General 2020 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[P2F]

Might be able to extend him for 2 years cheap and get him in '22 when we really need him.

 

Any talks of an extension just died on the mound at the Trop.

[Barkerfan23]

I've been watching this team for 25+ years and i can say one thing with Sureness

 

Jays will lose in Tampa

They will lose more than just a game

They will lose in a way that demoralizes us all

There will be freak occurances.

This is the way.

[Abomination]

Any talks of an extension just died on the mound at the Trop.

 

Why? A lot of pitchers take a 2 year deal while rehabbing TJS.

[Slade]

We're pretty damn unlucky when it comes to trade assets, it always ends up in the worst possible scenario.

[Hipfan]

Anyone else super tired of Vladdy grounding out every at bat? Bases loaded and he kills the rally with a DP. I thought this guy had an 80 hit tool! That was a pivotal moment in the game; he could have broke it open, but instead does what he always does. I don't care how hard he hits it if it's always a ground ball.

[philly30]

So next weekends games are here, who is the home team though?

[Bobthe4th]

[Olerud363]

Anyone else super tired of Vladdy grounding out every at bat? Bases loaded and he kills the rally with a DP. I thought this guy had an 80 hit tool! That was a pivotal moment in the game; he could have broke it open, but instead does what he always does. I don't care how hard he hits it if it's always a ground ball.

 

This was discussed at length all of last year. I have no clue what the solution is. His batted ball profile in the majors is horrible. And in this series the trends were even worse than last year.

 

I remember looking at his spray charts last year and the majority of the fly balls he did hit were to centerfield. He rarely pulled the ball in the air.

[Olerud363]

Anyone else super tired of Vladdy grounding out every at bat? Bases loaded and he kills the rally with a DP. I thought this guy had an 80 hit tool! That was a pivotal moment in the game; he could have broke it open, but instead does what he always does. I don't care how hard he hits it if it's always a ground ball.

 

What do you think they should do?? Obviously a mechanical adjustmant or change in approach could be needed. I am sure they've realized the trend. If you are the Blue Jays organization what steps do you take to fix it?

[Slade]

What do you think they should do?? Obviously a mechanical adjustmant or change in approach could be needed. I am sure they've realized the trend. If you are the Blue Jays organization what steps do you take to fix it?

 

Let him play a full season then assess what changes need to be made if he isn't performing.

[Hipfan]

What do you think they should do?? Obviously a mechanical adjustmant or change in approach could be needed. I am sure they've realized the trend. If you are the Blue Jays organization what steps do you take to fix it?

 

Trade him before his value plummets, and build around Bo, Pearson, Biggio Martin and whatever you get for Vladdy!

[Olerud363]

Trade him before his value plummets, and build around Bo, Pearson, Biggio Martin and whatever you get for Vladdy!

 

Why would another team want a 260 pound ground ball hitting DH who will have more double plays then home runs?? Unless they think eventually the mechanical flaw will be fixed, and the double play grounders will be launched into orbit instead.

 

If that is the case I would rather the Jays fix him and we get to watch him hit .330 with great power...

[Krylian]

I've been watching this team for 25+ years and i can say one thing with Sureness

 

Jays will lose in Tampa

They will lose more than just a game

They will lose in a way that demoralizes us all

There will be freak occurances.

This is the way.

 

 

You have spoken.

[Hipfan]

Why would another team want a 260 pound ground ball hitting DH who will have more double plays then home runs?? Unless they think eventually the mechanical flaw will be fixed, and the double play grounders will be launched into orbit instead.

 

If that is the case I would rather the Jays fix him and we get to watch him hit .330 with great power...

 

Well I was being being facetious; obviously he has tonnes (pun intended!) of potential and I hope he figures things out, but it's incredibly frustrating to see him hit. All the forecasts said he would hit at the major league level no problem, and yet here we are. I know he is young, and there's time for him to develop, but watching guys like Bo, Soto and Acuna makes it harder to patient with Vlad.

[BlueBaller]

Vladdy's biggest problem is he doesn't care. He's admitted to not working out, and to not preparing. Watch him on the bench... Other guys are taking notes, and he's busy chatting away.

[BlueRocky]

Well I was being being facetious; obviously he has tonnes (pun intended!) of potential and I hope he figures things out, but it's incredibly frustrating to see him hit. All the forecasts said he would hit at the major league level no problem, and yet here we are. I know he is young, and there's time for him to develop, but watching guys like Bo, Soto and Acuna makes it harder to patient with Vlad.

