General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2022)

[Stangstag]

Most likely, it's a deep bruise, he should be okay, putting him on the IL is no bueno man. That's 3 starts, including the game we lost him on Saturday, they can certainly wait.

 

Its such crap that pitchers have the 15 day DL instead of the 10 day. Wtf is up with that

[JFD]

[M.E.]

This team needs a shake up. Fire a coach or make a trade of significance. Something to break up the status quo.

[BigCecil]

Reliever volatility? How about SP:

 

Ryu, Kukuchi, Roark to date = $140M = 3.3 fWAR

 

Ray, Matz 2021 = $13M = 6.7 fWAR

[Solaxys]

 

Charlie hates Kikuchi man lol - dude's singlehandedly putting Montoyo's job security on the line by being terrible every 5 days.

[RobinThicc]

Kikuchi needs a phantom IL stint, but for 3 years.

[Laika]

 

Charlie hates Kikuchi man lol - dude's singlehandedly putting Montoyo's job security on the line by being terrible every 5 days.

 

You could see it on his face

 

He is doing everything he can with the media to tell the front office to fix the problem

 

Insane to see from Chuckles

[Solaxys]

July so far (1-5) | SSS but it is what it is:

 

Gurriel: 299 wRC+, 1.420 OPS, 1.00 BB/K (league average is 0.43)

Biggio: 183 wRC+, 0.976 OPS, 0.75 BB/K

Vladdy: 130 wRC+, 0.833 OPS, 0.00 BB/K (no walks lol)

 

Everyone else below 100 wRC+ with Springer/Chapman/Moreno under 30 wRC+ (this includes last night's 3 for 4 by Chapman). Kirk has been in a bit of a rut but his barrel%/hard-hit% has still been excellent.

 

If we extend back to the last two weeks (50+ PA for starters), top 3:

Kirk: 200 wRC+, 1.057 OPS, 1.33 BB/K

Gurriel: 199 wRC+, 1.051 OPS, 0.5 BB/K

Biggio: 189 wRC+, 1.009 OPS, 0.7 BB/K

 

Teo is at 140, rest are at 100 +/- 5 (Bo/Espinal/Tapia being the below 100 ones)

 

---

So why in the hell would you, as Charlie, PH Biggio for Vladdy instead of Tapia.

Like, what the f*** lol.

Biggio can go left field if you are so concerned of not burning Gurriel's day off.

Come on man.

 

Alongside the send of Kirk, the 6th inning was a coaching masterclass.

[Olerud363]

---

So why in the hell would you, as Charlie, PH Biggio for Vladdy instead of Tapia.

Like, what the f*** lol.

Biggio can go left field if you are so concerned of not burning Gurriel's day off.

Come on man.

 

Alongside the send of Kirk, the 6th inning was a coaching masterclass.

 

Biggio is a victim of the times. Would have been better off playing for the 1999 As, or 2003 Red Sox, before they had fancy hard hit rates, and guys like Keith Law on social media and they just looked at on base percentage.

 

Actually between 98 and 2015 or so no team would have ever played Tapia over Biggio with the exception of the 2009ish Blue Jays.

[Olerud363]

Biggio is a victim of the times. Would have been better off playing for the 1999 As, or 2003 Red Sox, before they had fancy hard hit rates, and guys like Keith Law on social media and they just looked at on base percentage.

 

Actually between 98 and 2015 or so no team would have ever played Tapia over Biggio with the exception of the 2009ish Blue Jays.

 

I mean could you imagine Biggio playing in his fathers time? Not a lot of shifting. Cutting edge for a front office was playing the on base percentage guy over the Tapia guy, not much data or loud mouths telling you who could hit the high 99 mph fastballs and not a lot of them anyway.

[Solaxys]

I mean could you imagine Biggio playing in his fathers time? Not a lot of shifting. Cutting edge for a front office was playing the on base percentage guy over the Tapia guy, not much data or loud mouths telling you who could hit the high 99 mph fastballs and not a lot of them anyway.

 

I get that but how do you even give the single 'problem' of not being able to square up high heat against all the statistics that he has been outperforming nearly everyone in this ball club since his return from IL?

