Official Spring Training 2021 GDT/discussion thread

[BlueRocky]

I really wonder how many of our top prospects make their MLB debuts this season. So to hard gauge them with the missed MILB season, but these guys haven't exactly been sitting around twiddling their thumbs either. Getting lots of work in at the Dunedin facilities against stiff competition and training their asses off too by the sounds of it.

 

Specifically guys like Martin, Groshans, SWR and Manoah.

 

It'll be interesting if guys like that make a push. There isn't too many turds left on the 40 man that you can't wait to see get punted.

 

A whole bunch of guys got called up last year, but haven’t established their role long term. I’m interested to see a couple arms get a shot in the rotation as a depth piece like Merryweather, Kay, and Hatch. Or whether Kirk will be the primary catcher/dh moving forward.

 

In terms to the guys you mentioned, it’s very difficult to see either Martin or Groshans in 2021 with neither having any extensive time in full season ball. Both of them would have to rake in double-A just to get a chance as a September call-up. I personally think Martin is the best third baseman in the farm (defensively + bat) and it’s not really close. Groshans has monster power but his hit tool and glove are still developing.

 

Manoah and Simeon doesn’t have any track record in double-A and they are most likely not getting fast tracked through the BP. The transition to double-A is often a difficult one for pitching prospects. I wouldn’t rule it out, but there would need to be some serious injury bug plaguing the pitching staff to go that far down the depth chart so we’d probably see Waguespack/Sopko types before them.

[Ray]

Healthy at last, Trent Thornton firmly in mix for Blue Jays pitching staff

 

Trent Thornton was pitching through stuff for a while. It’s not unusual. Every MLB pitcher takes the mound managing some level of discomfort, whether it’s a bit of labrum inflammation or a blister or a ligament fraying away. For Thornton, it was bone spurs, which floated around in his elbow and didn’t feel great, but weren’t bothersome enough to keep him off a mound.

 

That is until he threw this pitch to Brandon Lowe in his third — and ultimately final — start of 2020.

 

You can see it in how he carries his arm after the pitch. Thornton was already having trouble fully extending and flexing his arm coming into the start, but after that pitch one of the bone spurs caught and locked it at about a 65-degree angle. He forced the spur back out and regained enough mobility to finish the inning 14 pitches later; but his arm locked up again when he returned to the dugout, which is where Blue Jays pitching coach Pete Walker found him painfully trying to wrench the bone back into a more comfortable position.

 

“He was like, ‘Hey, man, enough’s enough. We've got to figure this out,’” Thornton remembers. “I've always had a little piece in my arm that never bothered me for a long time. And I guess over the years of wear and tear, it just got to the point where I couldn't pitch through it anymore.”

 

The Blue Jays called it inflammation at first, but within a week Thornton was off to be assessed by Dr. James Andrews, who isn’t someone you visit when you’re only experiencing inflammation. A couple days later, Andrews arthroscopically harvested four loose pieces of bone from Thornton’s elbow — two on the smaller side; two the size of molars — and handed them to Thornton’s mother in a little cup.

 

“They were just hindering my ability to do what I’m capable of. It affected my velocity; it affected all my pitches and how they broke,” Thornton says. “It affected pretty much everything.”

This January, when he finally got back on a mound at Toronto’s player development complex in Dunedin, Fla., Thornton learned what it feels like to pitch unencumbered. His curveball and slider came out with more consistent shape and a sharpness he hadn’t seen in years. His changeup, a pitch he’s struggled to command throughout his career, was landing at the bottom of the zone more than ever. It’s funny what a pitcher can make the baseball do with the ability to fully extend his arm.

 

As he worked through multiple bullpen sessions over the last several weeks, Thornton’s velocity and fastball life progressively increased. Walker’s has been watching closely, and will continue to when Thornton throws one of the first live bullpens of camp on Monday.

“He definitely feels a lot better than he did last year, which is great. Ball seems to be coming out nicely; he’s spinning the ball really well,” Walker said. “We’re very excited about the way he feels.”

 

Out of sight and out of mind since his surgery, Thornton’s oft overlooked in discussions about how the Blue Jays might construct their pitching staff to begin the season. But he’s firmly in the mix. It’s easy to forget he led the team in innings pitched two years ago, spinning a few gems and weathering a few shellings in an up-and-down season that ultimately produced a respectable 1.9 fWAR. No one’s calling him an ace; but there’s always need for production like that on a big-league staff.