 

It's really early to put judgment down on Vlad. The talent is very special, in terms of what he demonstrated in the minors, his pedigree, and the raw power.

Yes it's frustrating to watch his growing pains, I totally understand you guys. It's part of the process of developing young players. But if he figures it out we're talking about a generational franchise player. You don't give up on that after just 126 MLB games, at the age of 21. It's very easy to overreact now and start pointing at his faults. That's just how the general public reacts, and it's possibly the best reason why you don't rush prospects up to the majors as fans fully expect immediate results and sour on guys if they don't produce. I don't blame you guys for acting this way, but patience is necessary for times like this.

 

I'm not even going to use the famous Mike Trout example, it's almost comparing apples to oranges.

 

There was a player that was touted as the #4 prospect by Baseball America's Top 100, he debuted as a 21-year-old, played only two games that season.

He proceeded his first season as a 22-year-old playing 43 games and hitting .215/.352/.438, OPS .790 and 101 wRC+. That's even worst than Vlad.

He struck out 28.9% and had -0.5 fWAR. Even his second season he only played 37 games hitting .165/.212/.297, OPS .509 and 26 wRC+ and -0.7 fWAR.

Utter disappointment for such a highly-touted prospect.

 

He switched positions from catcher to first base and two years after his debut, he finally got regular playing time as a 24-year-old and hit .270/.353/.490, OPS .843 and 111 wRC+ and 1.6 fWAR. He hit 25 home runs and 92 RBI. It was better but still a far cry from his top prospect status, especially now as a first baseman.

 

Most of you would DFA or trade his ass, as you are voicing for now. And this is after THREE SEASONS from his debut, let alone 1 season like Vlad Jr. You're voicing to give up on the guy and just get some value back when you can. He didn't immediately live up to his hype, in fact after 4 seasons he looks above average at best. It's certainly a bit disappointing.

 

Accumulated value for the first 4 seasons: 0.4 fWAR

 

Now, let's look at his next TEN SEASONS:

 

(25) .262/.350/.528, wRC+ 122, 1.8 fWAR, 30 HR

(26) .292/.385/.592, wRC+ 145, 5.7 fWAR, 38 HR

(27) .272/.377/.571, wRC+ 134, 3.6 fWAR, 44 HR

(28) .344/.470/.664, wRC+ 179, 7.4 fWAR, 41 HR <-- first time All-Star, finished 4th in AL MVP voting

(29) .279/.408/.540, wRC+ 143, 4.0 fWAR, 39 HR

(30) .277/.406/.549, wRC+ 145, 4.3 fWAR, 33 HR

(31) .302/.426/.593, wRC+ 159, 5.3 fWAR, 42 HR <-- second time All-Star, quite a travesty tbh.

(32) .269/.372/.535, wRC+ 126, 2.4 fWAR, 32 HR

(33) .301/.399/.582, wRC+ 152, 3.3 fWAR, 33 HR <-- finally changed teams

(34) .265/.361/.548, wRC+ 128, 2.8 fWAR, 38 HR <-- changed teams again

 

Finished career at 37 years old: 44.1 career fWAR.

 

He played for the Blue Jays for 12 seasons, was a 2 x All-Star, 3 x Silver Slugger, hit 473 home runs.

He is forever stapled to our level of excellence and his name is Carlos Delgado.

 

This is just one of many examples of guys with slow starts and why you shouldn't give up on young players.

Some of the most beloved players to put on a Blue Jays uniform didn't have a great start to their MLB careers, like Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion.

Roy Halladay was another example. Patience gets rewarded and the core of this rebuild is just starting to emerge.

Edited July 27, 2020 by BlueRocky

[Olerud363]

 

This is just one of many examples of guys with slow starts and why you shouldn't give up on young players.

Some of the most beloved players to put on a Blue Jays uniform didn't have a great start to their MLB careers, like Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion.

Roy Halladay was another example. Patience gets rewarded and the core of this rebuild is just starting to emerge.

 

The trade him talk is silly. However when do you send him down?? Delgado, Halladay, and EE were all sent down.

 

How does the service time work this year?? If 10 days from now he is still a ground ball machine you might have to act. Every day this year, is eating up 3 games of service time. Can you send him down in 2 weeks, keep him down most of the year and save a season?? What does he do with that time?? Go to Rochester and work on fitness and mechanics?

