape, back in Feb.

[Jonn]

He can replace Belt

 

Nobody is replacing Brandon Belt's BDE.

[Stangstag]

Mainstay at 2B with Whit platooning in the OF. Or put Schneider at DH and Biggio plays some 2B. Plenty of ABs to go around with Belt and Jansen out.

 

Yeah I see it as Whit/Varsho platoon in LF, Biggio/Espinal platoon at 2B, Schneider DH/2B. Bo and Chapman will need the occasional day off so you can start Biggio or Espy there some days.

[THANOS]

A few people in and around the game are grimacing and chuckling about Manoah.

 

His attitude only works if he is shoving (and that baseballs...not Mary Brown's deep fried chicken).

 

How about Antony Recker who had the audacity to imply that he would be wise to consider being in a little better shape, back in Feb.

 

No one feels more vindicated, after Manoah tried to bury his career following that comment. And Recker wasn't even a dick about it, just pointed out he could be even better, and highlighted one of the few areas of improvement, at the time.

[Masterbather]

Game time: Since the turn of the century, name the five best Blue Jays to have been drafted, developed and played any sort of significant role for the Blue Jays.

 

Now, how many teams can you think of with a more pathetic list?

[John_Havok]

Game time: Since the turn of the century, name the five best Blue Jays to have been drafted, developed and played any sort of significant role for the Blue Jays.

 

Now, how many teams can you think of with a more pathetic list?

 

Have to include international signings, not just drafts.

[Masterbather]

Have to include international signings, not just drafts.

 

Fine by me.

[Terminator]

Game time: Since the turn of the century, name the five best Blue Jays to have been drafted, developed and played any sort of significant role for the Blue Jays.

 

Now, how many teams can you think of with a more pathetic list?

 

We had some really lean years from 2000 until Stroman was picked in 2012.

 

So I'd say Stroman is on the list and the rest are probably guys currently on the team. Bo, Vlad Jr. and Kirk (despite the down years from the latter). Not sure who would be #5.

 

I'm not going through the rest of the teams but I bet you we would rank a lot higher than you think.

[Masterbather]

We had some really lean years from 2000 until Stroman was picked in 2012.

 

So I'd say Stroman is on the list and the rest are probably guys currently on the team. Bo, Vlad Jr. and Kirk (despite the down years from the latter). Not sure who would be #5.

 

I'm not going through the rest of the teams but I bet you we would rank a lot higher than you think.

 

How? Dude that's already a terrible list. Terrible! If you go through most teams I guarantee you you could at least think of three or four guys that are better. That's extremely futile for 20 f***ing years.

[Laika]

Hill, Lind, Marcum, Cecil, Sanchez, Stroman, Bichette, Manoah, Osuna, Guerrero, Biggio, Jansen, Pillar, Kirk, Romero, Janssen.

 

I don't think you can count Romano since he left the org. But debatable.

[jaysblue]

Don't forget some Jays that got traded like Synderagaard, Musgrove etc.

[Masterbather]

Hill, Lind, Marcum, Cecil, Sanchez, Stroman, Bichette, Manoah, Osuna, Guerrero, Biggio, Jansen, Pillar, Kirk, Romero, Janssen.

 

I don't think you can count Romano since he left the org. But debatable.

 

Does that list impress you? That's a pretty depressing list to me. Some guys in their had two or three really good seasons, certainly no superstars in there. Stroman is the best, but we stupidly did not hang on to him.

 

No team is going to draft nothing but zero value players over 20 years but that's a pretty depressing list if that's the best we've done. Nobody should look at that list and be proud.

[Masterbather]

Don't forget some Jays that got traded like Synderagaard, Musgrove etc.

 

One of my qualifiers was at the contributed for us at the Major League level because that is also part of proving that we developed them properly but go ahead and take those two because the names we've seen so far are mostly pretty pathetic.

[Laika]

Does that list impress you? That's a pretty depressing list to me. Some guys in their had two or three really good seasons, certainly no superstars in there. Stroman is the best, but we stupidly did not hang on to him.

 

No team is going to draft nothing but zero value players over 20 years but that's a pretty depressing list if that's the best we've done. Nobody should look at that list and be proud.

 

Bichette is pretty close to a sstar

 

I dunno. The organization was utterly incompetent until like 2014 and then it becomes aggressively focused on a short term window before a retooling period. It's not surprising to me that it wasn't a star factory. The Toronto Blue Jays have arguably only been a fully functional organization for like the last 8 years or so.

[Masterbather]

Bichette is pretty close to a sstar

 

I dunno. The organization was utterly incompetent until like 2014 and then it becomes aggressively focused on a short term window before a retooling period. It's not surprising to me that it wasn't a star factory. The Toronto Blue Jays have arguably only been a fully functional organization for like the last 8 years or so.

