Montoyo signs extension

[Krylian]

Remember in 2008 when old ass Cito Gaston took over for Gibbons? Cito went 51-37 after the team started 35-39.

 

Cito could manage with the best of them. What a legend. Definitely deserving of the Jays Mt. Rushmore.

 

Cito was a garbage manager.

[Slade]

I mean he could still get fired if the team under performs. Not that worried about it. If it was a 5-year extension I would have been worried.

 

Yeah this doesn't really change anything, he gets next season guaranteed and then it's just team options. He was always going to get an extension with 91 Wins, Buffalo home games, plus the players actually seem to like him but if he fumbles with this roster the heat is getting turned up.

[M.E.]

What exactly makes him so terrible at his job?

 

That out of a bunch of terrible bullpen options in the first half of the year, he picked the terrible ones and a terrible result ensued?

 

When young guys were still young and developing, he gave more plate appearances to veterans so to manage their workload? Which for the most part, wasn't really an issue last year.

 

That once in a while he pinch hit and bunted at what armchair quarterbacks would deem inappropriate times?

 

In the meantime, all the young guys are developing on track. There are no Travis Sniders, no Shawn Greens, no Kelvim Escobars, no Kyle Drabeks. No one is requesting a trade. Everyone seems to be getting along. The closest to a bust right now is Pearson. I can't remember the last time the Jays had so few busts.

 

This board has group think where it nitpicks all these small things but fails to see the bigger picture. What were the Jays expectations heading into 2021? IIRC something like 20-30% chance of making the playoffs and low-80s in wins. They busted through that. We don't know how much or how little of an impact Montoyo had on the player development and mindset of the team. But based on results despite the difficulties this team had to overcome with the bullpen, they well surpassed expectations last year. Chances are Montoyo didn't have a negative effect on that part of the team, which is worth way more than the occasional 1980s-stlye managerial brain fart.

 

If you think of it as a +/- on wins because of him I firmly believe it was more than -1 which was the difference in making the playoffs last year.

[Terminator]

Cito was a garbage manager.

 

Back-to-back World Series wins say otherwise.

[Grant77]

Back-to-back World Series wins say otherwise.

 

It's easy to say we had a good team and should have won, but he was the right man for the job and received universal praise from his players. People just like to look back with today's analytic view and trash him, but he did an A+ job with what he had

[Olerud363]

It's easy to say we had a good team and should have won, but he was the right man for the job and received universal praise from his players. People just like to look back with today's analytic view and trash him, but he did an A+ job with what he had

 

lol. Remember the 2009 "mutiny"?? Cito did not receive universal praise from his players. Even 92/93 there were issues. Yes Tabler, Carter loved him, a would anyone who got undeserved line up spots and playing time. Olerud, Snider, Green, Overbay and even Vernon Wells had issues with him. Many players and media absolutely hated Cito.

 

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/2009/10/03/mutiny_in_blue_jays_clubhouse.html

 

"If something of that magnitude comes out, obviously there's some truth behind what comes up," Wells admitted. "It's tough for something like that to be stirred up and completely be fabricated. I think some of the issues that go on need to stay in here and be taken care of as a group."

[Olerud363]

It's easy to say we had a good team and should have won, but he was the right man for the job and received universal praise from his players. People just like to look back with today's analytic view and trash him, but he did an A+ job with what he had

 

 

This is just classic Grant. Cito didn't receive anything close to Universal praise and was hated by many.

 

He had a poor record developing young players despite a good record working with older mid-career types (Devon White and Jose Bautista turn arounds are Cito's best work). I honestly believe this was because of his own experiences. Cito had a good season in 1970 and tanked in 71 (.260 on base) and never played much again.

 

I think he had a blind spot for every 29+ year old sub .300 on base guy, because he saw himself in them, so wanted these guys to get 8 more shots at the expense of the real prospectgs...

 

I've brought up the young left handed hitters, Olerud, Green, Delgado and Snider (yes even Delgado lost a few hundred at bats becasue of Cito's stupidity), but he also had a hard time with other guys, David Wells comes to mind.

 

Cito threw away a lot of talent because of personal disputes. In 1992 he left David Wells in to get hammered, like 13 runs or something just because he hated Wells, the Jays ended up losing a very good pitcher for nothing, because of Cito's tendency to feud with players.

[Olerud363]

Montoyo's biggest challenge will be to allocate playing time among Biggio, Espinal, Tapia, Kirk, and later Groshans and Lopez will be in the mix. Dexter Fowler and Reese McGuire will be in the group too.

