Montoyo signs extension

[Deadpool]

This will work itself out when Moreno hits his way onto the team. At that point, goodbye McGuire. And potentially Biggio also, for pitching help.

 

I'm really not seeing a scenario where Biggio is moved, barring a pretty hefty return.

[Jimcanuck]

Who's your 2B? Full time Espinal?

 

Orelvis, lol

 

But ya I didn't think this through. Just anticipate a mid season trade for high leverage bullpen help. Let's see how it shakes out.

[glory]

I have a strong feeling that Montoyo is going to screw up the lineup on a consistent basis by subbing Kirk out too often.

 

Steamer projects Kirk to be our 2nd best hitter this year with a 129 wRC+. This guy could be special and he really needs to be in the lineup everyday either as the DH or as the backup C. Instead, I have a feeling that we'll see Greg Bird and Reese McGuire in the lineup way too often.

 

Bird is definitely going to steal AB’s from Kirk against RHP, and definitely pinch hit for him late in games. I still think Tapia pinch hitting for Kirk will happen more than once.

[Olerud363]

You act as if this trait is unique to Cito Gaston. Players like Jeter and Pujols have gotten favourable treatment by managers well past their prime in this day and age, even with all the advanced stats.

 

Old Jeter or Pujols isn't the same as old Juan Samuel or Pat Tabler. The latter group were a dime a dozen and always seemed to find 250 at bats on Citos teams.

[Olerud363]

Cito controls BABIP of his players by telling them to pull the ball and being mean to them. I'll let Olerud explain the details.

 

I said that you idiot. "I am sure it wasn't all Gaston's fault, however it was typical Cito, promoting himself and claiming he was helping a player, when he clearly wasn't."

 

I wasn't blaming Cito for ruining Homer Bush... he was Homer Bush. It was laughable because Cito had no idea that Homer had hit better under the old coach. He was blaming the old coach for something that didn't happen. And it was funny because Homer actually walked more under Cito in 2000 then he had before anyway.

[Olerud363]

Homer Bush is BABIP Case Study 1

 

BABIP, WAR in consecutive years

 

.510, 0.5

.374, 2.8

.266, -1.6

.360, 1.0

.274, -0.8

 

Yeah. Totally agree. And my point wasn't that Cito ruined Homer Bush or anything. Cito took over as hitting coach in 2000 and I remember hearing this interview in mid 2000. Cito was going on about how the coach's had screwed homer up, and tried to make him walk too much and Cito would fix it. It was funny because Homer had been fine under the other coaches (even if it was luck).

[Jimcanuck]

Yeah. Totally agree. And my point wasn't that Cito ruined Homer Bush or anything. Cito took over as hitting coach in 2000 and I remember hearing this interview in mid 2000. Cito was going on about how the coach's had screwed homer up, and tried to make him walk too much and Cito would fix it. It was funny because Homer had been fine under the other coaches (even if it was luck).

 

Oh I agree with you, Cito was a POS.

 

Wasn't trying to counter you with that post, was just an interesting sequence of numbers.

[Terminator]

Everyone is s***ing on Cito but 30 years ago I bet at least 95% of managers were doing the same crap he did. I'm sure he was a fine manager for the era.

[Krylian]

Everyone is s***ing on Cito but 30 years ago I bet at least 95% of managers were doing the same crap he did. I'm sure he was a fine manager for the era.

 

He managed the veteran's egos well. I will give him that. Hand in the lineup card. Pencil in Ward in the 8th and Henke in the 9th and take a nap.

[Spanky99]

Remember in 2008 when old ass Cito Gaston took over for Gibbons? Cito went 51-37 after the team started 35-39.

 

Cito could manage with the best of them. What a legend. Definitely deserving of the Jays Mt. Rushmore.

 

lol... I'm assuming you never really understood how big a dingleberry, Cito was. Birds were stacked in those years we won, thank God for Gillick and having the highest payrolls in baseball. Gillick is a Mt. Rushmore staple.

[Spanky99]

This is just classic Grant. Cito didn't receive anything close to Universal praise and was hated by many.

 

He had a poor record developing young players despite a good record working with older mid-career types (Devon White and Jose Bautista turn arounds are Cito's best work). I honestly believe this was because of his own experiences. Cito had a good season in 1970 and tanked in 71 (.260 on base) and never played much again.

 

I think he had a blind spot for every 29+ year old sub .300 on base guy, because he saw himself in them, so wanted these guys to get 8 more shots at the expense of the real prospectgs...

 

I've brought up the young left handed hitters, Olerud, Green, Delgado and Snider (yes even Delgado lost a few hundred at bats becasue of Cito's stupidity), but he also had a hard time with other guys, David Wells comes to mind.