 

Now more than ever. The Blue Jays — all teams, really — are trying to build as much pitching depth as possible before embarking on a 162-game season in which the club will need to cover a 170 per cent innings increase from 2020’s 60-game campaign. Every arm helps and Thornton’s track record of both starting and relieving makes his all the more valuable for a club expected to utilize its pitching staff creatively, thinking of its pitchers more as interchangeable out-getters with dynamic workloads than traditional six-inning starters and one-inning relievers. For as little as he’s talked about, there’s a strong possibility Thornton’s on the opening day roster in some capacity being asked to get those outs.

 

Given his injury history, Toronto’s need for innings, and the likely fluidity of the club’s pitching staff, it’s easy to envision Thornton having a season — health allowing — in which he’s deployed in a variety of roles, ultimately logging somewhere north of 100 innings but south of 150. He could serve as one-half of a tandem starting duo with a left-hander like Steven Matz or Robbie Ray. He could throw bulk innings behind a right-hander, too, if the Blue Jays like the matchup. He could be utilized as a late-game weapon, as he was when he closed games for North Carolina in college. Or, if circumstances allow, he could always fill the role he’s hoping to and start games.

 

“I'd prefer to be a starter. I think I have what it takes to get deeper into games — finally being healthy and being able to actually show what I can do this year,” he says. “But I’ve been a reliever before. I've been a closer. I did all of that stuff in college. It's not new territory for me. Ultimately, I want to pitch in the big leagues. So, whatever the team needs me to do in order to win, I'll be glad to do that. But, obviously, I'd much, much rather be a starting pitcher.”

 

These things tend to sort themselves out over time, and with six weeks until opening day there’s plenty of it. The focus now for Thornton in his sessions with Walker and bullpen coach Matt Buschmann is improving the feel for his secondary stuff, dialling in his command, and honing a repertoire that’s at times expanded to as many as a half-dozen pitches.

 

The last time we saw him pitch consistently in 2019, Thornton’s 93-m.p.h. four-seam fastball typically set everything up. But as the season wore on and the pitch started getting hit, he began leaning more heavily on a two-seamer, which was a touch softer but moved more vertically. A sweeping, 80-m.p.h. slider was his go-to secondary offering most often; but there was a series of starts late in the season in which he tightened the pitch and firmed it up into a cutter, playing it off his fastball at 88-m.p.h.

 

A low-80’s split-changeup began 2019 in his repertoire, was shelved in the lab mid-season, and returned late in the year — particularly against left-handed hitting — after Thornton learned a new grip from Clay Buchholz. A big, 74-m.p.h. curveball came-and-went, too, as Thornton tried it sparingly in a couple early season starts, abandoned it for three months, then brought it back in September.

 

It was a lot. Staying on top of six pitches isn’t the easiest thing to do; some pitchers struggle to maintain two. So, this year Thornton’s narrowing his focus. He’ll enter the season leaning on his four-seamer, cutter, curveball and changeup, keeping the sinker and slider in his back pocket only to be used in an emergency.

 

Thornton’s blessed with exceptionally-high natural spin on just about everything he throws — the spin rates on his fastball and curveball were each within the top-15 per cent of MLB pitchers in 2019. Now he’s trying to learn how to use it to his advantage, tunnelling complementary pitches off of one another in certain quadrants of the strike zone in an effort to generate swing-and-miss and put hitters away quicker. Working with that condensed repertoire, Thornton’s trying to do more with less.

 

“His stuff is certainly major-league calibre. It’s just about fine tuning a couple of things,” Walker says. “Minimizing the arsenal is important. And the way we approach right-handed and left- handed hitters is something we've been working on. Really looking forward to getting him out there and getting him back in games soon. And looking forward to seeing what Trent has to offer.”

 

There’s no denying his eagerness. Thornton blew up Walker’s phone all winter, texting him about different ideas, different grips, different attack plans he wants to execute this season. More than anything, Thornton just likes to pitch; and when he can’t, he likes to think about pitching. That’s why he suffered through the elbow discomfort as long as he did, whipping mid-90’s fastballs with fragments of bone rattling around in his elbow. He doesn’t know how to stop.

 

But last season’s surgery forced him to. And in the time he was gone, the competition for innings on Toronto’s pitching staff grew more crowded. That’s the game. It moves on with or without you. But after spending September anxiously watching his teammates compete in the post-season from afar — “there was times I caught myself screaming at the TV,” he says — Thornton can’t wait to get moving with it again.

