Blue Jays trade deadline (over)reaction thread

[Krylian]

Still can't believe it... Derek Fisher... WOW... pretty much an absolute nothing return... the dude is basically 26 and hasn't done s***

 

It's not a great return at all...but it's not like Biagini had a load of value. Sanchez's value had completely gone to s***...and Stevenson was the Jays 25th ranked prospect or somewhere around there. We couldn't realistically have expected something without warts to be coming back. I'm hoping that Fisher is a change of scenery guy and he can re-find what made him a Top 100 guy a couple of years ago.

[Ray]

Not for nothing, but Derek Fisher has better numbers in the minors than Clint Frazier, and he can actually play the OF unlike Frazier.

[AintNoThang]

Did you see what the Braves gave up for Greene, who's been pretty dominant this year? Braves get him for this playoff run + next year.

 

You think Sanchez could be as good as Greene in the pen? Even if he does - you think he'll return more next year as a pure rental?

 

I actually do think Sanchez could be better than Greene. Greene is pitching way over his head at the moment. Fangraphs is predicting >4 in era and fip going forward. I believe that Wentz has just as much value as Fisher, or more. There's risks/rewards in both.

 

I can certainly see Sanchez getting a better return if he's dominant in the pen. But like I said, that's based on the fact that I don't view Fisher very highly. I think he's going to be another player who plays well in the minors and it doesn't translate in the majors.

[Grant77]

Sogard trade (6): We don't know the return, but dealing him to make room for Bo was the correct move.

 

Stroman trade (1): For all of the talk of a weak market, Trevor Bauer got a significant haul while we're left with an extremely weak return. Considering he has been better this season and makes less money, we should have expected a similar return for Stro. We haven't seen a top flight pitcher with control go for so little in a very long time. Of course it had to be us.

 

Phelps trade (3): Not a huge deal, but I thought that his option had some value. I would have kept him in our depleted bullpen and moved him next season.

 

Hudson trade (7): Get what you can for him, not a bad return.

 

Biagini/Sanchez trade (5): We gave up some serious value and control to get Fisher but he's got some serious talent so we'll see what happens. I could see this being a win win deal if Fisher breaks out. I have little doubt that those two will be excellent in Houston. Sanchez is one of the most talented pitchers in the league and they will know how to utilize him properly. I'll really miss Biagini and his personality.

 

Overall grade (3): if they had gotten a Bauer type return for Stro then we'd be looking at a successful deadline. They moved the right guys for solid, unspectacular returns, which is fine. Wasting our biggest trade chip in an unacceptably poor trade taints the overall grade.

[Stangstag]

They rid themselves of some pieces, got not a lot in return.

 

To be taken seriously, this front office will need to secure 2 aces in the next 2 years.

 

Who is the staff ace today? The guy you would run out there in a must win game?

 

Maybe they go out and sign that ace when the time is right. In Atkins interview today he talked a lot about the financial flexibility they will have. With the infield and outfield pretty much locked up that could leave a lot of money to acquire a legit ace.

[FrozenRopes]

Sogard trade (6): We don't know the return, but dealing him to make room for Bo was the correct move.

 

Stroman trade (1): For all of the talk of a weak market, Trevor Bauer got a significant haul while we're left with an extremely weak return. Considering he has been better this season and makes less money, we should have expected a similar return for Stro. We haven't seen a top flight pitcher with control go for so little in a very long time. Of course it had to be us.

 

Phelps trade (3): Not a huge deal, but I thought that his option had some value. I would have kept him in our depleted bullpen and moved him next season.

 

Hudson trade (7): Get what you can for him, not a bad return.

 

Biagini/Sanchez trade (5): We gave up some serious value and control to get Fisher but he's got some serious talent so we'll see what happens. I could see this being a win win deal if Fisher breaks out. I have little doubt that those two will be excellent in Houston. Sanchez is one of the most talented pitchers in the league and they will know how to utilize him properly. I'll really miss Biagini and his personality.

 

Overall grade (3): if they had gotten a Bauer type return for Stro then we'd be looking at a successful deadline. They moved the right guys for solid, unspectacular returns, which is fine. Wasting our biggest trade chip in an unacceptably poor trade taints the overall grade.