 

Cito threw away a lot of talent because of personal disputes. In 1992 he left David Wells in to get hammered, like 13 runs or something just because he hated Wells, the Jays ended up losing a very good pitcher for nothing, because of Cito's tendency to feud with players.

 

Grant was a toddler during those years, he really doesn't know, and I don't get it, lol. Cito was a goof, a racist one at that.

[Spanky99]

I hear people say this. Why is this. Is it because of his actions and the way he managed, or the way he treats people away from the baseball diamond out in the general public.

 

Both, Jim's right... high grade asswipe! Cito was a decent hitting coach and excelled at it, once he became the Manager, he was bigger than the team and game himself. Same goes for Joe Carter, believe me.

[Spanky99]

I have a strong feeling that Montoyo is going to screw up the lineup on a consistent basis by subbing Kirk out too often.

 

Steamer projects Kirk to be our 2nd best hitter this year with a 129 wRC+. This guy could be special and he really needs to be in the lineup everyday either as the DH or as the backup C. Instead, I have a feeling that we'll see Greg Bird and Reese McGuire in the lineup way too often.

 

Reese McGuire needs the 4th and 40 treatment, time to punt.

[Olerud363]

Reese McGuire needs the 4th and 40 treatment, time to punt.

 

Is Biggio injured? Biggio has 5 plate appearances. Tapia 8, Collins 3.

 

No reason for this to happen. This is the type of thing that would cost the team a couple of WAR if it continued, like at this rate Biggio gets 200 plate appearances, and Tapia 350, Collins 150. That would cost some WAR assuming everyone plays at career rates.

 

Assuming Biggio is healthy he needs regular at bats. No reason he can't get back to 2019/20 form.

[connorp]

Is Biggio injured? Biggio has 5 plate appearances. Tapia 8, Collins 3.

 

No reason for this to happen. This is the type of thing that would cost the team a couple of WAR if it continued, like at this rate Biggio gets 200 plate appearances, and Tapia 350, Collins 150. That would cost some WAR assuming everyone plays at career rates.

 

Assuming Biggio is healthy he needs regular at bats. No reason he can't get back to 2019/20 form.

 

As has been mentioned, do you think Chuckles is unilaterally making the lineup decisions? Probably not. Clearly the FO isn’t of the same mindset as you. However, Biggio will still likely get his shot when others flame out

[Laika]

Is Biggio injured? Biggio has 5 plate appearances. Tapia 8, Collins 3.

 

No reason for this to happen. This is the type of thing that would cost the team a couple of WAR if it continued, like at this rate Biggio gets 200 plate appearances, and Tapia 350, Collins 150. That would cost some WAR assuming everyone plays at career rates.

 

Assuming Biggio is healthy he needs regular at bats. No reason he can't get back to 2019/20 form.

 

Well Collins is just to get the guy into a game early on. We don't really know if Collins would actually DH over Biggio throughout the season. I hope not.

 

And Tapia is going to draw into the OF over Biggio of course.

 

Biggio is squarely in a platoon with Espinal and I love to see it. Platoons are great.

[G-Snarls]

He managed the veteran's egos well. I will give him that. Hand in the lineup card. Pencil in Ward in the 8th and Henke in the 9th and take a nap.

 

Henderson/White

White/Molitor

Alomar

Carter/Winfield

Olerud

Fernandez

 

Wasn't hard to make that look good in any order either

[John_Havok]

Biggio is squarely in a platoon with Espinal and I love to see it. Platoons are great.

 

Except last night they were facing a RHP and Espy was in, so maybe not a true platoon, but just whomever's hitting well gets in.

[Olerud363]

Well Collins is just to get the guy into a game early on. We don't really know if Collins would actually DH over Biggio throughout the season. I hope not.

 

And Tapia is going to draw into the OF over Biggio of course.

 

Biggio is squarely in a platoon with Espinal and I love to see it. Platoons are great.

 

Espinal has 12 PAs Biggio 5, despite the fact that the Blue Jays haven't a faced a lefty starter yet (lefty relievers yes).

 

Maybe Keith Law is consulting with the Jays again?

[Laika]

Espinal has 12 PAs Biggio 5, despite the fact that the Blue Jays haven't a faced a lefty starter yet (lefty relievers yes).

 

Maybe Keith Law is consulting with the Jays again?

