We are in year 4 of the Shatkins era. How much time do you give them?

[Dick_Pole]

I will not be happy until I see a 1,000+ word essay from Olerud363 discussing the topic of "team soul" in depth and what that means for results on the field.

[Ray]

We'll have to see how they pan out, but I am a big fan of the drafts they've done so far. It's a nice balance between safer picks like a T.J. Zeuch, and high upside types like a Pearson, Bichette, Groshans etc.

 

For the most part, they've hit on almost every major trade. Converting JB Woodman into Trent Thornton was a gigantic win. Same with Conner Greene and Dominic Leone into an everyday player in Grichuk. They've done well with assets with limited value.

 

I do wish they were better at major league scouting. They've had successes on smaller scales with guys like Gaviglio, Biagini, Leone, Aledmys Diaz, etc, but the Yankees were able to add everyday players in Aaron Hicks, Luke Voit, and top of the rotation guys Jonathan Loaisiga, Domingo German for practically nothing, all within the last 3-4 seasons. Dodgers recognized the talent in Max Muncy and Chris Taylor. Most of those guys were just an adjustment away from being good, or just needed more playing time to thrive, and those teams recognized that. I get that they're trying to do that with guys in Drury, McKinney, Teoscar, Hanson, Brito etc., but it still feels like it could be better. Maybe it's just a matter of being patient with some guys.

[5ToolPhenom]

At least we had a team with a soul, look what we have now..

Now we start the year with both marcus and aaron pitching well, they leak into the media they are trade target, check their performances since then.

Even a rebulding team needs an identity. they removed all of that.

 

It does seem that there is definitely a lack of camaraderie on this team. That's likely a byproduct that occurs when you transition all of these prospects to a dumpster fire team, you have no identity.

 

I really wish Atkins would've supplemented this team with some experienced big-league talent who were signed for the long haul. It's hard to fathom why guys like Stroman and Smoak would embrace a mentorship role when they know they're on the move.

[5ToolPhenom]

WTF does this even mean?

 

To be fair, AA said in a recent interview that the biggest thing he's learned over the years as a GM is how important player character is.

[glory]

Shatkins clearly wants to build internally so their legacy will come down to how well they develop players. Their problem so far is that they sell at such a low leveraging position that the returns have not been very good. JD was traded when he was hurt and had like 3 weeks of service time remaining. Osuna was traded after a DV situation (though they did pretty well there considering the circumstances). Happ was traded with 2 months of control left for 2 players Cashman wanted to clear off the 40 man roster. That's three of the best assets they had from the 2016-17 teams and the returns were very disappointing as a whole. The other trades were marginal pieces like Pearce, Grandy, middle relievers, so that won't yield much back regardless.

 

What they get back for Stro, Sanchez, and Giles will be pretty damn important. If it's more 24-25 year old's who other teams want to take off their 40 man roster crunch, then this rebuild is going to take an eternity. Home run won't cut it, they need a walk off grand slam in these three trades. No doubters with bat flip included. If they end up with more McKinney's, then FML.

[Bobthe4th]

Shatkins clearly wants to build internally so their legacy will come down to how well they develop players. Their problem so far is that they sell at such a low leveraging position that the returns have not been very good. JD was traded when he was hurt and had like 3 weeks of service time remaining. Osuna was traded after a DV situation (though they did pretty well there considering the circumstances). Happ was traded with 2 months of control left for 2 players Cashman wanted to clear off the 40 man roster. That's three of the best assets they had from the 2016-17 teams and the returns were very disappointing as a whole. The other trades were marginal pieces like Pearce, Grandy, middle relievers, so that won't yield much back regardless.

 

What they get back for Stro, Sanchez, and Giles will be pretty damn important. If it's more 24-25 year old's who other teams want to take off their 40 man roster crunch, then this rebuild is going to take an eternity. Home run won't cut it, they need a walk off grand slam in these three trades. No doubters with bat flip included. If they end up with more McKinney's, then FML.

 

Those 3 trades:

 

JD - injuries destroyed his trade value, they took a risk hoping he’d return to the fully fit all star level and it backfired;

Osuna - considering the circumstances it was an excellent trade, Giles should also net a haul when he’s traded later this season;

Happ - agree that this one was disappointing.

[Brownie19]

Shatkins clearly wants to build internally so their legacy will come down to how well they develop players. Their problem so far is that they sell at such a low leveraging position that the returns have not been very good. JD was traded when he was hurt and had like 3 weeks of service time remaining. Osuna was traded after a DV situation (though they did pretty well there considering the circumstances). Happ was traded with 2 months of control left for 2 players Cashman wanted to clear off the 40 man roster. That's three of the best assets they had from the 2016-17 teams and the returns were very disappointing as a whole. The other trades were marginal pieces like Pearce, Grandy, middle relievers, so that won't yield much back regardless.

 

What they get back for Stro, Sanchez, and Giles will be pretty damn important. If it's more 24-25 year old's who other teams want to take off their 40 man roster crunch, then this rebuild is going to take an eternity. Home run won't cut it, they need a walk off grand slam in these three trades. No doubters with bat flip included. If they end up with more McKinney's, then FML.