 

Overall I would go 4/10, but that should be a fireable offense given the chances this front office has had.

[Ray]

Maybe they go out and sign that ace when the time is right. In Atkins interview today he talked a lot about the financial flexibility they will have. With the infield and outfield pretty much locked up that could leave a lot of money to acquire a legit ace.

 

I really don’t get why people here are so worried about developing front of the line pitching. More often than not, it’s acquired, not developed. Verlander, Cole, Greinke, and Miley were all trades/FA’s.

[Bobthe4th]

As a couple of other people have said - OK so Atkins is higher than everyone else on Woods Richardson, Kay and Fisher.

 

But when negotiating surely you use that to get more value, not overpay (from the other side’s perspective)? Like the Astros appear to have done with the Sanchez trade - they think they can fix him but asked for a intriguing prospect as a throw in.

[jaysguy44]

I really don’t get why people here are so worried about developing front of the line pitching. More often than not, it’s acquired, not developed. Verlander, Cole, Greinke, and Miley were all trades/FA’s.

 

 

I agree with this.

 

We may not like the trades that Shatkins has completed, but on the plus side they seem to do very well with drafting and signing internationally which bodes well for potential trades in the future.

 

Also with a core of young pitchers in,

 

Pearson

Manoah

Woods-Richardson

Pardinho

Kay

Borucki

Reid-Folley

Kloffenstein

Williams

 

I'm not worried about our pitching long-term

[WryNGinger]

The only real issue I had with the trades is with the Stroman return. It seems like Atkins could have gotten the same deal if he had waited until the deadline so why didn't he? There is a significant chance the offer would have gotten better and little chance it would have disappeared or gotten worse. Should have waited...

[TheAkman]

So after all the comments from management about not know who could or should pitch when starters were going on the IL, they trade for a low average RF having already had a glut of of outfielders and so called super utility players , when in need of pitching?

 

I fail to see how trading away starters and getting position players make sense?

 

We will have to see how the haul from Stoman trade pans out.

[Stangstag]

The only real issue I had with the trades is with the Stroman return. It seems like Atkins could have gotten the same deal if he had waited until the deadline so why didn't he? There is a significant chance the offer would have gotten better and little chance it would have disappeared or gotten worse. Should have waited...

 

The only thing I can think of is that he didn’t want to risk any more problems with Stroman before the deadline. For example, if Stroman was asked to skip his Tuesday start because he was on the trade block i’m sure he would have flipped his s***.

[Spanky99]

Where's the option for f*** you Bob

 

lol

[Laika]

I find it incredibly refreshing how little Shapiro / Atkins care about "optics".

 

I've read some deadline complaints on here that literally say they wish Toronto had received one tiny little extra piece in these trades for "optics"!!!! lmao f*** off

[Frag]

Blech/10

[connorp]

I find it incredibly refreshing how little Shapiro / Atkins care about "optics".

 

I've read some deadline complaints on here that literally say they wish Toronto had received one tiny little extra piece in these trades for "optics"!!!! lmao f*** off

 

Of course you’d think that. You’re just looking at it from your narrow analytics scope. A baseball GM is in charge of building a baseball team (perhaps first and foremost) but also a brand. So like any business that scoff at their customer feedback as inconsequential, the end result usually isn’t good. I mean, not that it’s on the GM but the whole Toronto Bluejays baseball team as a whole is just the poster child of a wasted opportunity

[Barkerfan23]

I guess waking up this morning, you realize that it isn't important that Atkins sucks at trading, if he can draft his way and international sign his way into a championship ball club.

 

If I look at the ball club, Gurriel jr, Bichette, Biggio were all the current regimes drafting and international signings. We may soon have another top 10 prospect in Pearson. So there is that.

[Frag]

I guess waking up this morning, you realize that it isn't important that Atkins sucks at trading, if he can draft his way and international sign his way into a championship ball club.

 

If I look at the ball club, Gurriel jr, Bichette, Biggio were all the current regimes drafting and international signings. We may soon have another top 10 prospect in Pearson. So there is that.

