General 2019 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Ray]

No it says he wasn't aware that Atkins turned that deal down. And settled for Merryweather which is exactly what I posted

 

It makes him sound uninformed which he is.

 

Nightingale specifically said the Jays turned down a "package" fronted by Flaherty. Nightingale later confirmed to Chris Russo on "High Heat" it was 2 of Flaherty, Bader, or Kelly.

 

What in Atkins history says he's qualified to make those Decisions? Is it Happ for McKinney and Drury?

 

Ownership prioritized competing over rebuilding to keep fan interest high. Shapiro has all but said that he would've torn it down post 2017.

 

He made a good trade the one time he had a good asset to sell. Roberto Osuna ended up netting them Ken Giles + 2 pretty good pitching prospects. You can be disappointed at the Happ trade, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a 35 year old rental and not necessarily an elite pitcher.

 

Cashman actually came across as worse in that trade. Traded away Taylor Widener, Nick Solak, Billy McKinney, and Brandon Drury all for 1/2 a season of JA Happ.

[metafour]

Are you f***ing retarded?

 

That proposed deal supposedly happened a full year+ earlier. Which kind of matters because it IMPACTS HOW MUCH VALUE DONALDSON WOULD PROVIDE TO HIS NEW TEAM. The more WAR a player is expected to contribute, the more a team is willing to give up to acquire him. Is this clicking for you?

 

They only got Merryweather because Donaldson was traded AFTER the deadline, and hadn't even played in months and was coming straight off an injury. That means that he was actually valued even LESS than a typical rental...because he played in even fewer games for his acquiring team.

 

They didn't actually think that Merryweather was a better package you idiot. They settled for the best return they could get. No s***, they should have traded him for more a year earlier. Brilliant deduction. The argument is whether or not they had clearance from Rogers to make that move when they clearly wanted to ride the attendance train as long as possible.

[glory]

So if we trade Stroman, Sanchez and Giles for elite hitting prospects, which in a vacuum would be great, where the f*** is our pitching going to come from? Pearson should be good to great, but we're relying super heavily on Thornton, Murphy, SRF, Borucki and like... Tepera and Paulino? Our pitching looks a LOT worse without Stroman and Giles, so their replacements would have to come from somewhere.

 

Mid tier free agents and trading prospects for starters with 2+ years of control left. Pitching prospects are the scariest assets imaginable. Trade for vets whose arms are more likely to stay attached and hope to build an offence/defence that is full of elite young talent. It won’t be easy but that’s probably the avenue they go.

[wk680]

Ownership prioritized competing over rebuilding to keep fan interest high. Shapiro has all but said that he would've torn it down post 2017.

 

He made a good trade the one time he had a good asset to sell. Roberto Osuna ended up netting them Ken Giles + 2 pretty good pitching prospects. You can be disappointed at the Happ trade, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a 35 year old rental and not necessarily an elite pitcher.

 

Cashman actually came across as worse in that trade. Traded away Taylor Widener, Nick Solak, Billy McKinney, and Brandon Drury all for 1/2 a season of JA Happ.

 

Yeah complaining about what the Jays got in return for JA Happ is ridiculous. To say he is not and never was an elite pitcher is putting it kindly (I mean the guy is solid in recent years but nothing spectacular).

 

Mid tier free agents and trading prospects for starters with 2+ years of control left. Pitching prospects are the scariest assets imaginable. Trade for vets whose arms are more likely to stay attached and hope to build an offence/defence that is full of elite young talent. It won’t be easy but that’s probably the avenue they go.

 

But it would be difficult to get teams to part with their "starters with 2+ years of control left" unless they have really given up on them or you are offering premium talent in return. But what little premium talent the Jays have that is at or near MLB ready is needed for their own roster at this point. I think the better bet is to keep their own guy (Stroman) and maybe sign one or two more free agents this off season.

 

ETA: Sanchez to the bullpen yesterday please

[Carlos Danger]

Ugghhh... these new posters.

 

 

Agree 100%

 

I prefer seeing just a dozen regular posters on the board every night.

 

Group think is great, opposing opinions, we don't like those.

 

If you are not in the club, well, you are not in the club, that is life!

 

This board is in no need of growth or more diverse posters.

