Matt Shoemaker Out for season

[tafkasg]

Sweet f***ing s***, ofc.

[Krylian]

Unless the 1st pick is a potential generational consensus #1 pick, which is virtually never the case in case in baseball, gaining 1 spot isnt something to really be all that happy about. Doubly so given the idiotic nature of bonus pools and how great players are available throughout the first few rounds

 

That said, having more pool money is a huge deal in drafts. Take what Houston did a few years ago with Carlos Correa. Took him 1st overall...signed him for well under slot and then used the savings to snap up a couple of other high end prospects. Now, yes, moving up 1 spot isn't going to get you a huge bump in pool money. I'm just talking strategy right now.

 

As for Shoemaker...I would've loved for him to continue his stellar pitching so we could move him at the deadline for something of value. He's on the wrong side of 30 so I don't see him being a factor once we're ready to contend again.

[Krylian]

Is there a Bryce Harper in this draft that's worth tanking for? And even then Harper wasn't even the best player in his own draft.

 

No idea who the big fish for 2020 is right now.

[WryNGinger]

He seemed like a guy who was easy to root for. Horrible news when someone has had bad luck, works hard and starts to rebound and has bad luck again.

[thatoneguy]

Firstly, a bus crash would almost guarantee the first overall pick.

 

Secondly, I loved what Shoemaker was doing. Him getting injured is not good at all...but if you're gonna put a silver lining on it, a better draft pick is basically the only positive spin on this.

 

You really are kind of a shitheap.

[Krylian]

You really are kind of a shitheap.

 

Grow up

[TheHurl]

No idea who the big fish for 2020 is right now.

 

Torkelson has been on a tear since Pac 10 play started. He's still likely the top one.

[Bobthe4th]

Bring me Dallas Keuchel

 

With how conservative Shatkins is, if we sign anyone it'll be Gio Gonzalez.

[flafson]

Bummer, I was counting on him having a breakout year and then we trade him for a good package in the deadline.

[EastCoaster]

Rookie mistake you never force a runner to an advancing base you always force the runner back to his original base. Tellez should thrown the ball to Sogard right away for him to force back to first and should've stood his ground at first , Instead when he ran toward second then he ended up in no man land and stood there watching allowing Shoemaker in the rundown and the rest is history. You should never get your pitcher involved in a rundown no matter what it's too risky and the Blue Jays paid a steep price for rookie mistake. That's baseball fundamentals taught back in the little leagues. I'm sure the Blue Jays would've rather have a stolen base that losing Shoemaker for the season.

[tbad]

Especially tasteless thing to "celebrate" coming after an unfortunate injury to a guy in his 30's where there is always a chance that was his last MLB game.

 

Who the f*** is celebrating?

[Brownie19]

Rookie mistake you never force a runner to an advancing base you always force the runner back to his original base. Tellez should thrown the ball to Sogard right away for him to force back to first and should've stood his ground at first , Instead when he ran toward second then he ended up in no man land and stood there watching allowing Shoemaker in the rundown and the rest is history. You should never get your pitcher involved in a rundown no matter what it's too risky and the Blue Jays paid a steep price for rookie mistake. That's baseball fundamentals taught back in the little leagues. I'm sure the Blue Jays would've rather have a stolen base that losing Shoemaker for the season.

 

We should probably bring pitchers in from the bullpen on a cart too.

[Carlos Danger]

We should probably bring pitchers in from the bullpen on a cart too.

 

I think his point is, and I agree, is that there has been some serious lack of basic fundamentals displayed so far.

 

Regardless if the pitcher got hurt or not, and I am a HUGE Tellez fan, the OP is right.

 

Not only has the lack of fundamentals cost us bases, runs etc, it contributed to an injury and IMO almost two more in near miss OF/IF collisions.

[Brownie19]

I think his point is, and I agree, is that there has been some serious lack of basic fundamentals displayed so far.

 

Regardless if the pitcher got hurt or not, and I am a HUGE Tellez fan, the OP is right.

