Charlie Montoyo Egregious Mistake Tracking Thread

[5ToolPhenom]

Come on man, anyone would've have won with a roster like those.

[Captain Adama]

Yeah I know you guys on here have a hate on for Gaston, but you can't just say the Jays won those 2 championships in spite of him, or whatever the argument is. Winning is not just about having a good team on paper.

 

I repeat my question, what did Bobby Cox do that made him so superior to Gaston as a manager?

 

ETA: it was over 25 years ago, SO you can not judge how he managed the team then by the way the game is played today

 

Yes you can.

[wk680]

Come on man, anyone would've have won with a roster like those.

 

that's the 'conventional wisdom' around here BUT the same could be said for a lot of teams that instead underperformed expectations. for example, just how was it the A's juggernaut of late '80s-early '90s only won 1 WS? I would never s*** on a manager who has a record of winning championships, because it is so hard to win just 1. was Gaston just lucky - I don't think so, but sure helped to have Gillick behind the scenes at the top of his game

[wk680]

Yes you can.

 

Sure you can say that (I stand corrected), but what EXACTLY is your rationale for that and are you saying essentially that it really doesn't matter who is the manager?

[5ToolPhenom]

that's the 'conventional wisdom' around here BUT the same could be said for a lot of teams that instead underperformed expectations. for example, just how was it the A's juggernaut of late '80s-early '90s only won 1 WS? I would never s*** on a manager who has a record of winning championships, because it is so hard to win just 1. was Gaston just lucky - I don't think so, but sure helped to have Gillick behind the scenes at the top of his game

 

It's a hard thing to quantify, so you never know. As good as the A's were, the Jays had much more consistent hitters. I remember guys like Canseco going ice cold during one of those A's playoff runs. I recall injuries playing a factor as well.

 

The manager role is a hard thing to quantify, so it's basically an exercise in futility trying to do so. But as I recall, Cito wasn't known for much in game strategy. He had the set batting order, vets would player every day and he'd just sit back. I suppose not over-managing is a good trait, but I'm definitely one who thinks that Cito is a little overrated, at least when it comes to Canadian baseball fans.

[wk680]

It's a hard thing to quantify, so you never know. As good as the A's were, the Jays had much more consistent hitters. I remember guys like Canseco going ice cold during one of those A's playoff runs. I recall injuries playing a factor as well.

 

The manager role is a hard thing to quantify, so it's basically an exercise in futility trying to do so. But as I recall, Cito wasn't known for much in game strategy. He had the set batting order, vets would player every day and he'd just sit back. I suppose not over-managing is a good trait, but I'm definitely one who thinks that Cito is a little overrated, at least when it comes to Canadian baseball fans.

 

yeah nice summary.... but 2 WS championships still speak volumes. It's almost like trying to poke holes in Bruce Bochy because he hasn't won since 2014

[Ex Player]

Pitching Biagini in the 9th makes absolutely no sense. You might as well let Maile pitch 1 1/3 innings

[tbad]

Dumb fans need to vent because team is so bad, need a single person to blame... insert manager.

 

Loses that Montoyo has been responsible for:

[wk680]

Dumb fans need to vent because team is so bad, need a single person to blame... insert manager.

 

Loses that Montoyo has been responsible for:

 

I don't see too much scapegoating of Montoyo going on here. The main issue that he has been roasted over is the excessive sac-bunting. Other than that maybe some instances of being too quick on the trigger pinch running, and other minor issues.

Edited May 26, 2019 by wk680

[Boxcar]

Yeah I know you guys on here have a hate on for Gaston, but you can't just say the Jays won those 2 championships in spite of him, or whatever the argument is. Winning is not just about having a good team on paper.

 

I repeat my question, what did Bobby Cox do that made him so superior to Gaston as a manager?

 

ETA: it was over 25 years ago, SO you can not judge how he managed the team then by the way the game is played today

 

Winning is literally about having a good team on paper

[Boxcar]

yeah nice summary.... but 2 WS championships still speak volumes. It's almost like trying to poke holes in Bruce Bochy because he hasn't won since 2014

 

How about Citi being the reason that John Olerud and Shawn Green wanted out of the org? Also, explain to me why he didn't dare so well in his second go around?

[FrozenRopes]

How about Citi being the reason that John Olerud and Shawn Green wanted out of the org? Also, explain to me why he didn't dare so well in his second go around?

 

A manager is only as good as his bad decisions. The more he makes, the less likely the team can outplay them.

 

Montoyo has made some bad decisions that cannot be outplayed by this team. With the age of this group I would have hired someone a little better pedigree.

[DigitalRock]

I am starting to think Montoyo is in over his head....young team needs a lot of guidance, and t keep them focused.