 

He has 162 wRC+, 0.901 OPS, 0.7 BB/K since May 1st! Two months stretch! Coming from a LHB!

 

Biggio needs more credit from the FO, at least this year based on his current trend.

He strikes out just as much as Bo does but has triple his walk rate and just as much SLG.

He needs to be spot 2, against every righty we face until either Bo picks it up or Biggio falls off.

[Krylian]

This team needs a shake up. Fire a coach or make a trade of significance. Something to break up the status quo.

 

Someone steal the bongos.

[Olerud363]

I get that but how do you even give the single 'problem' of not being able to square up high heat against all the statistics that he has been outperforming nearly everyone in this ball club since his return from IL?

He has 162 wRC+, 0.901 OPS, 0.7 BB/K Since May 1st! Two months stretch! Coming from a LHB!

 

Biggio needs more credit from the FO, at least this year based on his current trend.

He strikes out just as much as Bo does but has triple his walk rate and just as much SLG. He needs to be spot 2.

 

I agree. I think they are being too fancy with Biggio and Tapia and Kirk. Play the guys who get on base 100+ points more than the other guy. If Biggio struggles with more playing time or an increased role then adjust.

[Dagagad]

This FO has a history of making guys they don’t believe in prove it over quite a long period and giving guys they do believe in a lot of rope.

 

It’s probably a good thing overall. In a very flukey streaky game, you need the courage of your own conviction.

 

In saying that, if they miss the playoffs because of pitching, it’s Charlie (and probably Pete Walker and every other coach) that is gone even though they probably don’t want to play Kikuchi. That’s just baseball. You get to fire a few coaching teams before your job is in trouble generally. Also why bitching about managers is pointless. 50% of their job is to be scapegoats if things go wrong.

 

I think Kikuchi gets another game btw.

[Solaxys]

This FO has a history of making guys they don’t believe in prove it over quite a long period and giving guys they do believe in a lot of rope.

 

It’s probably a good thing overall.

 

Maybe I'm just a bit too old school but I feel, doesn't matter your history or what tier prospect you are/were, you need to earn with your play on the field.

 

Bo has had his moments this year (May was looking really good) but he's back to underperforming in June and so far in July.

He doesn't look at many pitches (3.5 P/PA v. Biggio's 4.3 P/PA), has an obnoxiously high GB% (more than Vlad over that month lol), just cannot seem to table-set this year.

Perhaps the only issue with putting Biggio in spot 2 ahead of Vlad/Kirk is that instead of trying to get him to chase, they might just challenge him with heat and while he has gotten better at it, he still Ks frequently to that.

 

I think Kikuchi gets another game btw.

I think they run him out until ASB. He has what 2 starts left? One against Mariners and one against KC.

With Gausman as well probably not pitching until ASB is done, you are probably tied up anyway.

 

 

---

 

Still got 11 games to go. We can still end on a positive note if we go 8 - 3

[Laika]

Bo takes some of the worst swings imaginable. Balls three feet off the plate in the dirt.

[Dagagad]

Maybe I'm just a bit too old school but I feel, doesn't matter your history or what tier prospect you are/were, you need to earn with your play on the field.

 

Bo has had his moments this year (May was looking really good) but he's back to underperforming in June and so far in July.

He doesn't look at many pitches (3.5 P/PA v. Biggio's 4.3 P/PA), has an obnoxiously high GB% (more than Vlad over that month lol), just cannot seem to table-set this year.

Perhaps the only issue with putting Biggio in spot 2 ahead of Vlad/Kirk is that instead of trying to get him to chase, they might just challenge him with heat and while he has gotten better at it, he still Ks frequently to that.

 

 

I think they run him out until ASB. He has what 2 starts left? One against Mariners and one against KC.

With Gausman as well probably not pitching until ASB is done, you are probably tied up anyway.

 

 

---

 

Still got 11 games to go. We can still end on a positive note if we go 8 - 3

 

I think your projection and underlying data decides almost everything in modern baseball. If you prove that wrong over a significant sample, behavior will start to change. Yea, 2 more games seems right to get to the all star game.

[Dagagad]

Bo takes some of the worst swings imaginable. Balls three feet off the plate in the dirt.

 

You can’t extend that dude, right?