 

Not only has the lack of fundamentals cost us bases, runs etc, it contributed to an injury and IMO almost two more in near miss OF/IF collisions.

 

And the obvious point is that it was a freak injury that could have happened to anyone of our players involved in the rundown. Do you want Vladdy to get involved in a rundown? I mean he's fat as f*** and he could get hurt - don't go near a rundown Vladdy! Christ he's 1000 times more important than some journeyman we picked up off the scrap heap.

 

The fact that yes, in this case, it just happened to be a pitcher allows people to jump up on their soapbox and say "see - this is why pitchers shouldn't be in rundowns" like running, stopping and tagging shouldn't be things they are allowed to do. If this happened while he was fielding a bunt, or covering 1st base - nobody would bat an eye at it.

 

And the fundamental talk is just so tiring - "Kids these days don't put enough emphasis on the little things that win ball games"...like we want kids throughout the system working endlessly on their bunting and pickle techniques. Players these days actually have to spend time working out or keep up with the talent level at the bigs - unlike in the 1970's and 1980's.

[Carlos Danger]

And the obvious point is that it was a freak injury that could have happened to anyone of our players involved in the rundown. Do you want Vladdy to get involved in a rundown? I mean he's fat as f*** and he could get hurt - don't go near a rundown Vladdy! Christ he's 1000 times more important than some journeyman we picked up off the scrap heap.

 

The fact that yes, in this case, it just happened to be a pitcher allows people to jump up on their soapbox and say "see - this is why pitchers shouldn't be in rundowns" like running, stopping and tagging shouldn't be things they are allowed to do. If this happened while he was fielding a bunt, or covering 1st base - nobody would bat an eye at it.

 

And the fundamental talk is just so tiring - "Kids these days don't put enough emphasis on the little things that win ball games"...like we want kids throughout the system working endlessly on their bunting and pickle techniques. Players these days actually have to spend time working out or keep up with the talent level at the bigs - unlike in the 1970's and 1980's.

 

Dude, I think you are letting your distaste for old school and bunting cloud your objectivity. Fundamentals are just as important now as they were in 1955.. The good teams of today’s error do do fundamentals well.

 

Look at Teo cutting in front of the CF, causing the runner to advance into scoring position and it was an error. Doesn't what matter what year it is, that is bad baseball.

 

The guys here heavy into analytics talk about never giving an out away and over time we will score more runs doing it new school vice old school.

 

Not doing the fundamentals on D or on the base-paths/ABs will cost us way more runs one way or another over the course of 162/playoffs.

[FrozenRopes]

Go get Dallas...

[glory]

Who the f*** is celebrating?

 

I think he's referring to Krylian saying "Best not bring it up but celebrate in private."

 

Either way tanking in baseball is stupid. In the case of the Jays, they are playing a bunch of young players, with even more on the way (Vlad, Biggio, Alford, etc). You want them to win as many games as possible so that it shows the young players are actually good.

[Krylian]

I think he's referring to Krylian saying "Best not bring it up but celebrate in private."

 

Either way tanking in baseball is stupid. In the case of the Jays, they are playing a bunch of young players, with even more on the way (Vlad, Biggio, Alford, etc). You want them to win as many games as possible so that it shows the young players are actually good.

 

I'm not happy or celebrating that Shoemaker got hurt. That's a potentially valuable trade chip that we no longer have.

 

As for my quote...that was a general statement towards one's beliefs on the tanking strategy. Some believe in it...some don't...it's a very polarizing topic. Best to believe what you're gonna believe, and not really try to make your case here...those on the other side of your argument won't be convinced otherwise.

[tbad]

I think he's referring to Krylian saying "Best not bring it up but celebrate in private."

 

Either way tanking in baseball is stupid. In the case of the Jays, they are playing a bunch of young players, with even more on the way (Vlad, Biggio, Alford, etc). You want them to win as many games as possible so that it shows the young players are actually good.

 

Anyway my comment was tongue-in-cheek... people decided to target it, that's fine.