[Ex Player]

I am starting to think Montoyo is in over his head....young team needs a lot of guidance, and t keep them focused

The problem is he has zero managing experience. Jays took a gamble on that

[Ex Player]

At what point should we start pointing fingers at Guillermo Martínez, who also has zero experience as batting coach??

[Laika]

Hey mans - the players just suck. That's it!

[FrozenRopes]

At what point should we start pointing fingers at Guillermo Martínez, who also has zero experience as batting coach??

 

Hitting coach is one of the most overrated positions in baseball. It's more of a hope that they don't mess up a guys swing than actually fixing it. Plus putting in video time and exercises.

[L54]

At what point should we start pointing fingers at Guillermo Martínez, who also has zero experience as batting coach??

 

Two months of a hitting coach working with AAAA players and people are pissed he hasn’t turned them into the Astros

[Ex Player]

Two months of a hitting coach working with AAAA players and people are pissed he hasn’t turned them into the Astros

AAAA?? Is that one level above Triple A??

[P2F]

AAAA?? Is that one level above Triple A??

 

You've never seen the term before? It's used for players that mash AAA but can't hack at it the MLB level for whatever reasons.

 

See: Brandon Wood, A.J. Reed, and Travis Snider.

[BlueRocky]

You've never seen the term before? It's used for players that mash AAA but can't hack at it the MLB level for whatever reasons.

 

See: Brandon Wood, A.J. Reed, and Travis Snider.

 

Socrates Brito

[Ex Player]

You've never seen the term before? It's used for players that mash AAA but can't hack at it the MLB level for whatever reasons.

 

See: Brandon Wood, A.J. Reed, and Travis Snider.

No, I've never heard of that term before. But thanks for enlightening me

[wk680]

Winning is literally about having a good team on paper

 

 

Over the long haul of a 162 teams that's obviously almost always true, but in a shorter timeframe and the spotlight of the postseason things like intangibles and momentum start to play a bigger factor.

 

How about Citi being the reason that John Olerud and Shawn Green wanted out of the org? Also, explain to me why he didn't dare so well in his second go around?

 

Not all managers and coaches are going to get along. Gibby wasn't universally liked either. I can't really comment on the later part of Gaston's managing career post 2004, I lost interest in baseball during that period. But didn't the teams in his second managing stint (along with the end of his original tenure) mostly lack the player personnel to be competitive (even the best manager can only do so much with a bad team). Anyway I wouldn't put the guy up there as an all-time great manager, but winning championships does count for something. My question was and remains, what is so great about Bobby Cox with his postseason record of 67W - 69L

[Brownie19]

Over the long haul of a 162 teams that's obviously almost always true, but in a shorter timeframe and the spotlight of the postseason things like intangibles and momentum start to play a bigger factor.

 

 

 

Not all managers and coaches are going to get along. Gibby wasn't universally liked either. I can't really comment on the later part of Gaston's managing career post 2004, I lost interest in baseball during that period. But didn't the teams in his second managing stint (along with the end of his original tenure) mostly lack the player personnel to be competitive (even the best manager can only do so much with a bad team). Anyway I wouldn't put the guy up there as an all-time great manager, but winning championships does count for something. My question was and remains, what is so great about Bobby Cox with his postseason record of 67W - 69L

 

'Not getting along' with 2 of the most talented players to don the Blue Jays uniform is kind of a big deal...

[Krylian]

Winning is literally about having a good team on paper

 

Those players still have to perform on the field.

 

Having the right players on paper improve the odds that your team will actually produce the desired outcome, but winning is not about what it says on a spreadsheet...The spreadsheet only tells you what already happened. They actually have to physically do it during the next game.

[Spanky99]

No, I've never heard of that term before. But thanks for enlightening me

 

Really, I call BS!

[Spanky99]

Those players still have to perform on the field.

 

Having the right players on paper improve the odds that your team will actually produce the desired outcome, but winning is not about what it says on a spreadsheet...The spreadsheet only tells you what already happened. They actually have to physically do it during the next game.

 

This is true hence projection, lol. New, bench players, Sp depth and RP's, beg to differ.

[Krylian]

This is true hence projection, lol. New, bench players, Sp depth and RP's, beg to differ.

 

Projection = educated guess

 

It does not equal actuals.

 

Actuals = Actuals

 

If projections were 100% Vegas would be bankrupt.

[Spanky99]

Projection = educated guess

 

It does not equal actuals.

 

Actuals = Actuals

 

If projections were 100% Vegas would be bankrupt.

 

[Orgfiller]

Projection = educated guess

 

It does not equal actuals.

 

Actuals = Actuals

 

If projections were 100% Vegas would be bankrupt.

 

Actually, Vegas isn't bankrupt because their models and projections are that good.