 

This is where the manager can potentially cost a couple of wins, if they let the wrong players get too much playing time and negative WAR at the expense of better players.

 

Not easy stuff. Totally possible Tapia could break out with a 3 WAR season, also possible he could be a negative WAR guy. Same with the others. Gotta give the right guys playing time while not being fooled by small sample size early season stuff.

[Jimcanuck]

Cito a high grade *******

[connorp]

Cito a high grade *******

 

I’m going to assume he voted Red?

[saskjayfan]

He was not so bad last year and is probably getting better but early on in his tenure he made a bunch of boneheaded tactical decisions and no i can't remember any of them

 

The Chatwood meltdown where he didn't get pulled. The second Chatwood meltdown where he did pull him still up one with the bases loaded and 2 outs and he brings in Travis Bergen to face a lefty with Jordan Romano on the bench who has revers splits. Extra innings a runner on third one out and he walks 2 not so great hitters to load the bases when we still had our own at bat in the bottom of the inning. The grand slam and in the bottom of the 10th Vlad hit a homer of his own and we lose by 2. The 2 guys charlie put on base. Those three seem burned into my brain from last year. There were others.

 

I mean, surely those were learning experiences. He has to be better this year. I feel like not having Chatwood will help Charlie out a bunch.

[saskjayfan]

Cito a high grade *******

 

I hear people say this. Why is this. Is it because of his actions and the way he managed, or the way he treats people away from the baseball diamond out in the general public.

[Jimcanuck]

I’m going to assume he voted Red?

 

If he did, it reinforces my point.

[Jimcanuck]

I hear people say this. Why is this. Is it because of his actions and the way he managed, or the way he treats people away from the baseball diamond out in the general public.

 

All of the above.

[Deadpool]

The Chatwood meltdown where he didn't get pulled. The second Chatwood meltdown where he did pull him still up one with the bases loaded and 2 outs and he brings in Travis Bergen to face a lefty with Jordan Romano on the bench who has revers splits. Extra innings a runner on third one out and he walks 2 not so great hitters to load the bases when we still had our own at bat in the bottom of the inning. The grand slam and in the bottom of the 10th Vlad hit a homer of his own and we lose by 2. The 2 guys charlie put on base. Those three seem burned into my brain from last year. There were others.

 

I mean, surely those were learning experiences. He has to be better this year. I feel like not having Chatwood will help Charlie out a bunch.

 

Joe Panik: Starting DH.

[Olerud363]

I hear people say this. Why is this. Is it because of his actions and the way he managed, or the way he treats people away from the baseball diamond out in the general public.

 

People could probably tell you 1 million stories. Here's one about Cito and Homer Bush. Homer Bush wasn't all that, probably somewhere around Tapia level, but he had a good year in 1999.

 

Cito took over as hitting coach in 2000 and the team took a step back, Bush in particular. No one really noticed because Carlos Delgado was having a monster year, and the teams stats looked good by historical measure, but they were in fact below average.

 

One time I heard Cito on the radio talking about how he was helping Homer Bush, he said Homer was trying to walk to much and the old coaches had messed him up. This was crazy. Homer didn't walk at all, and he hit .320 under the old coaches but .220 under Gaston. I am sure it wasn't all Gaston's fault, however it was typical Cito, promoting himself and claiming he was helping a player, when he clearly wasn't.

[Olerud363]

Joe Panik: Starting DH.

 

I totally agree this was idiotic. However I don't care much if it just happened once or twice. I tend to look at total plate appearances at the end of the season and judge by that.

 

I guess Panic was an issue if I use that criteria. He was with the Jays 4.5 calender months and got 220 plate appearances. I guess that would be 330 over a season. Should those have gone to someone else?

 

If this happens going forward. Like if a washed up Dexter Fowler is getting DH appearances that should be Kirk's then that will be a huge issue.

[Dick_Pole]

Point is I'm pretty convinced Cito Gaston was a narcosist who cost the team 5 wins a year and stunted the development of many young players.

 

You often hear guys say how awesome it was to play for Cito. Those guys are named Pat Tabler or Juan Samuel or Kevin Millar who got 250 plate appearances and a final pay check because of Cito. I'm sure he seemed awesome to them, not so much to Green, Olerud, Snider and probably even Delgado who missed a few hundred at bats from 94-98 when he was obviously ready, got sent down after slumps.... compare to Guerrero who was given chance to work out of slumps.

 

You act as if this trait is unique to Cito Gaston. Players like Jeter and Pujols have gotten favourable treatment by managers well past their prime in this day and age, even with all the advanced stats.