 

He’s a good player, I think he will provide tons of value over his control… but you pat him on the bum, tell him good luck and let some other team pay for the old version of Bo with that plate approach.

[Krylian]

Maybe I'm just a bit too old school but I feel, doesn't matter your history or what tier prospect you are/were, you need to earn with your play on the field.

 

Not sure that that's old school. To me, old school is 'tie goes to the veteran'.

[Ray]

Bo takes some of the worst swings imaginable. Balls three feet off the plate in the dirt.

 

You learn to live with that plate approach when he’s doing well. Less so when he has a .299 OBP.

[glory]

 

Charlie hates Kikuchi man lol - dude's singlehandedly putting Montoyo's job security on the line by being terrible every 5 days.

 

Yeah, Charlie's only/main skill seems to be dealing with players (it's certainly not in-game stuff), so for him to make that quote about Kikuchi is pretty alarming. Although to be fair, it's infuriating as a fan to watch Kikuchi when he's not on, so I can imagine it being a lot worse in the field and dugout when you're playing behind him.

 

As far as Biggio, it seems the organization (Charlie plus everyone else) thinks that Tapia has more potential. The most logical thing to do, especially when he's on a hot streak, is to play Biggio everyday all over the field. That's really the only way this "we need to DH regulars everyday" concept makes any sense, when you plug a good player into different spots so the regular can DH. For them to be using that on a -0.6 WAR player instead is baffling. It's something bad organizations do, not what the Jays should be doing.

 

The Jays are in a playoff spot, and probably will get a WC spot when all is said and done (unless the Mariners go crazy in the 2nd half.....can't see anyone else as a threat), but man is this team flawed and not fun to watch right now. Although this could work out in the end if they hold on to the 3rd WC spot at the end of the season and face the Twins in the WC round instead of Red Sox/Rays.

[Olerud363]

You canÂ’t extend that dude, right?

 

HeÂ’s a good player, I think he will provide tons of value over his controlÂ… but you pat him on the bum, tell him good luck and let some other team pay for the old version of Bo with that plate approach.

 

It's a tough decision. Extend him and you get his 28-33 seasons, or something like that. What is the final version here? a .250 hitter with a .295 on base? Or a .300 hitter with a .350 on base? Big difference and the latter was there from 2019 to 2021. And he could rebound and be an even better hitter age 25-29.

 

I guess he probably values him self as a 10 year 300 million guy, and Jays may value him as a 7 year 150 million guy or even less.

 

I think Berrios was a 3.5 WAR guy with 1 year remaining and got 7 130.

 

So if Bo is a 4 WAR guy with 3 years remaining what is that worth? Berrios is a risk because he is a pitcher and they implode (which he is doing). Bo is a risk because he swings at everything.

[Olerud363]

 

The Jays are in a playoff spot, and probably will get a WC spot when all is said and done (unless the Mariners go crazy in the 2nd half.....can't see anyone else as a threat), but man is this team flawed and not fun to watch right now. Although this could work out in the end if they hold on to the 3rd WC spot at the end of the season and face the Twins in the WC round instead of Red Sox/Rays.

 

Why do the Mariners have to go crazy ? They win the next series and Sunday night they are 1 game out of that playoff spot....

[wilko]

Kikuchi must be uncoachable or something. There's obviously a tug and pull with that cutter usage. Walker hates it and Kikuchi wants it. They gave it back to him and he s*** the bed again.

 

If Kikuchi's not uncoachable then Montoyo just threw him under the bus for no reason which is very stupid. We actually need this gas can to pick it up. You can't do that.

 

I'm guessing he's willing to work on stuff but his confidence is shot so he goes back to his old ways. His issue is 100% mental at this point and i'm not sure if that's fixable. Phantom IL stint to work things out can't hurt... but who's going to fill in?

[Krylian]

I'm guessing he's willing to work on stuff but his confidence is shot so he goes back to his old ways. His issue is 100% mental at this point and i'm not sure if that's fixable. Phantom IL stint to work things out can't hurt... but who's going to fill in?