 

To me, knowing how to negotiate your way to a reasonable return in a trade is important to filling your team's weak spots during times of contention (and fill up the farm during a rebuild). That window of contention is, obviously, not now, but his trades have been a mixed bag (at best). We won't know the true impact of these deadline trades until years from now, but I'm not impressed.

 

As for the poll, it's a 4/10 for me. Stroman trade was underwhelming, IMO, but at least I can get behind the SWR train. I'm not a fan of the asset management regarding Sanchez, trading him at his lowest point (I would have kept him on the team myself, given the return, but I'm no GM). The Sogard, Hudson, and Phelps trades are fine, given we initially got them for pennies on the dollar and sold them when their value was at its peak.

[EastCoaster]

These guys sure got fleeced in trades they made I don't buy their perception of the best possible return on the Stroman or the Sanchez, Biagini, and Stevenson deals. They've got no guarantees on the Stroman return which he was evaluated as a good mlb starter and a 4th outfielder caliber player for 2 mlb caliber pitchers and a prospect.

 

Seems like anyone who showed their future negotiation being problematic where dumped for practically nothing it's no secret that Stroman didn't agree with front end management. Sanchez has Scott Boras and he's known to be a tough negotiator and he not shy of letting organizations know the handling of his client especially if he feel they were mismanaged.

 

One has to question the Blue Jays medical staff Josh Donaldson criticized his handling of his injuries from these guys. Hard to believe it took almost 2 years to figure out Sanchez finger issues. If one didn't know any better you think these guys were hired by the workmen comp.

 

Just watch the Astro turn Sanchez into an ace type pitcher.

[JaysAllMighty]

Stroman trade was underwhelming

 

I'm sure his personality was not appealing to other front offices.

[Krylian]

Just watch the Astro turn Sanchez into an ace type pitcher.

 

The Jays had their chance to do that and couldn't. If the Stros can, god bless them.

[Todd Van Anus]

Should have kept Sanchez another year and hoe his trade value goes up. They also mismanaged Giles workload this season. Seems like Montoyo and Atkins never talk.

[Todd Van Anus]

And Atkins needs to take a course on making trades and negotiation skills 101.

[glory]

As a couple of other people have said - OK so Atkins is higher than everyone else on Woods Richardson, Kay and Fisher.

 

But when negotiating surely you use that to get more value, not overpay (from the other side’s perspective)? Like the Astros appear to have done with the Sanchez trade - they think they can fix him but asked for a intriguing prospect as a throw in.

 

Yeah that is the main issue with me. Not only about "optics" but also spreading the risk out a little bit more. It's fine that he specifically targets a player that is undervalued, but if he is consistently giving up more/getting less when acquiring those players, it's a sign of bad negotiating. Maybe he's just super confident in his own player development. I hope he's right.

[Bobthe4th]

Yeah that is the main issue with me. Not only about "optics" but also spreading the risk out a little bit more. It's fine that he specifically targets a player that is undervalued, but if he is consistently giving up more/getting less when acquiring those players, it's a sign of bad negotiating. Maybe he's just super confident in his own player development. I hope he's right.

 

Yeah I mean valuing players differently (as long as you're right) is great for drafts, but in trades if you think someone is worth more than anyone else does, then that should give you leverage to get what the seller & overall market thinks is a fair deal, but you think is an amazing deal. We've only done it half right - competitors think we're overvaluing our acquired assets.

[jaysguy44]

Should have kept Sanchez another year and hoe his trade value goes up. They also mismanaged Giles workload this season. Seems like Montoyo and Atkins never talk.

 

And next season if he's an absolute bum again, his value goes down even further.

 

Look, I know Fisher's numbers aren't sexy. But clearly this Front Office sees something in him, maybe he turns into a decent player. He definitely has some above average tools, let's see how it plays out.

 

I can see it already, that if we kept Sanchez. He would have some dumb blister issue again next season as an up and coming Free Agent and Jays fans would be up in arms that we didn't trade him the year prior.

[BigCecil]

Went into deadline still having confidence in FO. Was concerned about some of their decision making but gave them benefit of doubt Rogers made them hold on to JD etc. I’ve read all the posts and analysis on the deadline deals. No chicken little but I’m not as impressed as many for a lot of reasons. Seems to be a lot of convenient rationalization that would not be consistently applied to AA or others deals. The overall return and timing of their deals is underwhelming to me. Plus Ross Atkins face makes me want to punch it for some reason.

