General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2022)

[Daniel Labude]

 

lol. Love this reaction. We still won cause immense talent and this line up was Leagues standard. Olerud was benched for Carter which is shocking if you look at the numbers today.

 

Simple answer on Carter in 4th spot = Dem' Ribbeys

 

Look at Carters career stats. Ungodly over rated.

 

But that 4th spot RBIs is what this current team is missing. Super undervalued over time

[John_Havok]

But that 4th spot RBIs is what this current team is missing. Super undervalued over time

 

There’s no such thing as 4th spot RBIs as people tend to think of them.

 

There would be very few 4th spot RBIs of the 3 guys in front of him never got on base enough. If Joe Carter hit 8th, he wouldn’t still be getting 100+ RBIs in a season. RBIs are not a talent or skill, they are largely the result of someone hitting with runners on base and scoring position a lot.

 

And before you come at me with the usual BS and tired arguments about clutchness, just don’t. I really don’t care. The average mlb player hits better with runners in scoring position, so it’s entirely logical that a better hitter would also hit better with RISP. Clutch is not a skill that be called upon at will.

[Daniel Labude]

There’s no such thing as 4th spot RBIs as people tend to think of them.

 

There would be very few 4th spot RBIs of the 3 guys in front of him never got on base enough. If Joe Carter hit 8th, he wouldn’t still be getting 100+ RBIs in a season. RBIs are not a talent or skill, they are largely the result of someone hitting with runners on base and scoring position a lot.

 

And before you come at me with the usual BS and tired arguments about clutchness, just don’t. I really don’t care. The average mlb player hits better with runners in scoring position, so it’s entirely logical that a better hitter would also hit better with RISP. Clutch is not a skill that be called upon at will.

 

It is a talent and skill. Some can do it and others can't

 

Its logical that it doesn't matter...but still every single year top hitters can suck with RISP and average hitters look like Bonds with RISP. Its not random, sorry

[BigCecil]

Joe Carter is actually underrated and you all need to stop hating on him.

 

He was really good as a Blue Jay for his age 31-33 seasons while they were contending the 3 years after acquiring him. It's not his fault he turned 34 and the team inexplicably batted him in the middle of the lineup for another 4 years. Also, let's not forget he hit one of the biggest home runs in baseball history. Dude is a legend.

 

Terminator sarcasm? 17 career WAR. Hmm. Durable as hell. Hey, I'll never ever forget watching that home run and be eternally grateful. That's a moment that is so rare and lives forever. But I know a few people who knew him some and all said he was a bit of a jerk. Under rated? Don't think so.

[Terminator]

He's underrated on this board easy. Everyone talks about him like he was total trash but for the 3 years we were in contention he put up 3.2 WAR a year. Seems like a pretty good player to me.

[Solaxys]

 

Ban the shift. Poor Kevin.

Really cool video looking at all the oddities of Gausman's season - how he has been elite and en route to a historic season, but not in the way you'd think.

[Stangstag]

It is a talent and skill. Some can do it and others can't

 

Its logical that it doesn't matter...but still every single year top hitters can suck with RISP and average hitters look like Bonds with RISP. Its not random, sorry

 

Joe Carter’s WPA numbers are very bad for both 1992/1993

 

The whole Joe Carter is a clutch hitter thing is a load of crap. He holds the most legendary homerun in franchise history but lets not pretend that he was one of the main reasons the Jays won it all

[Spanky__99]

So what does the pitching look like for this Boston series?

 

Manoah/Gausman/Stripling?

 

You're very close, they switched up the order... Gausman/Manoah and Strip.

[Olerud363]

Joe Carter is actually underrated and you all need to stop hating on him.

 

He was really good as a Blue Jay for his age 31-33 seasons while they were contending the 3 years after acquiring him. It's not his fault he turned 34 and the team inexplicably batted him in the middle of the lineup for another 4 years. Also, let's not forget he hit one of the biggest home runs in baseball history. Dude is a legend.

 

Olerud and Candy Maldonado were both better hitters in 92. Carter was good in 1991, but like the 10th best player on the 92 and 93 teams.

[BigCecil]

He's underrated on this board easy. Everyone talks about him like he was total trash but for the 3 years we were in contention he put up 3.2 WAR a year. Seems like a pretty good player to me.

 

92 & 93 WS years Carter was worth 2 and 2.9 WAR. Olerud was worth 3.1 and 8.1. Olerud was benched those years in playoffs to get Carters bat into the game.

 

History is kinder to this because Carter hit THE home run. Thats why he is on the Level Of Excellence and Jose who also was dramatically better, for example, isn't. Nor is Olerud.