 

We haven't had a Halladay or Delgado since Halladay and Delgado. This organization gets let off way too easy by its fans and media, way too easy. That level of futility, I maintain, is unmatched. Maybe you'll find some team in the national league that's worse but good god it has been absolutely terrible.

 

Our entire current starting rotation is made up of other teams' players that we bought free agent years from. The one fat ass that belongs to us is a pain in the ass and not as good as he thinks he is.

 

The depressing part is if we sneak into the playoffs because of other teams failures around us, people will let things slide again. I think an epic failure down the stretch might be a nice organizational wake up call. The bar here is so low, you let players walk all over management without consequence you can't argue that. We have fat players, we have players that constantly make mistakes and don't suffer consequences. Been this way for years. And it just slides and slides and slides. You can feel the entitlement.

[Terminator]

How? Dude that's already a terrible list. Terrible! If you go through most teams I guarantee you you could at least think of three or four guys that are better. That's extremely futile for 20 f***ing years.

 

Well like I said, 2000-2012 was ROUGH. But I think the point of your post is to indict the current regime but those years aren't their fault. Also, I think people's viewpoints on this get warped because there really just isn't as much homegrown talent out there as people think. Teams make a ton of trades, FA signings, dumpster diving, etc. to build their rosters.

 

I didn't want to get into this too much but let's look at a couple other teams.

 

Yankees

Judge was picked in 2013. But who else? Geezers like Gardner who was a 3rd round pick in 2008 and Cano who signed in 2001? Ok, we are using your arbitrary "turn of the century" language so they count. Who else? Gary Sanchez? Luis Severino? They suck.

 

Rays

Everyone's draft and development darlings. Evan Longoria, Carl Crawford, Kevin Kiermaier, David Price and Chris Archer are probably their top 5. That's pretty darn good but it's not THAT much better than ours and you think we are one of the worst.

 

Cubs

Let's do a good but not great franchise over the past 23 years. They did have some good bats. Kris Bryant they got with the #2 pick in 2013. Javier Baez with the #9 pick in 2011. Wilson Contreras in 2009. I'm not even sure who their best pitcher is. Maybe Mark Prior who was drafted in 2001 and had a few good years before his arm exploded. Jeff Smardsija had about 7 WAR from 2006. So you probably have to use more bats to fill out the Top 5. Probably Ian Happ in 2015 or Geavonay Soto in 2001? Seem pretty comparable to us.

 

Angels

Let's do a bad team. The Angels are supposedly the worst at developing talent. And they are but not if you go back to 2000. Jered Weaver in 2001, Howie Kendrick around then, Mike Trout in 2009, a few others that are decent and basically nothing since Trout.

 

A's

They are bad at this game but make it worse because their best guys they traded for nothing. Donaldson and Chapman to us and Olson to the Braves. Best pitchers are probably Sonny Gray and Joe Blanton.

 

It's hard to know who was drafted and developed at a glance so I could be missing someone from the above teams but you get the idea.

[bones10]

The lineup is f***ing ugly with no belt and Jansen

[Stangstag]

The lineup is f***ing ugly with no belt and Jansen

 

Sitting Kirk doesn’t help either.

 

Idk we’re just missing any thump right now. Springer and Bo should provide some of that but both have been quiet against Texas. Vlad looks completely lost. Leaves our only power hitters as… Schneider and Varsho?

 

Really hoping Chapman looks good when he comes back, we could desperately use some of that early season version.

 

Bottom line, Vlad and Bo need to be hitting better

[Stangstag]

Blue Jays postseason probabilities based upon Texas series (other games simulated):

TEX sweeps: 37%

TEX wins 3-1: 59%

Split: 80%

TOR wins 3-1: 97%

TOR sweeps: 99.3%

 

Not liking the odds so much right now…

 

Can we just salvage a split please?? Like f***ing hell man, just beat 1 good team when it matters for once.

[Captain_Obvious]

Not liking the odds so much right now…

 

Can we just salvage a split please?? Like f***ing hell man, just beat 1 good team when it matters for once.

 

The team will perform better if Vlad is benched. He is just useless.

[Terminator]

The team will perform better if Vlad is benched. He is just useless.

 

Corey Seager is dominating. 5-9, BB, 3 2Bs, 2 2-out RBI, 3 runs.

 

Vlad is 0-8 with 4 Ks.

[Masterbather]

Well like I said, 2000-2012 was ROUGH. But I think the point of your post is to indict the current regime but those years aren't their fault. Also, I think people's viewpoints on this get warped because there really just isn't as much homegrown talent out there as people think. Teams make a ton of trades, FA signings, dumpster diving, etc. to build their rosters.