 

How would he react?? On one hand it's seems insulting to send a great prospect down after 2 weeks. On the other hand he doesn't deserve a year of service time for showing up out of shape and pounding grounders for 55 games in a freak season. On the other hand maybe he was in shape in March and the pandemic threw off his progress and you have to treat him with kid gloves.

 

It might be crazy and insulting to him to send him down. On the other hand Delgado, Halladay and EE all went through it, handled it professionally and came back stronger.

[Hipfan]

It's really early to put judgment down on Vlad. The talent is very special, in terms of what he demonstrated in the minors, his pedigree, and the raw power.

Yes it's frustrating to watch his growing pains, I totally understand you guys. It's part of the process of developing young players. But if he figures it out we're talking about a generational franchise player. You don't give up on that after just 126 MLB games, at the age of 21. It's very easy to overreact now and start pointing at his faults. That's just how the general public reacts, and it's possibly the best reason why you don't rush prospects up to the majors as fans fully expect immediate results and sour on guys if they don't produce. I don't blame you guys for acting this way, but patience is necessary for times like this.

 

I'm not even going to use the famous Mike Trout example, it's almost comparing apples to oranges.

 

There was a player that was touted as the #4 prospect by Baseball America's Top 100, he debuted as a 21-year-old, played only two games that season.

He proceeded his first season as a 22-year-old playing 43 games and hitting .215/.352/.438, OPS .790 and 101 wRC+. That's even worst than Vlad.

He struck out 28.9% and had -0.5 fWAR. Even his second season he only played 37 games hitting .165/.212/.297, OPS .509 and 26 wRC+ and -0.7 fWAR.

Utter disappointment for such a highly-touted prospect.

 

He switched positions from catcher to first base and two years after his debut, he finally got regular playing time as a 24-year-old and hit .270/.353/.490, OPS .843 and 111 wRC+ and 1.6 fWAR. He hit 25 home runs and 92 RBI. It was better but still a far cry from his top prospect status, especially now as a first baseman.

 

Most of you would DFA or trade his ass, as you are voicing for now. And this is after THREE SEASONS from his debut, let alone 1 season like Vlad Jr. You're voicing to give up on the guy and just get some value back when you can. He didn't immediately live up to his hype, in fact after 4 seasons he looks above average at best. It's certainly a bit disappointing.

 

Accumulated value for the first 4 seasons: 0.4 fWAR

 

Now, let's look at his next TEN SEASONS:

 

(25) .262/.350/.528, wRC+ 122, 1.8 fWAR, 30 HR

(26) .292/.385/.592, wRC+ 145, 5.7 fWAR, 38 HR

(27) .272/.377/.571, wRC+ 134, 3.6 fWAR, 44 HR

(28) .344/.470/.664, wRC+ 179, 7.4 fWAR, 41 HR <-- first time All-Star, finished 4th in AL MVP voting

(29) .279/.408/.540, wRC+ 143, 4.0 fWAR, 39 HR

(30) .277/.406/.549, wRC+ 145, 4.3 fWAR, 33 HR

(31) .302/.426/.593, wRC+ 159, 5.3 fWAR, 42 HR <-- second time All-Star, quite a travesty tbh.

(32) .269/.372/.535, wRC+ 126, 2.4 fWAR, 32 HR

(33) .301/.399/.582, wRC+ 152, 3.3 fWAR, 33 HR <-- finally changed teams

(34) .265/.361/.548, wRC+ 128, 2.8 fWAR, 38 HR <-- changed teams again

 

Finished career at 37 years old: 44.1 career fWAR.

 

He played for the Blue Jays for 12 seasons, was a 2 x All-Star, 3 x Silver Slugger, hit 473 home runs.

He is forever stapled to our level of excellence and his name is Carlos Delgado.

 

This is just one of many examples of guys with slow starts and why you shouldn't give up on young players.

Some of the most beloved players to put on a Blue Jays uniform didn't have a great start to their MLB careers, like Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion.

Roy Halladay was another example. Patience gets rewarded and the core of this rebuild is just starting to emerge.

