Poll: Which catcher would you move in the off-season?

[Terminator]

As will many other players. Thanks for not including Jansen.

 

It's a foregone conclusion so it didn't need to be mentioned.

[Jonn]

Jansen and Moreno.

 

Trade Bowling Ball.

[Krylian]

As will many other players. Thanks for not including Jansen.

 

Yes, but I'm specifically predicting those players. Your statement should've read, 'Not all injuries can be predicted'.

[Krylian]

Trade the guy that the other team will overvalue the most

[raBBit]

What is the key in the return for Jays assuming they move a catcher? Is relief help the goal? Are prospects okay?

 

I think Jansen is the guy that ultimately is moved. He has got great ability and has been so productive when he's on the field but just seems to be more injury risk than with Moreno/Kirk.

 

I know the White Sox like Jansen a ton. They don't love Grandal's health and don't think he works well with pitchers. He can actually fit the Jays pretty well provided they swap bad contracts on Ryu. At least a Grandal addition could insulate against a Kirk/Moreno injury, keep Moreno positionally flexible and potentially be a big add at DH/1B with the lack of lefty presence in the middle of the lineup. Grandal was absolutely incredible down the stretch in the second half of 2021. The success wasn't that long ago despite a brutal 2022. Secondarily Biggio fits the White Sox really well as a complementary piece.

 

However, outside of relief help, not sure the White Sox have much to offer in terms of players that can contribute at the MLB level immediately. Hendriks would be a great fit with the Jays if they're hesitant on Romero after his season ending. Hendriks is an elite closing option. Otherwise, Graveman is a good vet option but obviously carries less value than Jansen. Aaron Bummer has been an outstanding lefty set-up when healthy but has had health issues in recent seasons. That said, his contract has the potential to have tremendous surplus value with limited downside if his arm falls apart (2 reasonable team options).

 

The teams could swap bad contracts on Ryu and Grandal. The Jays could use Jansen to bolster the pen. Unless the White Sox are willing to part with Hendriks (they're hesitant), the issue to me is whether the Jays are fine with taking back prospects to even out the value. White Sox could add most likely AAAA guys that could possibly be decent players (3B Jake Burger, 1B/DH Gavin Sheets) but these guys are probably better suited with rebuilding squads and probably don't move the needle too much.

[John_Havok]

Left handed hitting OF would be the preferred target.

[Laika]

What is the key in the return for Jays assuming they move a catcher? Is relief help the goal? Are prospects okay?

 

I think Jansen is the guy that ultimately is moved. He has got great ability and has been so productive when he's on the field but just seems to be more injury risk than with Moreno/Kirk.

 

I know the White Sox like Jansen a ton. They don't love Grandal's health and don't think he works well with pitchers. He can actually fit the Jays pretty well provided they swap bad contracts on Ryu. At least a Grandal addition could insulate against a Kirk/Moreno injury, keep Moreno positionally flexible and potentially be a big add at DH/1B with the lack of lefty presence in the middle of the lineup. Grandal was absolutely incredible down the stretch in the second half of 2021. The success wasn't that long ago despite a brutal 2022. Secondarily Biggio fits the White Sox really well as a complementary piece.

 

However, outside of relief help, not sure the White Sox have much to offer in terms of players that can contribute at the MLB level immediately. Hendriks would be a great fit with the Jays if they're hesitant on Romero after his season ending. Hendriks is an elite closing option. Otherwise, Graveman is a good vet option but obviously carries less value than Jansen. Aaron Bummer has been an outstanding lefty set-up when healthy but has had health issues in recent seasons. That said, his contract has the potential to have tremendous surplus value with limited downside if his arm falls apart (2 reasonable team options).

 

The teams could swap bad contracts on Ryu and Grandal. The Jays could use Jansen to bolster the pen. Unless the White Sox are willing to part with Hendriks (they're hesitant), the issue to me is whether the Jays are fine with taking back prospects to even out the value. White Sox could add most likely AAAA guys that could possibly be decent players (3B Jake Burger, 1B/DH Gavin Sheets) but these guys are probably better suited with rebuilding squads and probably don't move the needle too much.