[Brownie19]

Dude, I think you are letting your distaste for old school and bunting cloud your objectivity. Fundamentals are just as important now as they were in 1955.. The good teams of today’s error do do fundamentals well.

 

Look at Teo cutting in front of the CF, causing the runner to advance into scoring position and it was an error. Doesn't what matter what year it is, that is bad baseball.

 

The guys here heavy into analytics talk about never giving an out away and over time we will score more runs doing it new school vice old school.

 

Not doing the fundamentals on D or on the base-paths/ABs will cost us way more runs one way or another over the course of 162/playoffs.

 

Teo is awful defensively. There were s***** defensive players in 1955 and I'm sure if you go back and watch tape, you'll see players making fundamentally s***** plays too. The argument is that every time someone makes a poor fundamental play - someone gets on their soap box and says "players don't have a good fundamentals these days". The same people think the new generation is going to destroy the business environment and the world is going to end.

[glory]

Tanking because you are absolutely devoid of talent is one thing, but tanking when you have a roster full of young players that the front office believes in plus a lot more on the way seems counter productive. If the team wins 77-82 games this season, that means the young players are better than anticipated. I think you take that over finishing with 68 wins and every young player on the team being s***, even if it results in a top 5 pick. This isn't the NBA. A #1 pick in the NBA could turn a bad team into a great team over night depending on who is there. Baseball works a lot differently.

 

As far as the rotation, Keuchel on a one year deal would be sweet if he's willing to do it. But I can't see Shatkins giving up a draft pick for him. More likely we are staring at the possibility of Gio Gonzalez making the roster.

[Maico450]

Tanking because you are absolutely devoid of talent is one thing, but tanking when you have a roster full of young players that the front office believes in plus a lot more on the way seems counter productive. If the team wins 77-82 games this season, that means the young players are better than anticipated. I think you take that over finishing with 68 wins and every young player on the team being s***, even if it results in a top 5 pick. This isn't the NBA. A #1 pick in the NBA could turn a bad team into a great team over night depending on who is there. Baseball works a lot differently.

 

As far as the rotation, Keuchel on a one year deal would be sweet if he's willing to do it. But I can't see Shatkins giving up a draft pick for him. More likely we are staring at the possibility of Gio Gonzalez making the roster.

 

Gonzalez makes sense if the Yanks don't keep him. More depth is needed ASAP.

[Krylian]

Tanking because you are absolutely devoid of talent is one thing, but tanking when you have a roster full of young players that the front office believes in plus a lot more on the way seems counter productive. If the team wins 77-82 games this season, that means the young players are better than anticipated. I think you take that over finishing with 68 wins and every young player on the team being s***, even if it results in a top 5 pick. This isn't the NBA. A #1 pick in the NBA could turn a bad team into a great team over night depending on who is there. Baseball works a lot differently.

 

As far as the rotation, Keuchel on a one year deal would be sweet if he's willing to do it. But I can't see Shatkins giving up a draft pick for him. More likely we are staring at the possibility of Gio Gonzalez making the roster.

 

I agree with that.

[L54]

And the obvious point is that it was a freak injury that could have happened to anyone of our players involved in the rundown. Do you want Vladdy to get involved in a rundown? I mean he's fat as f*** and he could get hurt - don't go near a rundown Vladdy! Christ he's 1000 times more important than some journeyman we picked up off the scrap heap.

 

The fact that yes, in this case, it just happened to be a pitcher allows people to jump up on their soapbox and say "see - this is why pitchers shouldn't be in rundowns" like running, stopping and tagging shouldn't be things they are allowed to do. If this happened while he was fielding a bunt, or covering 1st base - nobody would bat an eye at it.

 

And the fundamental talk is just so tiring - "Kids these days don't put enough emphasis on the little things that win ball games"...like we want kids throughout the system working endlessly on their bunting and pickle techniques. Players these days actually have to spend time working out or keep up with the talent level at the bigs - unlike in the 1970's and 1980's.

 

You're aware there is a lot more to the fundamental understanding of the game than bunting and run downs right?