 

“I love the competition,” he says. “There’s a ton of guys in this locker room that are very good pitchers. And that's the good part about this team — there’s so many guys that can help the team win.

 

“You just can't take anything for granted. That’s my mindset coming into spring training. Just having that little chip on your shoulder. You’re going to have to prove yourself every year.”

 

 

Source: https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/healthy-last-trent-thornton-firmly-mix-blue-jays-pitching-staff/

[Deadpool]

Healthy at last, Trent Thornton firmly in mix for Blue Jays pitching staff

 

 

 

 

Source: https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/healthy-last-trent-thornton-firmly-mix-blue-jays-pitching-staff/

 

Maybe "Having that little chip on your shoulder" isn't the best expression for a guy with a bone spurs history...

[G-Snarls]

 

2021 Springer Training has officially begun!!

[G-Snarls]

I've seen enough... welcome to the big league squad lol.

 

I see in that video he's proven he can hit major league underhand short distance soft toss

[G-Snarls]

How good of buddies are Springer and Correa?

 

Just wondering.

 

So many shortstops next year... (Story, Correa, Lindor, Baez, Semien, Simmons, Seager)

 

Do we get one of them or no?

 

Does Bo stick at SS forever?

 

Those guys can't all get massive contracts can they? There just aren't enough teams with the money and the need... Seems like supply/demand could help the Jays get one at a semi-reasonable price if they want)

[Laika]

So many shortstops next year... (Story, Correa, Lindor, Baez, Semien, Simmons, Seager)

 

Do we get one of them or no?

 

Does Bo stick at SS forever?

 

Those guys can't all get massive contracts can they? There just aren't enough teams with the money and the need... Seems like supply/demand could help the Jays get one at a semi-reasonable price if they want)

 

I do not think Toronto will be chasing any of them, at least not to play shortstop, unless Bo craters this season defensively.

 

They might be interested in retaining Semien long term to play 2B even if Bo secures SS.

 

Of course a lot can change this year.

[G-Snarls]

I do not think Toronto will be chasing any of them, at least not to play shortstop, unless Bo craters this season defensively.

 

They might be interested in retaining Semien long term to play 2B even if Bo secures SS.

 

Of course a lot can change this year.

 

I also wonder if Semien sort of expects to remain a third baseman at this point rather than competing with all those guys next year (some of whom are much better defenders at short)

[Laika]

I also wonder if Semien sort of expects to remain a third baseman at this point rather than competing with all those guys next year (some of whom are much better defenders at short)

 

Yeah when Semien came to terms with only being able to land a one year deal this offseason his camp may have looked at next year's SS crop and figured showing positional diversity in 2021 could be important as a way to stand out from the crowd and perhaps not compete directly with them.

[Eat My Shatkins]

So many shortstops next year... (Story, Correa, Lindor, Baez, Semien, Simmons, Seager)

 

Do we get one of them or no?

 

Does Bo stick at SS forever?

 

Those guys can't all get massive contracts can they? There just aren't enough teams with the money and the need... Seems like supply/demand could help the Jays get one at a semi-reasonable price if they want)

 

Yeah, Bo better be a damn good short stop long term to miss out on an opportunity to nab one of those guys. I would have never even considered Correa but then the Jays miraculously lured Springer in. He'd be my first pick, move Bo to second and then have Martin and Groshans battle it out for 3rd.

 

Not sure if Bo would be happy moving to 2nd. He should be though, in order to add a player like that and increase the teams chances at winning it all.

[Laika]

Yeah, Bo better be a damn good short stop long term to miss out on an opportunity to nab one of those guys. I would have never even considered Correa but then the Jays miraculously lured Springer in. He'd be my first pick, move Bo to second and then have Martin and Groshans battle it out for 3rd.

 

Not sure if Bo would be happy moving to 2nd. He should be though, in order to add a player like that and increase the teams chances at winning it all.

 

We'll see how much of that group even reaches FA. It might only be 2 of the elite guys. Toronto has a lot of infielders on the way with SS chops so I don't think they will be interested in backing up the truck for any of these guys.

 

Part of the justification in signing Springer was that the organization was very light on high end OF prospects. The same will not be true of the infield; there will be so many infielders comping up that some of the good ones are going to end up patrolling the outfield, actually.

[RobinThicc]

I mean they apparently were making offers for Lindor last offseason, so they've definitely wanted an upgrade there for a couple years.