 

The issue here is that while swapping Grandal for Ryu makes sense for baseball reasons, Ryu's contract is likely insured. So while Toronto's payroll on paper / luxury tax hit would not rise much in the swap, their actual effective payroll would jump. It may be the case that a bad contract swap like that actually sees Rogers paying an additional $10M or so of real money. Depending on how the insurance works.

 

I wonder if the White Sox would talk Crochet.

 

I do kind of like the premise. I like Grandal's chances of being useful on a dead cat bounce in 2023.

 

But yeah, the White Sox don't have a lot of trade juice.

[Omar]

Have to bear in mind that insurance claims for players are filed after the contract is over. Whatever dollars the Jays recoup from the Ryu contract it will be after the 2023 season.

[raBBit]

The issue here is that while swapping Grandal for Ryu makes sense for baseball reasons, Ryu's contract is likely insured. So while Toronto's payroll on paper / luxury tax hit would not rise much in the swap, their actual effective payroll would jump. It may be the case that a bad contract swap like that actually sees Rogers paying an additional $10M or so of real money. Depending on how the insurance works.

 

I wonder if the White Sox would talk Crochet.

 

I do kind of like the premise. I like Grandal's chances of being useful on a dead cat bounce in 2023.

 

But yeah, the White Sox don't have a lot of trade juice.

 

I don't believe whether a player's contract is insured has any impact on luxury tax calc. Perhaps there was a change in March with the CBA stuff but I don't know that insurance payouts or anticipated insurance payouts are a deduction to the luxury tax number for payroll. I am not sure how a potential trade would affect the insurance policy as I am sure the details of the insurance policy are not available.

 

I think the White Sox would talk Crochet (and it would be smart to buy low on him provided health issues are behind him) but he's going to miss the beginning of the season so it's a complication for sure.

[raBBit]

Have to bear in mind that insurance claims for players are filed after the contract is over. Whatever dollars the Jays recoup from the Ryu contract it will be after the 2023 season.

 

Is the thinking the right to a claim is nullified if the player doesn't play out the contract with the insuring team?

[Stangstag]

Left handed hitting OF would be the preferred target.

 

This. An MLB-ready lefty OF or close to ready OF prospect would be acceptable IMO. Need outfielders this season and beyond

[Laika]

Is the thinking the right to a claim is nullified if the player doesn't play out the contract with the insuring team?

 

It just means when Toronto submits their claim, they will only be able to claim like $10M less if they trade Ryu right now.

[Omar]

Is the thinking the right to a claim is nullified if the player doesn't play out the contract with the insuring team?

 

Yeah I think so. Assessment will be based on actual loss of time over the 182 days of eligible season play. I’m not 100% on this though.

[Terminator]

What is the key in the return for Jays assuming they move a catcher? Is relief help the goal? Are prospects okay?

 

I think Jansen is the guy that ultimately is moved. He has got great ability and has been so productive when he's on the field but just seems to be more injury risk than with Moreno/Kirk.

 

I know the White Sox like Jansen a ton. They don't love Grandal's health and don't think he works well with pitchers. He can actually fit the Jays pretty well provided they swap bad contracts on Ryu. At least a Grandal addition could insulate against a Kirk/Moreno injury, keep Moreno positionally flexible and potentially be a big add at DH/1B with the lack of lefty presence in the middle of the lineup. Grandal was absolutely incredible down the stretch in the second half of 2021. The success wasn't that long ago despite a brutal 2022. Secondarily Biggio fits the White Sox really well as a complementary piece.

 

However, outside of relief help, not sure the White Sox have much to offer in terms of players that can contribute at the MLB level immediately. Hendriks would be a great fit with the Jays if they're hesitant on Romero after his season ending. Hendriks is an elite closing option. Otherwise, Graveman is a good vet option but obviously carries less value than Jansen. Aaron Bummer has been an outstanding lefty set-up when healthy but has had health issues in recent seasons. That said, his contract has the potential to have tremendous surplus value with limited downside if his arm falls apart (2 reasonable team options).