 

There was a vote, albeit secret, but it was a democratic process at to what type of poster is allowed and welcome here. Check the docs. for the criteria.

 

There was another vote, albeit also secret, as to who the appointed rulers of this Kingdom are. Even if they are not Mods, they are pulling the strings.

 

All the guys in the Club are secretly upper management on major league teams. They break away from making trades, getting ready for the draft and negotiating extensions to spend time with us here and keep this place in order. Please respect they are experts and you should defer to their expertise.

 

Oh, Welcome to the board, hope you feel at home and you fit in.. Please take note of the last part.. Non-negotiable.

[BTS]

Agree 100%

 

I prefer seeing just a dozen regular posters on the board every night.

 

Group think is great, opposing opinions, we don't like those.

 

If you are not in the club, well, you are not in the club, that is life!

 

This board is in no need of growth or more diverse posters.

 

There was a vote, albeit secret, but it was a democratic process at to what type of poster is allowed and welcome here. Check the docs. for the criteria.

 

There was another vote, albeit also secret, as to who the appointed rulers of this Kingdom are. Even if they are not Mods, they are pulling the strings.

 

All the guys in the Club are secretly upper management on major league teams. They break away from making trades, getting ready for the draft and negotiating extensions to spend time with us here and keep this place in order. Please respect they are experts and you should defer to their expertise.

 

Oh, Welcome to the board, hope you feel at home and you fit in.. Please take note of the last part.. Non-negotiable.

 

Read through mikepelfrey's posts. Now, on a forum where people bicker incessantly, do you think people might take an issue with him for having a different opinion, or for being a f***ing moron?

[Spanky99]

Agree 100%

 

I prefer seeing just a dozen regular posters on the board every night.

 

Group think is great, opposing opinions, we don't like those.

 

If you are not in the club, well, you are not in the club, that is life!

 

This board is in no need of growth or more diverse posters.

 

There was a vote, albeit secret, but it was a democratic process at to what type of poster is allowed and welcome here. Check the docs. for the criteria.

 

There was another vote, albeit also secret, as to who the appointed rulers of this Kingdom are. Even if they are not Mods, they are pulling the strings.

 

All the guys in the Club are secretly upper management on major league teams. They break away from making trades, getting ready for the draft and negotiating extensions to spend time with us here and keep this place in order. Please respect they are experts and you should defer to their expertise.

 

Oh, Welcome to the board, hope you feel at home and you fit in.. Please take note of the last part.. Non-negotiable.

 

Well your ball knowledge is on par, so I can see you being forum cop for such alike.

[Spanky99]

Read through mikepelfrey's posts. Now, on a forum where people bicker incessantly, do you think people might take an issue with him for having a different opinion, or for being a f***ing moron?

 

CD posts the same ridiculous s*** though, he can't see the difference.

[BTS]

CD posts the same ridiculous s*** though, he can't defer the difference.

 

I'm not even talking about bad baseball takes. I'm talking about stupid disingenuous s*** like posting about how metafour prefers Merryweather to Flaherty and Bader because he defended the Donaldson trade. Someone like that is a s***** poster, and it has nothing to do with any kind of hive mind or old boys club.

[Carlos Danger]

Read through mikepelfrey's posts. Now, on a forum where people bicker incessantly, do you think people might take an issue with him for having a different opinion, or for being a f***ing moron?

 

Baseball is the same as politics and people have differing opinions.. How many posters in the politics thread have called the other morons and idiots etc.. They have differing opinion.. However, the politics thread would be pretty damn boring if it was just Bobthe4skin, Jim and Tbag giving fellatio to each other. Same goes for if it were only Boxy, Terminator and I and no one else.. Pretty boring.. I didn't include Conorp on either side because his allegiance is to Allah and no earthly political figure.

 

My point being what is the difference in having a differing, but "radical" or moronic opinion in politics than it is in baseball?

 

A solid poster can refute a bad argument with facts and good debate skills.. No need to make someone feel unwelcome due to a contrary baseball opinion.

 

To add, I don't even know what you are all arguing about.. However, no one can say that A is a correct strategy or course of action and substantiate that because so far this team at the end of the day has had zero successful results at the ML level under this regime. That is not to say we won't but so far, zero.