[Jimcanuck]

People could probably tell you 1 million stories. Here's one about Cito and Homer Bush. Homer Bush wasn't all that, probably somewhere around Tapia level, but he had a good year in 1999.

 

Cito took over as hitting coach in 2000 and the team took a step back, Bush in particular. No one really noticed because Carlos Delgado was having a monster year, and the teams stats looked good by historical measure, but they were in fact below average.

 

One time I heard Cito on the radio talking about how he was helping Homer Bush, he said Homer was trying to walk to much and the old coaches had messed him up. This was crazy. Homer didn't walk at all, and he hit .320 under the old coaches but .220 under Gaston. I am sure it wasn't all Gaston's fault, however it was typical Cito, promoting himself and claiming he was helping a player, when he clearly wasn't.

 

Homer Bush is BABIP Case Study 1

 

BABIP, WAR in consecutive years

 

.510, 0.5

.374, 2.8

.266, -1.6

.360, 1.0

.274, -0.8

[Grant77]

Homer Bush is BABIP Case Study 1

 

BABIP, WAR in consecutive years

 

.510, 0.5

.374, 2.8

.266, -1.6

.360, 1.0

.274, -0.8

 

Cito controls BABIP of his players by telling them to pull the ball and being mean to them. I'll let Olerud explain the details.

[InsideThePark]

Montoyo was just showcasing Panik to get the Marlins to give Cimber to us for no good reason except they're cheap

[Terminator]

I have a strong feeling that Montoyo is going to screw up the lineup on a consistent basis by subbing Kirk out too often.

 

Steamer projects Kirk to be our 2nd best hitter this year with a 129 wRC+. This guy could be special and he really needs to be in the lineup everyday either as the DH or as the backup C. Instead, I have a feeling that we'll see Greg Bird and Reese McGuire in the lineup way too often.

[Jimcanuck]

I have a strong feeling that Montoyo is going to screw up the lineup on a consistent basis by subbing Kirk out too often.

 

Steamer projects Kirk to be our 2nd best hitter this year with a 129 wRC+. This guy could be special and he really needs to be in the lineup everyday either as the DH or as the backup C. Instead, I have a feeling that we'll see Greg Bird and Reese McGuire in the lineup way too often.

 

Yep, although McGuire will likely suck his way off the team

[WryNGinger]

Ken Giles arm does not approve of this extension.

[Terminator]

Yep, although McGuire will likely suck his way off the team

 

I think he's a solid backup C but he needs to go. Having a 3rd C on the roster negates the flexibility that Kirk provides as a capable DH and backup C.

 

Pair Kirk's flexibility with Biggio and Espinal's and we could even run a 3-man bench for large stretches, especially if we added Otto Lopez.

[Krylian]

Back-to-back World Series wins say otherwise.

 

You could've managed those teams to back to back World Series wins.

[Krylian]

I hear people say this. Why is this. Is it because of his actions and the way he managed, or the way he treats people away from the baseball diamond out in the general public.

 

He played the race card when someone in the media would question his moves.

[InsideThePark]

I think he's a solid backup C but he needs to go. Having a 3rd C on the roster negates the flexibility that Kirk provides as a capable DH and backup C.

 

Pair Kirk's flexibility with Biggio and Espinal's and we could even run a 3-man bench for large stretches, especially if we added Otto Lopez.

 

3 man bench no longer allowed. After May 1st when it goes back to a 26 man roster there's a 13 pitcher maximum which means 13 position player minimum or a 4 man bench. If we ditch McGuire I honestly can't think of a 4th guy I want around. They don't seem to want to DH Kirk if they don't have another catcher available for risk of losing the DH so if McGuire's presence gets Kirk more days at DH then I'm all for it.

[Jimcanuck]

3 man bench no longer allowed. After May 1st when it goes back to a 26 man roster there's a 13 pitcher maximum which means 13 position player minimum or a 4 man bench. If we ditch McGuire I honestly can't think of a 4th guy I want around. They don't seem to want to DH Kirk if they don't have another catcher available for risk of losing the DH so if McGuire's presence gets Kirk more days at DH then I'm all for it.

 

This will work itself out when Moreno hits his way onto the team. At that point, goodbye McGuire. And potentially Biggio also, for pitching help.

[Krylian]

This will work itself out when Moreno hits his way onto the team. At that point, goodbye McGuire. And potentially Biggio also, for pitching help.

 

Who's your 2B? Full time Espinal?