 

Yes, that's all true, but Delgado wasn't as highly rated as a prospect (although he was seen as a top prospect) as Vladdy. And yes, we don't want to cut bait, nor am I advocating trading him after such a small sample, just really frustrated with his inability to do anything but hit the ball on the ground. He seems to be reaching for a lot of pitches outside the zone as well, and he was supposed to have a great eye at the plate; again, Bo seems to have a better eye which is surprising. It just seems that all the things Vladdy was supposed to be good at, he is struggling with, and struggling pretty badly. I get excited watching Bo, Biggio, & Gurriel jr., because they make things happen. Every time Vlad comes up I'm expecting a ground out. Just seems bizarre...

 

David Ortiz I think is an obvious comp for Vlad, due to his body size, ability to hit and lack of defence. The Twins cut him, and that was a huge blunder on their part. If Vlad can put it together and have a career that comes anywhere close to that, I think everyone would be happy.

[glory]

The only way to trade Vlad is to build a time machine and trade him two years ago for Yelich when that's what the Marlins wanted from the Jays before settling on the Brewers offer. Now all you do is put him at 1B/DH (which they did) and hope he turns into what he was hyped to be. Preferably before 2025.

[Olerud363]

Yes, that's all true, but Delgado wasn't as highly rated as a prospect (although he was seen as a top prospect) as Vladdy. And yes, we don't want to cut bait, nor am I advocating trading him after such a small sample, just really frustrated with his inability to do anything but hit the ball on the ground. He seems to be reaching for a lot of pitches outside the zone as well, and he was supposed to have a great eye at the plate; again, Bo seems to have a better eye which is surprising. It just seems that all the things Vladdy was supposed to be good at, he is struggling with, and struggling pretty badly. I get excited watching Bo, Biggio, & Gurriel jr., because they make things happen. Every time Vlad comes up I'm expecting a ground out. Just seems bizarre...

 

David Ortiz I think is an obvious comp for Vlad, due to his body size, ability to hit and lack of defence. The Twins cut him, and that was a huge blunder on their part. If Vlad can put it together and have a career that comes anywhere close to that, I think everyone would be happy.

 

Delgado was pretty hyped. His minor league performances were similar to Vlad's except 2 years older... though that is a huge difference.

 

There are often growing pains. And Vlad's growing pains really aren't that bad. I think people are worried about a nightmare scenario where the ground pall thing is like a weird case of the yips... like when guys all of a sudden can't throw to second, or a catcher can't throw back to the catcher. That it's a just a weird mechanical thing that no one can fix. A long way from that though.

[Bobthe4th]

Vlad hasn't had any reason to do more than the bare minimum for his entire life. It's not a bad thing if he hits a road bump early in his career. I'm pretty confident the adjustments will be made. It's just a matter of him having the urgency to actually change something because for all he knows, everything he's ever done has worked.

 

But if you tell a guy with an 80 hit tool to tweak his swing path a bit, I'm pretty sure he can do it. He just needs to struggle first to actually believe that he has to change something.

 

I mean they spent a year telling him if you want to stay at 3rd you need to get in better shape and he shows up to the new season fatter. I agree it’s far too early to get anywhere near writing him off, but the front office must be at least a little pissed off with him.

[Laika]

The rub here is that even with Vlad "struggling" the way he currently is he is still an above average hitter and a guy that can realistically hit .300 or hit .280 with 20+ homers. That's what groundball Vladdy can do. So it's not comparable to an actual prospect's struggles, if you think of guys who come up and strikeout 40% of the time or hit .200. It's not like you can demote him. It might be hard to really impress upon him that he needs a fundamental overhaul when there is no glaring failure going on.

[Daniel Labude]

Anyone notice Vlad's GB% was exactly the same last year as it was every year in the minors...

[5minutesforframing]

Anyone notice Vlad's GB% was exactly the same last year as it was every year in the minors...

 

Is that supposed to make things better?

[Krylian]

Is that supposed to make things better?

 

If true, shows that even with that GB rate he was able to put up insane numbers. But....this is MLB now.

[saskjayfan]

Shaw not in the lineup again. Is he hurt?

[Terminator]

[BlueRocky]

So Borucki and Font to the bullpen

[glory]

Montoyo probably made Giles throw 20 pitches this morning just to be sure his elbow is hurt.

 

Seriously though this is a huge loss to the pen. Romano looks good but the team will need more arms to turn into useful late inning guys.

[Orgfiller]

Wilmer Font pulling a Drury and being activated out of nowhere after being presumed dead.