 

They aren't going to get jack s*** for Sanchez.

[glory]

They aren't going to get jack s*** for Sanchez.

 

I don't know, I have some hope that a team out there will overrate him. Probably wishful thinking. My gut still tells me AA can't help himself and trades some excess mid level SP depth for him but AA post Toronto isn't trading prospects like candy anymore so who the hell knows at this point.

[DigitalRock]

To be fair, AA said in a recent interview that the biggest thing he's learned over the years as a GM is how important player character is.

 

Player character is Soul? How do you know or how can you qualify they don't have Character now versus when AA was here?

[Maine Jays]

Considering the fact AA traded Noah for a knuckleball 'ace', do you think he'd give up Kyle Wright for Stro-show?

[glory]

Maybe Touissant or Gohara would be available for Sanchez. They both come with huge risk (especially Gohara with his shoulder) but AA loves Sanchez and it's about time Shatkins takes a risk with high reward rather than more McKinney's and Thornton's.

[Brownie19]

Maybe Touissant or Gohara would be available for Sanchez. They both come with huge risk (especially Gohara with his shoulder) but AA loves Sanchez and it's about time Shatkins takes a risk with high reward rather than more McKinney's and Thornton's.

 

Your fantasy world must be spectacular.

[Spanky99]

Your fantasy world must be spectacular.

 

lol... I was going to say.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AYHdbnvRKdiWSf40UwfPj37Stm7mZKCorcZCZZzNhSY/edit#gid=672289150

[glory]

Your fantasy world must be spectacular.

 

Dude do you ever post anything other than a one liner that does nothing to further a discussion? Holy s*** you're obnoxious.

 

The Braves are not giving up Touki. That's all you have to say. I'm throwing it out there because he's doing poorly and I'm hoping AA still has some 2013-15 derp in him. If you disagree, that's cool, I won't lose any sleep over it. Let Ray argue your side man. He does a much better job.

[Todd Van Anus]

Jays need to be a .500 team next year. That is my expectation.

 

I also want to see Shatkins get good value for Stroman, Sanchez, and Giles.

[Brownie19]

Jays need to be a .500 team next year. That is my expectation.

 

I also want to see Shatkins get good value for Stroman, Sanchez, and Giles.

 

So you want them to unload Stro and Giles - and be a .500 team next year? That seems realistic...

[wk680]

So you want them to unload Stro and Giles - and be a .500 team next year? That seems realistic...

 

Yeah and with all the money that is already off the books and more coming off after this year (Martin and Morales), why not sign both these guys to extensions if you think you can be a playoff team in the next few seasons (which if they don't, we need new management). With the way this team is playing right now, I would be ready to clean house on the whole works of those 3 stooges. But I think in reality unloading Buntoyo and giving the two in the front office 1 more year (that would be year 5) would be the way to go. If they can't get anyone else, they could always bring Gibby back.

[Barkerfan23]

There is a possibility that Shatmins did not know today was a holiday in Canada

[wk680]

There is a possibility that Shatmins did not know today was a holiday in Canada

 

So this is their FOURTH season with the Jays. If they do not know about Victoria Day holiday by now, then they are clueless.

[Deadpool]

There is a possibility that Shatmins did not know today was a holiday in Canada

 

Just a random Monday day game to start a series, huh? That's a thing that happens all the time I bet.

[BlueRocky]

They aren't going to get jack s*** for Sanchez.

 

Based on right now, we’re literally getting pennies on the dollar in a Sanchez trade.

Even taking his performance out of the equation (and he hasn’t been spectacular), no contender wants to give up valuable assets for a guy that can’t keep his uniform on with biweekly blisters and fingernail issues.

There’s no question Sanchez would want to stay in the rotation to help his free agency chances in 2020, even though it’s probably the better option to sell him as a bullpen piece. He might not agree to do it.

 

If he can’t stay healthy until July, we might have to hold onto him. I can’t speculate if an offseason trade would happen, but the asset would continue to depreciate.

 

I just hope we won’t end up with nothing but a qualifying offer comp pick for Aaron as that would be another black mark on this regime. It might be out of their control but it doesn’t look good after missing on Donaldson.

[Brownie19]

Based on right now, we’re literally getting pennies on the dollar in a Sanchez trade.

Even taking his performance out of the equation (and he hasn’t been spectacular), no contender wants to give up valuable assets for a guy that can’t keep his uniform on with biweekly blisters and fingernail issues.

There’s no question Sanchez would want to stay in the rotation to help his free agency chances in 2020, even though it’s probably the better option to sell him as a bullpen piece. He might not agree to do it.

 

If he can’t stay healthy until July, we might have to hold onto him. I can’t speculate if an offseason trade would happen, but the asset would continue to depreciate.

 

I just hope we won’t end up with nothing but a qualifying offer comp pick for Aaron as that would be another black mark on this regime. It might be out of their control but it doesn’t look good after missing on Donaldson.

