General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2022)

[Carlos Danger]

Plus the Pirates aren't trading him, they were asking for J-Rod a year or two ago. And we aren't a match, regardless.

 

Agree. If we could sign Bassit in FA and trade for Lopez or Perez that would be a very nice rotation!!

[Eat My Shatkins]

Is there any projections on Senga? I'm still hoping the Jays nab him

[Spanky99]

Is there any projections on Senga? I'm still hoping the Jays nab him

 

ZIPS has him as a 3 win pitcher.

 

18 on this list...

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2023-top-50-free-agents/

[Eat My Shatkins]

ZIPS has him as a 3 win pitcher.

 

18 on this list...

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2023-top-50-free-agents/

 

Yeah, that'd be awesome.

 

Sign an OFer (Conforto? Nimmo maybe?)

Trade for a somewhat controllable young starter (Lopez?)

Sign Senga

 

Manoah

Gausman

Berrios

Lopez

Senga

Kikuchi

White

 

Solid rotation depth that can spill over into the bullpen, and then you have guys like Tiedemann and Zulu really close too.

[Carlos Danger]

Yeah, that'd be awesome.

 

Sign an OFer (Conforto? Nimmo maybe?)

Trade for a somewhat controllable young starter (Lopez?)

Sign Senga

 

Manoah

Gausman

Berrios

Lopez

Senga

Kikuchi

White

 

Solid rotation depth that can spill over into the bullpen, and then you have guys like Tiedemann and Zulu really close too.

 

I see a solid 5 with that list, though I would prefer Bassit. However, I don't see solid depth. I don't consider Kickuchi and White solid starter depth. Trying to skate by on 5 SPs IF we even pulled something like that off (the top 5) is not a recipe for success. We need more depth even if that top 5 comes to fruition.

[Eat My Shatkins]

I see a solid 5 with that list, though I would prefer Bassit. However, I don't see solid depth. I don't consider Kickuchi and White solid starter depth. Trying to skate by on 5 SPs IF we even pulled something like that off (the top 5) is not a recipe for success. We need more depth even if that top 5 comes to fruition.

 

Kikuchi had a rough year but he still projects as a 1.2 WAR pitcher and White put up 1.3 WAR last season and projects as a 0.8 WAR pitcher.

Kikuchi started 20 games for the Jays last year and they still won 92 games, and White combined to start 18 games for last season for two playoff teams.

 

I dunno man, if those are your projected 6th and 7th starters I think you're doing pretty good.

[Spanky99]

I see a solid 5 with that list, though I would prefer Bassit. However, I don't see solid depth. I don't consider Kickuchi and White solid starter depth. Trying to skate by on 5 SPs IF we even pulled something like that off (the top 5) is not a recipe for success. We need more depth even if that top 5 comes to fruition.

 

Jesus, man. What more would you expect? Senga, Lopez and Conforto, sign me up, lol.

[Spanky99]

Lets send the D-Backs, Moreno and Martinez for Carroll and get it over with. Dammit!!!

[Ehjays]

I see a solid 5 with that list, though I would prefer Bassit. However, I don't see solid depth. I don't consider Kickuchi and White solid starter depth. Trying to skate by on 5 SPs IF we even pulled something like that off (the top 5) is not a recipe for success. We need more depth even if that top 5 comes to fruition.

 

[Ehjays]

Blue Jays “Remain Engaged” On Justin Verlander’s Market

By Mark Polishuk | December 4, 2022 at 9:02pm CDT

 

Justin Verlander strongly considered joining the Blue Jays last winter, to the point that the Jays may have been the runner-up to the Astros in the race to sign the future Hall-of-Famer. Toronto’s interest is still active a year later, and Sportsnet’s Shi Davidi writes that the Jays “remain engaged with” Verlander in the right-hander’s latest trip to the open market.

 

After a Cy Young Award-winning season, Verlander’s price tag has naturally gone up. Verlander landed a two-year, $50MM deal from the Astros last offseason despite missing virtually all of the 2020-21 seasons due to Tommy John surgery, and even though 2022 was Verlander’s age-39 season. Still, Verlander was more than worth the investment, as he posted one of the finest years of his incredible career and helped lead Houston to a World Series championship.