[L54]

Teo is awful defensively. There were s***** defensive players in 1955 and I'm sure if you go back and watch tape, you'll see players making fundamentally s***** plays too. The argument is that every time someone makes a poor fundamental play - someone gets on their soap box and says "players don't have a good fundamentals these days". The same people think the new generation is going to destroy the business environment and the world is going to end.

 

Does this really happen? Every time someone makes a fundamental mistake Twitter becomes filled with tweets about fundamentals? Or is this a dramatic hot take based on nothing essentially?

[Brownie19]

You're aware there is a lot more to the fundamental understanding of the game than bunting and run downs right?

 

yes I'm aware - thanks. In this case, I cited rundowns because that was literally the fundamental being blamed for Shoemaker's injury. I also added bunts as that's probably fundamental that draws the most number of complaints.

[Brownie19]

Does this really happen? Every time someone makes a fundamental mistake Twitter becomes filled with tweets about fundamentals? Or is this a dramatic hot take based on nothing essentially?

 

Sorry - you're correct. I shouldn't have said "every time" - perhaps it just feels that way as broadcasters love to harp on the current generation and their lack of fundamentals when someone doesn't get a bunt down - or while discussing why players don't consistently just beat the shift, or why teams don't hit and run.

 

I don't twitter, sorry. I don't know that universe does when poor fundamentals are seen during a baseball game.

[L54]

Sorry - you're correct. I shouldn't have said "every time" - perhaps it just feels that way as broadcasters love to harp on the current generation and their lack of fundamentals when someone doesn't get a bunt down - or while discussing why players don't consistently just beat the shift, or why teams don't hit and run.

 

I don't twitter, sorry. I don't know that universe does when poor fundamentals are seen during a baseball game.

 

I think it's a lack of preparation, both mentally and physically, a lack of desire, and a lack of focus when guys don't get bunts down.

 

Nobody expects players to consistently beat the shift. But if you can't go the other way then f*** you, that's not my problem. Have fun hitting into the shift your entire career.

 

You don't think big league managers cringe when guys make fundamental mistakes? If Kevin Cash wants you to get the bunt down, you better get the bunt down. If Terry Francona puts on a hit and run, you better put that ball in play, and preferably to the right side.

 

Wouldn't baseball be fun if we just played it on a computer and simulated all the games?! Now THAT's a sport

[Brownie19]

I think it's a lack of preparation, both mentally and physically, a lack of desire, and a lack of focus when guys don't get bunts down.

 

Nobody expects players to consistently beat the shift. But if you can't go the other way then f*** you, that's not my problem. Have fun hitting into the shift your entire career.

 

You don't think big league managers cringe when guys make fundamental mistakes? If Kevin Cash wants you to get the bunt down, you better get the bunt down. If Terry Francona puts on a hit and run, you better put that ball in play, and preferably to the right side.

 

Wouldn't baseball be fun if we just played it on a computer and simulated all the games?! Now THAT's a sport

 

You're missing my point. Do we even know if the execution of the "fundamentals" has declined over the years? I mean maybe it is in some areas, but not in others? If you went back and looked at the 1980's era, would you see the vast majority of rundowns being executed in the manner suggested by the OP? Would we see a substantial decline in # of successful rundowns in the 2010's? I wouldn't expect it to be honest, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

Perhaps teams simply don't want players spending a s*** ton of time to master the art of bunting because that's simply not a prioritized skill in today's game? Maybe the fundamental execution of other in game scenarios has increased? Maybe we make that bare handed throw from 3rd to 1st better than we ever did, or we cut off more balls in the gap, or scoop the ball in the dirt at 1st more, or catchers block a higher % of balls in the dirt. Maybe teams have prioritized other aspects of the game which are deemed more relevant and important in 'today's game' over things like bunting or slapping the ball the other way. It just seems like people fall into the "old man yells at clouds" crowd when a player fails to execute one of the aspects of baseball that 'used' to be a lot more common.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Brownie19

[tbad]

Is it fair to say this thread has officially derailed?