 

The thing with Sanchez is he was legitimately good in 2016 (ie, it wasn't like there were underlying numbers to suggest it was a fluke). The Jays would have had to known it was a complete mirage and sold him that offseason. I have a hard time blaming the FO for how this has played out.

[Dick_Pole]

Here is something I'd never thought I'd say:

 

I miss Paul Beeston.

 

Not the entire man, but elements of him. Under no circumstances would the franchise be intentionally embarrassed under his watch like this. Can the Jays get a President with the brain of Shapiro and the heart of Beeston please?

 

I've got no problem with the long term direction nor what they did prior to this offseason but 2019 is beyond embarrassing. Scott Boras is right, there has to be something in place to give non-playoff teams incentive to win.

 

f*** you Atkins. f*** you Shapiro. You just made me admit Paul Beeston and Scott Boras are human beings with redeemable qualities in the same post.

[Brownie19]

So this is their FOURTH season with the Jays. If they do not know about Victoria Day holiday by now, then they are clueless.

 

I think it's hilarious how upset people are getting over this - and quick they are to jump to conclusions on why it happened.

[Spanky99]

Based on right now, we’re literally getting pennies on the dollar in a Sanchez trade.

Even taking his performance out of the equation (and he hasn’t been spectacular), no contender wants to give up valuable assets for a guy that can’t keep his uniform on with biweekly blisters and fingernail issues.

There’s no question Sanchez would want to stay in the rotation to help his free agency chances in 2020, even though it’s probably the better option to sell him as a bullpen piece. He might not agree to do it.

 

If he can’t stay healthy until July, we might have to hold onto him. I can’t speculate if an offseason trade would happen, but the asset would continue to depreciate.

 

I just hope we won’t end up with nothing but a qualifying offer comp pick for Aaron as that would be another black mark on this regime. It might be out of their control but it doesn’t look good after missing on Donaldson.

 

He has zero say in how the Jays use him.

[wk680]

Here is something I'd never thought I'd say:

 

I miss Paul Beeston.

 

Not the entire man, but elements of him. Under no circumstances would the franchise be intentionally embarrassed under his watch like this. Can the Jays get a President with the brain of Shapiro and the heart of Beeston please?

 

I've got no problem with the long term direction nor what they did prior to this offseason but 2019 is beyond embarrassing. Scott Boras is right, there has to be something in place to give non-playoff teams incentive to win.

 

f*** you Atkins. f*** you Shapiro. You just made me admit Paul Beeston and Scott Boras are human beings with redeemable qualities in the same post.

 

YES I was thinking the same thing earlier about Boras and his criticism of the Jays. I hate that Ba**tard, but he is right about the Jays operating like a chic**sh*t small market team instead of the corporate money-bags backed large market team that they are. Shapiro is running out of my patience.

 

I think it's hilarious how upset people are getting over this - and quick they are to jump to conclusions on why it happened.

 

The other thing is how much difference could one position player make in a 12-2 loss. Regardless, they should of had the only 'star' in the lineup on a national holiday.

 

He has zero say in how the Jays use him.

 

Yes and I am ready to see Mr. Tender Fingers sent to the pen. Hopefully, the shorter outings will allow his right hand to stay 'viable' and the Jays are seriously in need of a bridge to Giles. Tepera seems to have regressed, and you can't trust Biagini and the rest. I am interested to see what Phelps looks like if/when he hits the scene

Edited May 21, 2019 by wk680

[jmomcc]

I don't give a f*** if we are 'embarrassed'. That doesn't even mean anything. We win 100 games two years from now and literally no one will ever remember this.

 

There are two kinds of sports fans. I'll watch most games and I just will never stop watching. My wife will pay attention when we are good. So, how the f*** is this 'embarrassment' going to affect anything? No one's mind will be changed by this.

[Grant77]

I don't give a f*** if we are 'embarrassed'. That doesn't even mean anything. We win 100 games two years from now and literally no one will ever remember this.

 

There are two kinds of sports fans. I'll watch most games and I just will never stop watching. My wife will pay attention when we are good. So, how the f*** is this 'embarrassment' going to affect anything? No one's mind will be changed by this.

 

It means a lot because it makes me miserable when the Jays lose. Winning should always be the number 1 goal in baseball more than any other sport because of the volatile draft.

[leaffie]

Being embarrassed does mean something. It means the next time those "casual" fans as everyone calls them, decide whether they will spend their money to see a game they will remember the beat downs that have been going on this season. Losing is one thing, being trounced constantly is another. A major league team can not survive on the attendance figures they are posting right now. And for the jays to win 100 games two years from now, will be the miracle of all miracles.

[Bobthe4th]

Being embarrassed does mean something. It means the next time those "casual" fans as everyone calls them, decide whether they will spend their money to see a game they will remember the beat downs that have been going on this season. Losing is one thing, being trounced constantly is another. A major league team can not survive on the attendance figures they are posting right now. And for the jays to win 100 games two years from now, will be the miracle of all miracles.

 

We aren’t even in the bottom 10 of average attendance this year.