 

With his 40th birthday approaching in February, Verlander is reportedly looking for a three-year deal worth roughly $130MM, akin to the deal Max Scherzer received from the Mets when Scherzer was entering his age-37 campaign (Scherzer turned 38 last July). The Scherzer deal represents the highest annual average value for any contract in baseball history, so speculatively, it would seem likely that Verlander and his representatives would want to top that AAV even if by just a bit, in order to set a new benchmark.

 

It’s a steep asking price for any team to meet, even if Verlander is a unique case as an all-time great who is still pitching at an elite level this late into his career. Such a large AAV is a risk for a player who will be in action only once every five years, and if Verlander gets hurt or has any kind of performance dropoff, the contract could quickly start to look like an albatross.

 

Spending that much on Verlander would also set a new standard for the Blue Jays, whose payroll is already at a record high for the franchise. Adding a $43MM-ish salary to the ledger would also put the Jays over the luxury tax threshold for the first time in club history — Roster Resource projects Toronto’s current tax number at slightly over $201MM, so a big AAV for Verlander would send the Blue Jays well over the initial $233MM tax threshold.

 

As Davidi puts it, signing Verlander “may very well cut [the Jays] off from other significant moves.” That is no small matter for a team that several other needs to be addressed beyond the rotation, even if starting pitching is Toronto’s top need. The Jays could use some more outfield depth after trading Teoscar Hernandez, second base is a somewhat unsettled area, and the bullpen could use some more reinforcement even after the addition of Erik Swanson from the Mariners in the Hernandez swap. If ownership did allow the front office to spend up to the tax threshold, it can be argued that the extra money would be better served being spent on multiple players, rather than a single superstar in Verlander.

 

All this to be said, signing Verlander would still make some baseball sense for the obvious boost he’d bring to the pitching staff. Verlander, Alek Manoah, and Kevin Gausman would become arguably the top rotation trio in the sport, Jose Berrios would be an overqualified fourth starter if he can regain his form after a mediocre 2022 season, and the Jays might feel better about Yusei Kikuchi and Mitch White battling over one starting spot than entrusting two spots in the rotation to question marks. If payroll or roster needs are a concern, the Jays could look to cut some salary in other areas, plus Toronto could still trade from its catching depth to acquire more talent.

[Spanky99]

Freddy McGriff is in the HOF... WOOOOOOOOO!!!

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/fred-mcgriff-elected-to-hall-of-fame-2023-class

 

The Crime Dog gets his Day!!!

Edited December 5, 2022 by Spanky99

[AdamGreenwood]

I do not want the Jays to pau Verlander $130 for 3 years.

most I would want is $70 for 2, which likely won't get him. Let someone else overpay and take the risk.

We already have Ryu anchoring us down this year, and Kikuchi hitting us for two more years.

[Laika]

3 years for Verlander is insane. Anyone his age is year-to-year. If he has another big injury it's game over.

 

Based on his talent it's reasonable to risk a second year on him but risking a third at such a high AAV - that's a hail mary move most teams should never make.

 

I high payroll team that can absorb $40M in dead money for one or two years... sure. Go for it.

[Deadpool]

I'm out on Verlander at anything approaching that cost/term. I'm fine with 4th OF Nathan Lukes, but I'm not super keen on Starting CF Nathan Lukes.

[Brownie19]

I see a solid 5 with that list, though I would prefer Bassit. However, I don't see solid depth. I don't consider Kickuchi and White solid starter depth. Trying to skate by on 5 SPs IF we even pulled something like that off (the top 5) is not a recipe for success. We need more depth even if that top 5 comes to fruition.

 

Your expectations are too high. If Kikuchi and White are your 6th and 7th starters, you're in good shape man.

[jaysblue]

Kikuchi had a rough year but he still projects as a 1.2 WAR pitcher and White put up 1.3 WAR last season and projects as a 0.8 WAR pitcher.

Kikuchi started 20 games for the Jays last year and they still won 92 games, and White combined to start 18 games for last season for two playoff teams.

 

I dunno man, if those are your projected 6th and 7th starters I think you're doing pretty good.

 

Yeah White and Kikuchi as your projected 6th and 7th starters is more than fine and probably a lot better than most teams around the league.

[John_Havok]

3 years for Verlander is insane. Anyone his age is year-to-year. If he has another big injury it's game over.