 

Yeah many of the reliever pinch hits scream platoon but they are definitely getting Espinal playing time early and rewarding him for being objectively better than Cavan Biggio at literally everything other than the skill of not swinging if that even is a skill seriously go away Cavan your time is up you are not one of the chosen few have a nice career in Oakland

[connorp]

Or Tampa

[Olerud363]

Or Tampa

 

That would be hilarious. Biggio 3.8 WAR. Espinal 3.7 WAR

 

Toronto 90 wins TBR 90 wins but....

 

TBR makes playoffs based on some dumb tie breaker runs scored based on .1 of an extra win Biggio created.

[Olerud363]

Yeah many of the reliever pinch hits scream platoon but they are definitely getting Espinal playing time early and rewarding him for being objectively better than Cavan Biggio at literally everything other than the skill of not swinging if that even is a skill seriously go away Cavan your time is up you are not one of the chosen few have a nice career in Oakland

 

Harsh. Biggio should have more at bats than Tapia, at least through April. We'll see what happens. Will suck if Biggio ends up somewhere else and horrible players get 500 plate appearances here.

 

That is where the manager (or lineup director upstairs) is worth a couple WAR or more. It's not just Biggio vs Espinal, but Biggio vs crap behind Biggio.

[Laika]

Harsh. Biggio should have more at bats than Tapia, at least through April. We'll see what happens. Will suck if Biggio ends up somewhere else and horrible players get 500 plate appearances here.

 

That is where the manager (or lineup director upstairs) is worth a couple WAR or more. It's not just Biggio vs Espinal, but Biggio vs crap behind Biggio.

 

No, positions matter. Biggio is a s*** outfielder (probably). Can't really play him over Tapia.

 

Biggio over Collins at DH - yes, sure.

 

I don't know, I am losing faith in Biggio. I know the projections are still fine but he just looks completely overmatched now and he has looked that way since the start of 2021. I think he may have had a single good month last year?

[Terminator]

Harsh. Biggio should have more at bats than Tapia, at least through April. We'll see what happens. Will suck if Biggio ends up somewhere else and horrible players get 500 plate appearances here.

 

How do we know that Biggio isn't one of the horrible players?

[connorp]

Harsh. Biggio should have more at bats than Tapia, at least through April. We'll see what happens. Will suck if Biggio ends up somewhere else and horrible players get 500 plate appearances here.

 

That is where the manager (or lineup director upstairs) is worth a couple WAR or more. It's not just Biggio vs Espinal, but Biggio vs crap behind Biggio.

 

That’s all just an indictment against Biggio. Team is clearly working off the internal data/opinions they have. He’ll still get a chance here-and-there and will need to make the most of the opportunities

[Laika]

Someone will get hurt and Biggio will draw in as a full time player for a few weeks and we will see what he's got.

[Olerud363]

How do we know that Biggio isn't one of the horrible players?

 

Biggio has 4 ish WAR in 240 games, Tapia like 0 in 400, Collins is like some guy who you don't expect to help (not my words).

 

So what I am saying is

 

Biggio was good for 160 straight and injured last year. Not yet time to replace him with horrible players. Algorithm should be Biggio gets at bats in April see if he rebounds then give the horrible players extra playing time if Biggio looks horrible after 100 at bats.

 

Even 100 at bats isn't enough, but if he looks horrible, and statscast is horrible, then I guess you give Keith the win. However 100 at bats first.

[Terminator]

Biggio has 4 ish WAR in 240 games, Tapia like 0 in 400, Collins is like some guy who you don't expect to help (not my words).

 

So what I am saying is

 

Biggio was good for 160 straight and injured last year. Not yet time to replace him with horrible players. Algorithm should be Biggio gets at bats in April see if he rebounds then give the horrible players extra playing time if Biggio looks horrible after 100 at bats.

 

Even 100 at bats isn't enough, but if he looks horrible, and statscast is horrible, then I guess you give Keith the win. However 100 at bats first.

 

Yeah that makes sense. I probably wouldn't have DH'd Collins over him but it's one game. I could see Collins getting a little more use here with Jansen on the DL so maybe knocking the rust off of him wasn't a bad idea. This Heineman guy sucks ass. He will definitely need a pinch hitter when he plays, thus necessitating playing time for Collins.

 

Biggio in the OF could work, but I think Zimmer is probably a better option than he is and probably Tapia too. It's a long season, Biggio will probably get 400 ABs still.

 

There's also the possibility that Biggio has some sort of nick that we just don't know about. Seems like when there are some puzzling moves being made it later comes out that there was something like that going on.

[Stangstag]

Someone will get hurt and Biggio will draw in as a full time player for a few weeks and we will see what he's got.

 

This. And I really hope he succeeds, because everyone has been absolutely s***ing on him since last year. He was excellent in 2019 and 2020 so I think he still has something