 

Why do they still have to "fake" injuries (i.e. Phantom IL). The world in general (at least in North America) has really embraced Mental Health as a real and serious issue. Is it only issues like clinically diagnosed anxiety or depression that get legit attention? If Kikuchi is going through something that is deemed mental, and he isn't fit to perform, why can't he have a stint on the IL for 'Mental Health' so he can work through some of those psychological issues? A blister or a sprain are physical, I get it. But none of us are really going to be performing at peak abilities unless our minds are in tune as well...same as a tweaked back. Or are we not there yet, to view it as IL worthy?

[Dagagad]

It's a tough decision. Extend him and you get his 28-33 seasons, or something like that. What is the final version here? a .250 hitter with a .295 on base? Or a .300 hitter with a .350 on base? Big difference and the latter was there from 2019 to 2021. And he could rebound and be an even better hitter age 25-29.

 

I guess he probably values him self as a 10 year 300 million guy, and Jays may value him as a 7 year 150 million guy or even less.

 

I think Berrios was a 3.5 WAR guy with 1 year remaining and got 7 130.

 

So if Bo is a 4 WAR guy with 3 years remaining what is that worth? Berrios is a risk because he is a pitcher and they implode (which he is doing). Bo is a risk because he swings at everything.

 

I’m a subscriber to the theory that guys who rely on their physical ability to get bat to ball over approach can fall off extremely quickly as they age.

 

I’d happily pay him all the way through arb and then let him go. It might be a mistake but I’d take my chances.

 

Edit: I’m also a subscriber to the theory that you can only have so many potential uncompetitive at bats in one lineup. Which is one of the reasons I’d be totally fine with trading teo. That theory has no evidence behind it.

[wilko]

Why do they still have to "fake" injuries (i.e. Phantom IL). The world in general (at least in North America) has really embraced Mental Health as a real and serious issue. Is it only issues like clinically diagnosed anxiety or depression that get legit attention? If Kikuchi is going through something that is deemed mental, and he isn't fit to perform, why can't he have a stint on the IL for 'Mental Health' so he can work through some of those psychological issues? A blister or a sprain are physical, I get it. But none of us are really going to be performing at peak abilities unless our minds are in tune as well...same as a tweaked back. Or are we not there yet, to view it as IL worthy?

 

I agree 100% but it seems taboo in sports when those issues come up.

[Olerud363]

Edit: IÂ’m also a subscriber to the theory that you can only have so many potential uncompetitive at bats in one lineup. Which is one of the reasons IÂ’d be totally fine with trading teo. That theory has no evidence behind it.

 

Uncompetitive at bats = low on base percentage

 

Teo does great hitting .290.. however isn't good hitting .260... Guys like Bautista, AA, even Vladdy are productive hitting .260.

 

And if he isn't really a .290 hitter, or isn't a .290 hitter in his early 30s, he isn't really a middle of the order guy you can count on.

[Solaxys]

It's a tough decision. Extend him and you get his 28-33 seasons, or something like that. What is the final version here? a .250 hitter with a .295 on base? Or a .300 hitter with a .350 on base? Big difference and the latter was there from 2019 to 2021. And he could rebound and be an even better hitter age 25-29.

 

I guess he probably values him self as a 10 year 300 million guy, and Jays may value him as a 7 year 150 million guy or even less.

 

I think Berrios was a 3.5 WAR guy with 1 year remaining and got 7 130.

 

So if Bo is a 4 WAR guy with 3 years remaining what is that worth? Berrios is a risk because he is a pitcher and they implode (which he is doing). Bo is a risk because he swings at everything.

 

Bo wants to be a superstar, and he has the makings of it if he learns discipline and stops giving up on his two-strike approach.

There is no way we'll sign both Vlad and Bo, but we'll definitely keep one - which one will depend on how they do over the years.

Bo also had only one 5.1 WAR year; his defense definitely got better this year than the last 3, so he's on track for 3 WAR because his offense dropped.

Maybe he's going through the same spell Kirk did while trying to figure out the defense - and next year we'll see the true emergence of Bo.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Solaxys

[Dagagad]

Vlad all day right now but I definitely just wait and see. Bo would have to make pretty unprecedented changes to his approach that might not even work for him.

 

If Moreno works out, he is an extension candidate. Signed for a pittance. Could probably get him on a great contract. Exploitive but yea..