[Frag]

Went into deadline still having confidence in FO. Was concerned about some of their decision making but gave them benefit of doubt Rogers made them hold on to JD etc. I’ve read all the posts and analysis on the deadline deals. No chicken little but I’m not as impressed as many for a lot of reasons. Seems to be a lot of convenient rationalization that would not be consistently applied to AA or others deals. The overall return and timing of their deals is underwhelming to me. Plus Ross Atkins face makes me want to punch it for some reason.

 

It's frustrating seeing the folks defending these trades for reasons related to these moves being seen as the team's best possible solutions. It's like the logic goes: Atkins made good draft picks in the past; therefore, he's good at other areas when it comes to evaluating minor league/major league talent as well as managing a baseball team. Sure, his picks have been good, but from the trades he's made, he seems to be a pretty spotty negotiator (and a s***** communicator). Sanchez and, especially, Biagini had some control left, and neither NEEDED to be traded at the deadline. Stevenson did not need to be added to a trade for a soon-to-be 26 year-old 'prospect' who was promising 2 years ago. Stroman is a weird one, because I was underwhelmed by the return (I do like SWR, whose numbers seem similar to Pearson's at a younger age). However, his antics off the field leads me to believe that other teams were hesitant to take him on, which may have impacted his value (of course, hothead Bauer got a better return despite having somewhat similar numbers besides 2018, so what do I know?).

 

The hitting core looks pretty damn good, but it's going to be a challenge building a decent starting rotation that is good enough to contend in this division, even with prospects like Pearson and Manoah in the system. Overall, I don't trust this risk-averse ownership and management right now.

[Farm]

When analyzing negotiations, an important concept is the "best alternative to a negotiated agreement" (BATNA). In this case, if there was a trade without the Mets, the next best alternative would have been a trade with another team. Easiest point of comparison would be the Bauer trade IMO, and I might be biased but I think I actually prefer the return we got.

 

As a bad team trying to lose, selling a player with 1.5 years of control, the closer you get the deadline the less leverage there is. The difference between 1.5 years and 1 year of control is massive. If we were happy with Kay + SWR, I don't see how staying put would have been the correct move from a risk/reward standpoint. At the time there was serious concern that the Mets wanted to sell Syndergaard, which probably would have depressed prices?

 

Looking at all return on the other starting pitchers that were traded, I just can't see how the Stroman trade was poor.

 

1.5 years of control is tough. That's why I don't blame the Sanchez trade. And that's why if anybody is to blame for this trade deadline, it's the ****face Montoyo and him ****ing up Gile's ****ing elbow by playing him three ****ing days in a row. That really f***ed us over. Even worse, Giles is going to help us win some games too.

[AintNoThang]

I find it incredibly refreshing how little Shapiro / Atkins care about "optics".

 

I've read some deadline complaints on here that literally say they wish Toronto had received one tiny little extra piece in these trades for "optics"!!!! lmao f*** off

 

Au contraire, mon frere! Optics is huge when it comes to trades. Even within the industry. The Stroman trade was widely panned in MLB circles. Just because Shitkins put a higher value on the players coming back, he didn't need to negotiate based on those values. Neither is a top 100 propsect. If he was a great negotiator, and not getting a top current propsect, than go for quantity and get a couple more lotto tickets.

 

The Sanchez trade, many in baseball viewed Sanchez as being a potential elite reliever, and the Stros believe they can do a Morton type transformation. And many believe Fisher is a 4th outfielder. Again, Sanchez and Biagini should've been enough to get him, without throwing in Stevenson. Not like Stevenson is much of anything, bit he didn't need to get included and we should've gotten a Stevenson type back for including Biagini. It just shows to me that he's not a good negotiator and can bend when he doesn't need to bend.

 

If other teams get the idea they can squeeze more out of Shitkins, they will. If these 3 don't take a step forward, or even regresses, this deadline would be a massive failure. Without getting back top propsects at the moment, make it about quantity and spread out the risk.