 

But he was over rated. Total trash? Of course not. Pretty good? Yes. He was kind of like Teo in comparison relative to the 22 Jays.

Edited July 22, 2022 by BigCecil

[Olerud363]

92 & 93 he was worth 2 and 2.9 WAR. Olerud was worth 3.1 and 8.1. Olerud was benched those years in playoffs to get Carters bat into the game.

 

History is kinder to this because Carter hit THE home run. Thats why he is on the Level Of Excellence and Jose who also was dramatically better, for example, isn't.

 

But he was over rated. Total trash? Of course not. Pretty good? Yes. He was kind of like Teo in comparison relative to the 22 Jays.

 

Carter is so over-rated even the people that know he's over-rated like you and me, over-rate him. I read your post and thought, that's a great comparison... then I checked the numbers.

 

From 91-93 Carter's wOBA was 120, 108, and 105, from 2020 to 2022 Teo's was 142, 132 and 119.

 

Teo is way better. Problem is that Teo lost 100 games in the Covid season, and seems to be injured 30 games a year which dampens his numbers.

 

Carter's skill was that he was healthy and loved. I think Randall Grichuk is a better comparison. Imagine a Grichuk who is super healthy, and plays as well as he can for 160 games hitting third, then gets "established", and they never move him from the 3rd spot. And he stays super-healthy in the third spot forever, even as he starts having bad Grichuk seasons. That's Carter.

[Daniel Labude]

Carter is so over-rated even the people that know he's over-rated like you and me, over-rate him. I read your post and thought, that's a great comparison... then I checked the numbers.

 

From 91-93 Carter's wOBA was 120, 108, and 105, from 2020 to 2022 Teo's was 142, 132 and 119.

 

Teo is way better. Problem is that Teo lost 100 games in the Covid season, and seems to be injured 30 games a year which dampens his numbers.

 

Carter's skill was that he was healthy and loved. I think Randall Grichuk is a better comparison. Imagine a Grichuk who is super healthy, and plays as well as he can for 160 games hitting third, then gets "established", and they never move him from the 3rd spot. And he stays super-healthy in the third spot forever, even as he starts having bad Grichuk seasons. That's Carter.

 

Think another player

 

Current player (last 3 seasons) OPS+ 127, 121, 102

Carter (91-93) OPS+ 124, 120, 112

[Stangstag]

Think another player

 

Current player (last 3 seasons) OPS+ 127, 121, 102

Carter (91-93) OPS+ 124, 120, 112

 

Bichette??

[BigCecil]

I didn't realize they benched Olerud for Carter in 1992. I just remember the controversy around benching him in game 3 of the 1993 WS for Molitor.

 

Never forget it. Otis Nixon drag bunt. Timlin picks it up and flips to who at first who catches it to end game and win World Series. He immediately starts jumping up and down. It's Joe Carter 1992.

[Olerud363]

Think another player

 

Current player (last 3 seasons) OPS+ 127, 121, 102

Carter (91-93) OPS+ 124, 120, 112

 

Well you are comparing a 22-24 year old short stop to a 31-33 year old left fielder's best 3 year run.

 

And Bo already lost his batting spot to a really slow catcher and will likely be moved down further if current trends continue.

 

I mean Bo was put behind Kirk after Kirk was good for like 6 weeks. Olerud was hitting .400 into August and still behind Carter.

 

So, yes, Bo is a disappointment, but team is reacting and diminishing his role a bit, and will continue to do so if he continues to struggle. No special treatment.

 

As a side note the decision to move Bo down was Schneiders, so maybe Montoya would have become a Cito like problem if he won... I mean maybe in 2026 a 40 million a year Bo with a .290 on base percentage and negative d-rating would have 720 plate appearances hitting second at short stop cuz Charlie was loyal.

[Daniel Labude]

Bichette??

 

Yep. Was funny how similar the OPS+ is for Carter and now Bo who is hitting 4th

[Stangstag]

Yep. Was funny how similar the OPS+ is for Carter and now Bo who is hitting 4th

 

Yeah. To be fair though almost all of us have been calling for him to be moved down to 5th for a while now. Also he’s young and still has upside with the bat. Not exactly the same.

 

Also the jays don’t have multiple 140wRC+ hitters hitting below him.

 

Imagine a daily lineup like this:

 

1. Tapia

2. Bichette

3. Springer

4. Chapman

5. Vlad

6. Teo

7. Kirk

 

Gotta respect the vets. That’s basically a Cito lineup equivalent

[polar bear]

Joe Carter is actually underrated and you all need to stop hating on him.