 

Based on his talent it's reasonable to risk a second year on him but risking a third at such a high AAV - that's a hail mary move most teams should never make.

 

I high payroll team that can absorb $40M in dead money for one or two years... sure. Go for it.

 

2 years plus a vesting option based on IP would be as far as I would go.

[L54]

The Mets will end up giving him 3/120

[jaysblue]

The Mets will end up giving him 3/120

 

Yeah after losing deGrom, Mets are definitely eager to replace him with an arm like Verlander. I could see the Mets going a guaranteed third year.

[John_Havok]

Yeah after losing deGrom, Mets are definitely eager to replace him with an arm like Verlander. I could see the Mets going a guaranteed third year.

 

ScherLander would be a pretty sweet tandem but man would I be worried about them both dying on the mound. Having your top two arms at 38 and 40 would be slightly terrifying, expecially when youd be paying them 40 million+ each

[Stangstag]

ScherLander would be a pretty sweet tandem but man would I be worried about them both dying on the mound. Having your top two arms at 38 and 40 would be slightly terrifying, expecially when youd be paying them 40 million+ each

 

Steve Cohen is kinda new to baseball.

[Jimcanuck]

Steve Cohen is kinda new to baseball.

 

Steve Cohen paid $91 million for a giant balloon. The guy has more money than brains.

[Stangstag]

Steve Cohen paid $91 million for a giant balloon. The guy has more money than brains.

 

Im not sure which is bigger… his wallet, his mouth, or his ego. Deadly combo

[Eat My Shatkins]

I can't see the Jays blowing their wad on a 40 year old pitcher for 3 years even if it is reigning CY winner Justin Verlander

 

But who knows, maybe they have a bigger wad than we anticipated?

[Jonn]

As long as these contracts are only handed out at the high end I’m ok with these insane terms. Mid to lower end rotation guys should still be signed reasonably.

 

Don’t want to see an NBA situation where role players are making 12-15m a year. Which is the equivalent of giving your utility man a huge contract.

 

Would love to have Verlander for a couple of years. But he’s almost 40. Someone will give him that though. And honestly he probably deserves it. He should take his huge payday he’s got his 2 World Series.

[Laika]

As long as these contracts are only handed out at the high end I’m ok with these insane terms. Mid to lower end rotation guys should still be signed reasonably.

 

Don’t want to see an NBA situation where role players are making 12-15m a year. Which is the equivalent of giving your utility man a huge contract.

 

Would love to have Verlander for a couple of years. But he’s almost 40. Someone will give him that though. And honestly he probably deserves it. He should take his huge payday he’s got his 2 World Series.

 

Why does that matter?

They just have smaller rosters. Team payrolls in the top half of the NBA are similar to top half of MLB. Believe MLB average payroll is slightly higher, actually.

[RobinThicc]

Waiting for the Heaney announcement

[Jonn]

Why does that matter?

They just have smaller rosters. Team payrolls in the top half of the NBA are similar to top half of MLB. Believe MLB average payroll is slightly higher, actually.

 

Sports is a game of stars. Those are the ones who should be paid. And everyone else gets that scraps. Connor McDavid barely making more than Darnell Nurse is example of how poorly market value works in sports currently.

 

It use to be a lot more in control. NBA is by far the worst.

[L54]

ScherLander would be a pretty sweet tandem but man would I be worried about them both dying on the mound. Having your top two arms at 38 and 40 would be slightly terrifying, expecially when youd be paying them 40 million+ each

 

Nothing says all in like paying two 40 year olds 80M a season to pitch 40% of your games

 

How many starters like those two end up retiring on their own after a good season? I don’t have the answer but doesn’t feel like very many. What seems most likely is either an injury or decline in performance forces them to retire. Not a great outcome either way.

[Laika]

Sports is a game of stars. Those are the ones who should be paid. And everyone else gets that scraps. Connor McDavid barely making more than Darnell Nurse is example of how poorly market value works in sports currently.

 

It use to be a lot more in control. NBA is by far the worst.

 

Everyone who manages to make the highest level of the game is sort of a star.

 

Really weird tbh to want specific highest level players to make less money. Like, what happened to you as a child that makes you want to see guys like Santiago Espinal or Chris Boucher not get paid?

 

The uber stars can elevate their income with endorsements and s*** anyway.