 

The teams could swap bad contracts on Ryu and Grandal. The Jays could use Jansen to bolster the pen. Unless the White Sox are willing to part with Hendriks (they're hesitant), the issue to me is whether the Jays are fine with taking back prospects to even out the value. White Sox could add most likely AAAA guys that could possibly be decent players (3B Jake Burger, 1B/DH Gavin Sheets) but these guys are probably better suited with rebuilding squads and probably don't move the needle too much.

 

Hendricks would be awesome. He's the cherry on top of the bullpen that would turn it from good to elite. I tried to see if there was something else we might be interested in. Couldn't talk myself into Gavin Sheets but I did try.

 

That said, while it seems like Jansen is worth more than Hendricks, how much more is he actually worth? Relievers get paid bonkers numbers right now. Kenley Jansen is running on fumes and he got 2 years, 32 mil. Hendricks has 1 year 14.3 mil and then a club option for 15 mil.

 

Since Hendricks is on the books for a lot more money than Danny Jansen, I almost think if the White Sox kicked in some cash that might be enough to close the gap between the two.

[glory]

If Hendriks is traded then his 2024 option becomes guaranteed so he’d effectively be a 2/29 investment if he were traded here. Probably worth it in this market but ideally the Jays would be able to get a LH outfielder out of the deal as well, and I just don’t see a fit there unless the deal can be expanded to include someone like Colas (Jays would have to add more).

[jaysblue]

Hendricks would be awesome. He's the cherry on top of the bullpen that would turn it from good to elite. I tried to see if there was something else we might be interested in. Couldn't talk myself into Gavin Sheets but I did try.

 

That said, while it seems like Jansen is worth more than Hendricks, how much more is he actually worth? Relievers get paid bonkers numbers right now. Kenley Jansen is running on fumes and he got 2 years, 32 mil. Hendricks has 1 year 14.3 mil and then a club option for 15 mil.

 

Since Hendricks is on the books for a lot more money than Danny Jansen, I almost think if the White Sox kicked in some cash that might be enough to close the gap between the two.

 

Hendricks would definitely take this bullpen from good to elite. I would definitely be open to moving Jansen for him especially if the White Sox kicked in some extra cash.

 

Like Glory said, his 2024 option becomes guaranteed so it's like having Hendriks on a 2/$29M contract which in today's market is very good. Nothing long term which is nice and gives the Jays one of the best elite BP arms in the games over the next two seasons, when they're trying to contend for a World Series.

[L54]

Cannot wait for Danny Jansen to get traded this offseason. All the Kirk haters on this board can kiss my ass.

 

Bump

[wilko]

Bump

 

lol

[Jimcanuck]

"Sheriff" takes a massive L

[Terminator]

Bump

 

I voted for Moreno and you voted for Kirk and somehow you think this poll is a win for you.

 

I knew they wouldnt trade Kirk. And I’m fine with keeping Jansen and his glass body with Varsho also being a capable Catcher. Smart move by Atkins.

[Terminator]

I hereby formally request that the mods release the vote tally.

[Jimcanuck]

I hereby formally request that the mods release the vote tally.

 

Requesting a poll on this question.

[Terminator]

Requesting a poll on this question.

 

^scared to show who he voted for lol

[TheHurl]

Requesting a poll on this question.

 

it was set up so that the results couldn't be seen. I just tried.

[Captain Adama]

I hereby formally request that the mods release the vote tally.

 

I second this

[wilko]

it was set up so that the results couldn't be seen. I just tried.

 

plz go into the code and find the results.

[Terminator]

 

Ok Jimbo and Loser54, your turn.

[Stangstag]

 

Ok Jimbo and Loser54, your turn.

 

Somebody was wrong about Jansen…

 

Big L for you

[Jimcanuck]

Ok Jimbo and Loser54, your turn.

 

I choose the fatty. Which is funny, because you chase fatties around in the bars.

[Terminator]

Somebody was wrong about Jansen…

 

Big L for you

 

I know you aren’t the brightest but I did think you could actually read. Check who I voted for in that poll again lol