 

He was really good as a Blue Jay for his age 31-33 seasons while they were contending the 3 years after acquiring him. It's not his fault he turned 34 and the team inexplicably batted him in the middle of the lineup for another 4 years. Also, let's not forget he hit one of the biggest home runs in baseball history. Dude is a legend.

 

Nonsense,on the underrated comment,and who in their right mind would hate Joe?

If anything,I’d say he was slightly overrated.

[keggy]

Carter is so over-rated even the people that know he's over-rated like you and me, over-rate him. I read your post and thought, that's a great comparison... then I checked the numbers.

 

From 91-93 Carter's wOBA was 120, 108, and 105, from 2020 to 2022 Teo's was 142, 132 and 119.

 

Teo is way better. Problem is that Teo lost 100 games in the Covid season, and seems to be injured 30 games a year which dampens his numbers.

 

Carter's skill was that he was healthy and loved. I think Randall Grichuk is a better comparison. Imagine a Grichuk who is super healthy, and plays as well as he can for 160 games hitting third, then gets "established", and they never move him from the 3rd spot. And he stays super-healthy in the third spot forever, even as he starts having bad Grichuk seasons. That's Carter.

 

Carter's reputation was shredded during the Moneyball era because he didn't draw a lot of walks. At his best had power, speed, and played defense. He was a solid starter on a good team, he just looks bad because every single player on those World Series teams was a borderline hall of famer.

 

Grichuk isn't even worthy of a bench spot on a playoff team.

[John_Havok]

It is a talent and skill. Some can do it and others can't

 

Its logical that it doesn't matter...but still every single year top hitters can suck with RISP and average hitters look like Bonds with RISP. Its not random, sorry

 

RBIs are neither a talent, nor a skill. Tbhey are the result of a hitter being his normal self when hitters get on base in fornt of him

 

Nobody on base in fornt of you = no RBI's except your own HRs.

 

The end.

[itaos]

It is a talent and skill. Some can do it and others can't

 

Its logical that it doesn't matter...but still every single year top hitters can suck with RISP and average hitters look like Bonds with RISP. Its not random, sorry

 

https://fantasy.fangraphs.com/rbi-and-batting-order/

 

There are going to be outliers that excel with risp over their career but RBIs are largely a function of batting order.

[Daniel Labude]

Yes you need opportunity to get RBIs, but you still need a skill to get RBIs. Situational hitting, RISP hitting, etc all plays a part. Its a skill/talent. Period

[BigCecil]

Nonsense,on the underrated comment,and who in their right mind would hate Joe?

If anything,I’d say he was slightly overrated.

 

lol. I think the lowest career WAR on the Level of Excellence is 43. Other than Joe who has 17.

 

Slightly? He is there because he hit the biggest HR in franchise history and one of the biggest ever.

 

Which is fine but lets be clear about why he is there. As a player, over rated dramatically.

[Spanky__99]

Joe Carter is actually underrated and you all need to stop hating on him.

 

He was really good as a Blue Jay for his age 31-33 seasons while they were contending the 3 years after acquiring him. It's not his fault he turned 34 and the team inexplicably batted him in the middle of the lineup for another 4 years. Also, let's not forget he hit one of the biggest home runs in baseball history. Dude is a legend.

 

Hahaha... trolling. He's not underrated nor does anyone hate on him. Full stop, mate.

[Spanky__99]

lol. I think the lowest career WAR on the Level of Excellence is 43. Other than Joe who has 17.

 

Slightly? He is there because he hit the biggest HR in franchise history and one of the biggest ever.

 

Which is fine but lets be clear about why he is there. As a player, over rated dramatically.

 

He's there for the HR, that's it. He had a few good years, but nothing to write home about, certainly overrated.

[Jays24]

So let me get this straight, Shapiro was upset with AA at trading prospects in 2015 for a short term run but now people are talking about mortgaging our farm system for 2/3 year rental?

 

The whole philosophy from Shapiro was "sustainable winning." Any trade for Soto is the opposite of that. Funny how people's perceptions change when it's their ass on the line loll.

 

We're better off keeping our farm system and just spending money in free agency than going down this road. Now if we can keep Soto then it's a totally different situation.

[Solaxys]

[Spanky__99]

lmao... Tapia leading off. George is made of glass.

 

[Daniel Labude]

Tapia starting CF...Springer out again.

[JaysAllMighty]

lmao... Tapia leading off. George is made of glass.

 

 

Even dumbtoyo had better lineups. f***ing sad.