[BTS]

Baseball is the same as politics and people have differing opinions.. How many posters in the politics thread have called the other morons and idiots etc.. They have differing opinion.. However, the politics thread would be pretty damn boring if it was just Bobthe4skin, Jim and Tbag giving fellatio to each other. Same goes for if it were only Boxy, Terminator and I and no one else.. Pretty boring.. I didn't include Conorp on either side because his allegiance is to Allah and no earthly political figure.

 

My point being what is the difference in having a differing, but "radical" or moronic opinion in politics than it is in baseball?

 

A solid poster can refute a bad argument with facts and good debate skills.. No need to make someone feel unwelcome due to a contrary baseball opinion.

 

To add, I don't even know what you are all arguing about.. However, no one can say that A is a correct strategy or course of action and substantiate that because so far this team at the end of the day has had zero successful results at the ML level under this regime. That is not to say we won't but so far, zero.

 

Read my post above. It has nothing to do with baseball takes. The idea that everyone here agrees about baseball is f***ing absurd.

[wk680]

I'm not even talking about bad baseball takes. I'm talking about stupid disingenuous s*** like posting about how metafour prefers Merryweather to Flaherty and Bader because he defended the Donaldson trade. Someone like that is a s***** poster, and it has nothing to do with any kind of hive mind or old boys club.

 

I think it is partly due to the poster not being properly aware of what the f*** the situation was at the time these proposed or actual trades took place. The fact the Jays got anything for Donaldson after the disasterous way his 2018 season went is a positive. Also comparing the trade after the season Falherty had in 2018 compared to the 2017-18 offseason is the obvious logical flaw. But maybe consider pointing these things out instead of just calling peiople stupid - not everyone spends the requisite time keeping up to date with all the baseball goings on to make 'intelligent posts'.

[BTS]

I think it is partly due to the poster not being properly aware of what the f*** the situation was at the time these proposed or actual trades took place. The fact the Jays got anything for Donaldson after the disasterous way his 2018 season went is a positive. Also comparing the trade after the season Falherty had in 2018 compared to the 2017-18 offseason is the obvious logical flaw. But maybe consider pointing these things out instead of just calling peiople stupid - not everyone spends the requisite time keeping up to date with all the baseball goings on to make 'intelligent posts'.

 

I mean, he was either being disingenuous, or vociferously defending a position while not actually knowing the details of what he was talking about. Either situation makes his input s***** for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the meme of this forum being in constant unanimous agreement and rejecting anyone with different ideas.

[Carlos Danger]

Read my post above. It has nothing to do with baseball takes. The idea that everyone here agrees about baseball is f***ing absurd.

 

I was writing that when you posted the above. Did not see that prior to my post. My original response was to the generalization "New Posters" Uggggg Heir Spanky should have probably have addressed the poster individually instead of making generalizations that every poster or prospective poster will see.

[BTS]

I was writing that when you posted the above. Did not see that prior to my post. My original response was to the generalization "New Posters" Uggggg Heir Spanky should have probably have addressed the poster individually instead of making generalizations that every poster or prospective poster will see.

 

Fair. There actually have been a decent number of good new posters lately.

[wk680]

I mean, he was either being disingenuous, or vociferously defending a position while not actually knowing the details of what he was talking about. Either situation makes his input s***** for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the meme of this forum being in constant unanimous agreement and rejecting anyone with different ideas.

 

Yeah that's what I was saying. I guess the question is do you set someone, who is new, straight with the facts and see if they accept and concede the point. The problem can be if you just tell someone you don't know what the hell you are talking about without explaining why that is. Then they may just assume you just have a differing opinion (as Carlos Danger suggested) and automatically put up a non-objective defense.

[Spanky99]

I was writing that when you posted the above. Did not see that prior to my post. My original response was to the generalization "New Posters" Uggggg Heir Spanky should have probably have addressed the poster individually instead of making generalizations that every poster or prospective poster will see.

 

There was only two in this thread. I think that narrowed it down. That's right I wear the crown.

[Spanky99]

Yeah that's what I was saying. I guess the question is do you set someone, who is new, straight with the facts and see if they accept and concede the point. The problem can be if you just tell someone you don't know what the hell you are talking about without explaining why that is. Then they may just assume you just have a differing opinion (as Carlos Danger suggested) and automatically put up a non-objective defense.