 

I didn't want to get into this too much but let's look at a couple other teams.

 

Yankees

Judge was picked in 2013. But who else? Geezers like Gardner who was a 3rd round pick in 2008 and Cano who signed in 2001? Ok, we are using your arbitrary "turn of the century" language so they count. Who else? Gary Sanchez? Luis Severino? They suck.

 

Rays

Everyone's draft and development darlings. Evan Longoria, Carl Crawford, Kevin Kiermaier, David Price and Chris Archer are probably their top 5. That's pretty darn good but it's not THAT much better than ours and you think we are one of the worst.

 

Cubs

Let's do a good but not great franchise over the past 23 years. They did have some good bats. Kris Bryant they got with the #2 pick in 2013. Javier Baez with the #9 pick in 2011. Wilson Contreras in 2009. I'm not even sure who their best pitcher is. Maybe Mark Prior who was drafted in 2001 and had a few good years before his arm exploded. Jeff Smardsija had about 7 WAR from 2006. So you probably have to use more bats to fill out the Top 5. Probably Ian Happ in 2015 or Geavonay Soto in 2001? Seem pretty comparable to us.

 

Angels

Let's do a bad team. The Angels are supposedly the worst at developing talent. And they are but not if you go back to 2000. Jered Weaver in 2001, Howie Kendrick around then, Mike Trout in 2009, a few others that are decent and basically nothing since Trout.

 

A's

They are bad at this game but make it worse because their best guys they traded for nothing. Donaldson and Chapman to us and Olson to the Braves. Best pitchers are probably Sonny Gray and Joe Blanton.

 

It's hard to know who was drafted and developed at a glance so I could be missing someone from the above teams but you get the idea.

 

Yankees: Judge is a pretty big f***ing one, we haven't drafted a player like that in over 30 years. He beats all of them combined. You named another couple of other good ones that were better than anything we drafted already. You can throw in some lesser guys like El Duque and Tanaka as signings, Betances for a blazing while, Montgomery is a pretty good recent one too. Heck, Chad Green has done about as much as Osuna. They have us beat. I wouldn't be complaining if we had that list. If you want to go back to the 1990s you're welcome to but that's just going to make my argument stronger.

 

Rays: The combination of guys your named are significantly better than the crap we've had over the same period of time already but to add to that: McClanahan, Cobb, Snell, even Brandon Lowe just off the top of my head. There were probably some other guys that gave them two or three solid years like Jennings which is about as much as you can say for the Jays that were named. No competition between the Rays and the Jays. They aren't just slightly better.

 

Angels: Yeah pretty terrible but the three guys you did name trounce our guys, including one of the greatest players to ever live. Kole Calhoun had three or four good years for them. Aybar as a signing was was pretty good, again that's pretty comparable to what we've managed just with those two lousy names. They suck, but we're still worse.

 

Cubs: Kyle Schwarber, maybe Kyle Hendricks... Yeah, Cubs are pretty rough, on the whole they were probably still better but they do suck.

 

A's: yeah they've let go of some outstanding talent, but you still have to give them credit for the drafting and development and they did get something out of those players before trading them so those are all a credit to them. Those are some big names you put out there already. Rich harden had some big years before it fell apart for him. Huston Street, Swisher, Sean Murphy. I don't know there may be more but already, when added to the guys you mentioned, that's a lot of f***ing good names. Naw man, they've dominated us over this period. And if I did extend it until the '90s then you would get the great pitching they had in the late '90s.

 

I still maintain that we are one of the worst if not the absolute worst in the league. Not a single true superstar that played for us since Halladay and Delgado. A couple of all star seasons here and there from some others, but we f***ing suck dude.

[Olerud363]

I still maintain that we are one of the worst if not the absolute worst in the league. Not a single true superstar that played for us since Halladay and Delgado. A couple of all star seasons here and there from some others, but we f***ing suck dude.

 

How different would this analysis be if you did it last year this time, with Vlad, Bo, Kirk, Manoah looking good. Add in Varsho I guess.

 

I think that combo has gone 16, 20, and now 2 WAR. Holy s*** what an implosion. Not that Bo is really the problem he's just down a bit, but a group of young players that provided 20 WAR is now at 2.

 

2023 has been the year of hell. Not just choking in every big game, but a core group that was expected to be all stars and perhaps super stars are nothing for a year, and long term it completely changes the outlook of the franchise. As a group they will be better next year, but their trend is gone.

 

Regression means 20, 2, the next number is probably 10 (weight the most recent a bit more), but Jays have essentially lost their core and dimmed their future so much this year.