 

Wanted Simmons at the deadline last year. Would have to think that Simmons would've played SS.

 

Idk if they really believe in Bo at SS. Or at least believe he can become an elite defender there. Which they may want at the shortstop position.

 

Bo definitely has something to prove this year.

[Laika]

I mean they apparently were making offers for Lindor last offseason, so they've definitely wanted an upgrade there for a couple years.

 

Wanted Simmons at the deadline last year. Would have to think that Simmons would've played SS.

 

Idk if they really believe in Bo at SS. Or at least believe he can become an elite defender there. Which they may want at the shortstop position.

 

Bo definitely has something to prove this year.

 

Not sure it makes any sense to read anything at all into Blue Jays rumours. They call everybody about everything.

[Brownie19]

Yeah, Bo better be a damn good short stop long term to miss out on an opportunity to nab one of those guys. I would have never even considered Correa but then the Jays miraculously lured Springer in. He'd be my first pick, move Bo to second and then have Martin and Groshans battle it out for 3rd.

 

Not sure if Bo would be happy moving to 2nd. He should be though, in order to add a player like that and increase the teams chances at winning it all.

 

Curious why Correa would be your first choice. You think he'll be the best value?

[G-Snarls]

Curious why Correa would be your first choice. You think he'll be the best value?

 

His injury history probably limits him in years signed vs what Story and Lindor will get

[Eat My Shatkins]

Curious why Correa would be your first choice. You think he'll be the best value?

 

He's the youngest in the group and in my opinion brings the best offense/defense combo. He'd also bring his championship experience with him too.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I'd be pretty excited if any of them signed with the Jays.

[jerb]

[Stangstag]

 

Still lookin thick. Although to be fair, Gurriel is probably one of the leanest/slimmest guys on the team so he looks worse in comparison.

[G-Snarls]

Still lookin thick. Although to be fair, Gurriel is probably one of the leanest/slimmest guys on the team so he looks worse in comparison.

 

Realistically, this is probably as svelte as Vlad ever gets and that's fine. His lower half in particular is always going to be thick.

 

Still a huge improvement compared to last year

[Olerud363]

Still lookin thick. Although to be fair, Gurriel is probably one of the leanest/slimmest guys on the team so he looks worse in comparison.

 

He looks like he did when he hit a walk off laser in Montreal then .400 in New Hampshire. 238 pound lighting cat Vlad.

 

Much improved on the 270+ tub of goo that showed up last year.

[Laika]

Yeah this is probably as trim as he can/will/should get. It's fine. Lots of pudgy sluggers exist.

[jerb]

[Jimcanuck]

So many shortstops next year... (Story, Correa, Lindor, Baez, Semien, Simmons, Seager)

 

Do we get one of them or no?

 

Does Bo stick at SS forever?

 

Those guys can't all get massive contracts can they? There just aren't enough teams with the money and the need... Seems like supply/demand could help the Jays get one at a semi-reasonable price if they want)

 

Hopefully none of them, maybe Semien. None of them means the current core has performed well this season and the focus next offseason will be signing at least a few of the current core players long term.

[Ray]

Nice article on Teoscar and his changes from last season that led to his breakout: https://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/blue-jays-hernandez-fully-transformed-approach-plate/

 

Mechanically, he lowered his hands and started to go with a toe tap instead of a more exaggerated leg kick which allowed him to time swings better. Plate approach wise, he started hunting strictly fastballs that were in his preferred part of the zone early on the season and started taking more breaking balls for strikes.

[G-Snarls]

Hopefully none of them, maybe Semien. None of them means the current core has performed well this season and the focus next offseason will be signing at least a few of the current core players long term.

 

And adding top tier starting pitching

[Ray]

 

I never really noticed it through the baseball jersey, but Springer is pretty built.

 

He was kind of lanky during his college days, but he's really bulked up since then it seems.

[Jimcanuck]

Springer keeps his hands up high, trend these days is to lower the hands shorten the path to the ball. Long as it works!

[Ray]

 

 

 

 

[Brownie19]

Semien (probably) "f*** me - this team actually has support staff, free soda in the clubhouse and the dugout doesn't smell like sewage - I love it here"

[Stangstag]

Semien (probably) "f*** me - this team actually has support staff, free soda in the clubhouse and the dugout doesn't smell like sewage - I love it here"

 

I don't need to bring money for the soda machine anymore?? Shiiiiiiit