 

If this is is in reference to me, I do that only after reading or trying to converse first, but post history is easy to find, man. It's not good.

[tbad]

Jackson set the record for most teams, now he can kindly f*** off

[wk680]

If this is is in reference to me, I do that only after reading or trying to converse first, but post history is easy to find, man. It's not good.

 

just directed at the board regulars / long time members in general. I realize there may be a lot of scepticism of 'newbies' that pop up and start posting regularly. It's certainly not always easy to distinguish between those who are well-meaning but just hard-headed and the ones that are truly incorrigible.....

[Brownie19]

This year (and probably last year) I agree with you on.

But in 2015 and 2016 he couldve made some FA moves, and yet he didnt

 

 

The guy is a troll. He's been following me around since I joined last month.

I guess there's nothing else to do up there in hickville

 

Dude - you say stupid things on a consistent basis. Do more listening here.

 

In the meantime - get back to me with a list of the big FA's the Dodgers have built their current team with.

 

CD - this has nothing to do with an old boys club or opposing views at all. People who making false statements are asking to be called out.

[vdubmvp]

I mean, he was either being disingenuous, or vociferously defending a position while not actually knowing the details of what he was talking about. Either situation makes his input s***** for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the meme of this forum being in constant unanimous agreement and rejecting anyone with different ideas.

 

Nice.

[mikepelfrey]

Are you f***ing retarded?

 

That proposed deal supposedly happened a full year+ earlier. Which kind of matters because it IMPACTS HOW MUCH VALUE DONALDSON WOULD PROVIDE TO HIS NEW TEAM. The more WAR a player is expected to contribute, the more a team is willing to give up to acquire him. Is this clicking for you?

 

They only got Merryweather because Donaldson was traded AFTER the deadline, and hadn't even played in months and was coming straight off an injury. That means that he was actually valued even LESS than a typical rental...because he played in even fewer games for his acquiring team.

 

They didn't actually think that Merryweather was a better package you idiot. They settled for the best return they could get. No s***, they should have traded him for more a year earlier. Brilliant deduction. The argument is whether or not they had clearance from Rogers to make that move when they clearly wanted to ride the attendance train as long as possible.

NO BUT YOU DEFINITELY ARE.

 

Read Nightingales quote. The offer was last winter before this past season. Coming into his final year before free agency.

 

After winning 76 games and knowing if you don't resign him he walks anyway. So no YOU WORLD CLASS IDIOT it was not a year before but merely months before the season

 

ANY GM worth anything knew it was a risk to hold him. So you either Sign Donaldson long term or trade him before the season.

 

THEY CHOSE not to and got burned. It's the same for any pending free agent going into his walk year and only a fool would think the Jays coming off a 76-86 year were going to contend when they turned that deal down.

 

Shapiro and Atkins just did a poor job of evaluation and deluded themselves into thinking they were better than they were and you metafour were dumb enough to buy it.

 

The Cardinals targeted Donaldson, when the Jays turned them down they tried for Stanton and when he wouldn't go there they traded for Ozuna. So the only retard is you because you obviously don't know how to read a calendar

 

You did say and I quote your own words: "A full year+ earlier"

Edited June 1, 2019 by mikepelfrey

[mikepelfrey]

Yeah complaining about what the Jays got in return for JA Happ is ridiculous. To say he is not and never was an elite pitcher is putting it kindly (I mean the guy is solid in recent years but nothing spectacular).

 

 

 

But it would be difficult to get teams to part with their "starters with 2+ years of control left" unless they have really given up on them or you are offering premium talent in return. But what little premium talent the Jays have that is at or near MLB ready is needed for their own roster at this point. I think the better bet is to keep their own guy (Stroman) and maybe sign one or two more free agents this off season.

 

ETA: Sanchez to the bullpen yesterday please

 

For accuracy sake Ray was wrong. Solak and Widener were traded for Drury. No one expected Gleyber Torres and Andujar to both be ready to start last season. When they were. It made Drury expendable. Cashman merely like any wise GM, gave himself options in case the two rookies needed more seasoning. So as a point of fact. Solak and Widener were not traded for Happ. They were traded for Drury who was there in case Torres or Andujar weren't ready

 

I tend to agree with your reasoning. I was more upset that they got nothing for Estrada who was a great pressure pitcher and waited too long on Smoak.