[THANOS]

Corey Seager is dominating. 5-9, BB, 3 2Bs, 2 2-out RBI, 3 runs.

 

Vlad is 0-8 with 4 Ks.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if our "leader" drains the team with each terrible AB he provides.

 

It's worth a try.

[THANOS]

Try this line-up:

 

1. DH Springer

2. 3B Biggio

3. SS Bichette

4. 2B Schneider

5. 1B Horwitz

6. C Kirk

7. RF Lukes

8. LF Merrifield

9. CF Kiermaier

 

I bet this line-up does far better than anyone thinks just because it's filled with guys who guys great ABs.

[Olerud363]

Bichette is pretty close to a sstar

 

I dunno. The organization was utterly incompetent until like 2014 and then it becomes aggressively focused on a short term window before a retooling period. It's not surprising to me that it wasn't a star factory. The Toronto Blue Jays have arguably only been a fully functional organization for like the last 8 years or so.

 

The 2006 to 2010 teams were just as talented as either the 2013-2017 iteration or the 2020-2023 but had bad luck

 

1. 2006 team was great hitting wise but didn't score as many runs as they should have, and pitching was bad.

2. Somehow by 2008 with mostly the same characters they were the best pitching team in baseball but no longer scoring runs. Perhaps similar to this team in a way (improved defense but worse hitting).

3. Their pythag in 2008 was 93 wins, but they won 86.

4. There was no second wild card, let along a 3rd.

5. The Yankees and Red Sox were serious power house organizations and in 2008 TBR became TBR.

6. They traded Halladay for what turned out to be very little in 2009, but in 2010 the offense rebounded, and with Halladay they could have won that year (In one sense no one could have predicted Bautista becoming Bautista, but Adam Lind and Aaron Hill collapsed in 2010, so overall perhaps AA (who just took over) should have tried more in 2010)

7. They replaced John Gibbons with a horrible manager who was universally hated in the clubhouse and led to a toxic 2009.

 

2006-2010 was a mostly nice team in a lot of ways, with some bad luck, crazy good competition, and a few terrible choices, no different than the last 4 years.

[Olerud363]

The 2006 to 2010 teams were just as talented as either the 2013-2017 iteration or the 2020-2023 but had bad luck

 

1. 2006 team was great hitting wise but didn't score as many runs as they should have, and pitching was bad.

2. Somehow by 2008 with mostly the same characters they were the best pitching team in baseball but no longer scoring runs. Perhaps similar to this team in a way (improved defense but worse hitting).

3. Their pythag in 2008 was 93 wins, but they won 86.

4. There was no second wild card, let along a 3rd.

5. The Yankees and Red Sox were serious power house organizations and in 2008 TBR became TBR.

6. They traded Halladay for what turned out to be very little in 2009, but in 2010 the offense rebounded, and with Halladay they could have won that year (In one sense no one could have predicted Bautista becoming Bautista, but Adam Lind and Aaron Hill collapsed in 2010, so overall perhaps AA (who just took over) should have tried more in 2010)

7. They replaced John Gibbons with a horrible manager who was universally hated in the clubhouse and led to a toxic 2009.

 

2006-2010 was a mostly nice team in a lot of ways, with some bad luck, crazy good competition, and a few terrible choices, no different than the last 4 years.

 

 

Thinking of 2006-2010 I'm reminded how Vernon Wells, Alex Rios, Aaron Hill, and Adam Lind would routinely have good seasons of 5 WAR or so then follow with a 0 WAR the next year. Like hit .300 with 30 homers, than .240 with 14 homers. THEY ALL f***ING DID IT.

 

The modern equivalent is Vladimir Guerrero Jr. going from .310 with 48 homers to .260 with 20...

 

f*** THIS ORGANIZATION and their inability to have a star perform consistently year to year. Buy a f***ing Jersey in August, by the next August the guy has collapsed to nothing.

 

f*** YOU SHAPIRO and those who came before you.. all the fans want (well in addition to winning) is home grown stars to cheer for and watch develop, not watch collapse to 0.

 

f*** THIS ORGANIZATION. IT IS NO DIFFERENT THAN IT WAS for the last 30 years.

 

THE ONLY f***ING DIFFERENCE IS MORE PLAYOFF SPOTS. The last time it was competent was 1993. Since then the same f***ing s*** over and over and over.

 

The 1997-2001 iteration was also decent and would look way better with a little luck and a little more wild cards and a little less Boston and NY being dynamite.

 

Shapiro era is no difference than Gord Ash, Ricciardi, The Beast and AA... all the same s***, year after year.

 

SINCE 1993 there was never been a year where the Jays were solid wire to wire. Never been a fun non-stressful year. Even 2015 they were s*** to 100 games then a miracle run.