 

There's a saying fortune favors the bold and Shapiro and Atkins strike me as too timid

Edited June 1, 2019 by mikepelfrey

[wk680]

For accuracy sake Ray was wrong. Solak and Widener were traded for Drury. No one expected Gleyber Torres and Andujar to both be ready to start last season. When they were. It made Drury expendable. Cashman merely like any wise GM, gave himself options in case the two rookies needed more seasoning. So as a point of fact. Solak and Widener were not traded for Happ. They were traded for Drury who was there in case Torres or Andujar weren't ready

 

I tend to agree with your reasoning. I was more upset that they got nothing for Estrada who was a great pressure pitcher and waited too long on Smoak.

 

There's a saying fortune favors the bold and Shapiro and Atkins strike me as too timid

 

yes, there is a lot of prospect for prospect or prospect for decent MLBers trade activity that goes on, for which a lot of subjective arguing can occur. That's where you have to give Anthopoulous credit for being able to trade for the genuine article in Tulo, JD, and Price. Had the Jays won the WS in 2015, we would be seeing him as a hero. For that matter, imagine things had fallen into place perfectly in 2013 -he would have been seen as a freakin' genius!

[Ex Player]

Dude - you say stupid things on a consistent basis. Do more listening here.

 

In the meantime - get back to me with a list of the big FA's the Dodgers have built their current team with.

 

CD - this has nothing to do with an old boys club or opposing views at all. People who making false statements are asking to be called out

Sure thing, Bubbles

 

[Ex Player]

Jackson set the record for most teams, now he can kindly f*** off

LOL......he's just filling in the blanks until the next generation arrives (whenever that is)

[TheOutsider]

Jackson set the record for most teams, now he can kindly f*** off

 

Can Atkins ask teams for prospects in return for the Jays pitching Edwin Jackson against them? Worth a shot.

[mikepelfrey]

yes, there is a lot of prospect for prospect or prospect for decent MLBers trade activity that goes on, for which a lot of subjective arguing can occur. That's where you have to give Anthopoulous credit for being able to trade for the genuine article in Tulo, JD, and Price. Had the Jays won the WS in 2015, we would be seeing him as a hero. For that matter, imagine things had fallen into place perfectly in 2013 -he would have been seen as a freakin' genius!

 

Absolutely, AA wasn't perfect. But the the one thing you knew about him was that he knew his team inside and out and wasn't afraid. He made moves and if he saw that one particular aspect wasn't what was expected he didn't just stubbornly insist that he was right and do nothing. We saw that with Jose Reyes. After that big trade, which on the surface was fine. Buehrle was a workhorse and the others looked promising. (I mean who could see that Josh Johnson and Reyes would suddenly go from all stars to the outhouse overnight) he didn't just do nothing, he went and got Tulowitzki and by rights should have gone all the way.

 

Some fans have got this mistaken idea that Rogers interference is the cause of our woes. And to that I say Hogwash. If a GM doesn't have the stones to stand up and push back against ownership and do what he thinks is right, than he isn't worth having, and at least AA did that.

 

Shapiro strikes me as a guy who is content to collect high draft choices and tank for however many years it takes to build a winner. But to me what's the point. A village idiot could do that. And unless you have an eye for talent there's no guarantee you'll select the right guys in the draft.

[mikepelfrey]

just directed at the board regulars / long time members in general. I realize there may be a lot of scepticism of 'newbies' that pop up and start posting regularly. It's certainly not always easy to distinguish between those who are well-meaning but just hard-headed and the ones that are truly incorrigible.....

Honestly just because a guy is new HERE doesn't mean they have nothing to add. I've posted on several forums including on PSD blue jays forum for 5 years. I have no problem admitting I'm banned there for 30 days for not posting the "company line". I'm gonna post what I believe to be objectively true regardless of whether its popular opinion or not. Feel free to disagree. But I'm of the opinion that if everyone only said what others "want to hear" nobody would ever learn anything.

 

Just like metafour above he took offense to what I said and came at me, I don't mind, in fact I respect it. I just give it right back and say what I know to be true. If people want to believe that Shapiro and Atkins can do no wrong that's their business. But I know that no GM is perfect, just like I'm not

Edited June 1, 2019 by mikepelfrey