Joe Biagini - Starter or Reliever?

[Fiddlehead]

Someone will have to be the 5th starter and it may as well be him. Granted, I t’s all moot until they find a number 1 guy anyway.

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

I think for the Fifth starter I would rather just have Boruki and Pannone fight it out for the Fifth spot on the Team.

 

Loser can either be sent to Buffalo or become a swing man/ long relief/ emergency starter type getting innings or eating them!

 

But I also see Bagini, Rowley or maybe Guerrieri also being used in that same type of role! With Guerrieri maybe being the one used at AAA!

 

Unless they have options Tepera, loup, browning and Girado could be released or packaged maybe for something though I doubt they would get you much!

 

I wouldn’t mind seeing Leone, Dermondy and the kid Snead get the remaining slots

With Osuna as the closer!

[glory]

I’d use him as a starter. Could be a decent #5 or swing man.

[KingKat]

I'm with Terminator on this. He's a fringey guy in both roles and he has options so you might as well hold him back in the AAA rotation and wait until need dictates his usage. I mean that's one of the big benefits of a rule 5 guy is that after that first year, you can start using their options as you like. He might currently be the best fifth starer option and one of the best bullpen options but there's no reason to be content with that. Much like the team created a buffer between Tulo/Travis and Gift Ngoepe, they should create a buffer between the more established pitchers and Biagini. Pushing Biagini right to the rotation to start the season is AA style roster management. Pass.

[Laika]

I don't see how sending him to AAA makes any sense.

 

I mean they'll stretch him out in spring training and let team health when camp breaks dictate his role but I can't see them sending their ~7th best arm to AAA.

[KingKat]

I don't see how sending him to AAA makes any sense.

 

I mean they'll stretch him out in spring training and let team health when camp breaks dictate his role but I can't see them sending their ~7th best arm to AAA.

 

I don't understand being content with where he currently stands on the depth chart as opposed to pushing him further back by signing a 5th starter (with the caveat that this 5th starter is a hypothetical player that you still have to obtain somehow but at the very least, that's something that should be on the radar screen and in an ideal scenario obtained).

[Laika]

Well you can upgrade on the #5 SP and push him to the pen...

 

... sending him to AAA is just downgrading the MLB team.

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

So as I outlined in my post above effectivley if you only roll with 12 out of camp you have:

 

Estrada Rhp

Happ Lhp

Stroman Rhp

Sanchez Rhp

Boruki/ Pannane Lhp

 

Bagini Rhp

Rowley Rhp

Guerrieri Rhp for one of Two spots

Boruki/ Pannone Lhp

 

Leonne Rhp

Dermondy Lhp

Snead Lhp

 

Osuna Rhp

[Brownie19]

Very divisive.

 

Biagini might be the 6th or 7th best arm on the 25 man roster right now. He's a pretty important factor for 2018.

 

I think some of you are falling victim to ERA bias.

 

I can't ignore that 3-13 record either

[KingKat]

Well you can upgrade on the #5 SP and push him to the pen...

 

... sending him to AAA is just downgrading the MLB team.

 

I think there's a lot of value in having a decent #6 with options who starts the season at AAA. Someone like that is going to get enough work to more than cancel out missing out on a few bullpen appearances early in the season. I mean it's possible that the Jays won't have enough comparable options for the bullpen and be forced to use him but that's not a desirable outcome IMO. Having the luxury to pencil him into a taxi role is what you'd want.

[Terminator]

Well you can upgrade on the #5 SP and push him to the pen...

 

... sending him to AAA is just downgrading the MLB team.

 

Over an entire season it'd be a marginal downgrade of less than a WAR. And working off the theory that he'll be in the rotation sooner rather than later it's a very short term downgrade anyway. High likelihood that he's in the rotation in May or June. We probably need 8 capable starting pitchers. Some of them will need to be in AAA.

 

I'm all for him starting in the bullpen and then switching to the rotation but would like to know how that affects his performance. This team also won't necessarily do that. They could send him back to Buffalo and allow a Mat Latos type to get starts while Biagini builds up his stamina.

[Orgfiller]

I think there's a lot of value in having a decent #6 with options who starts the season at AAA. Someone like that is going to get enough work to more than cancel out missing out on a few bullpen appearances early in the season. I mean it's possible that the Jays won't have enough comparable options for the bullpen and be forced to use him but that's not a desirable outcome IMO. Having the luxury to pencil him into a taxi role is what you'd want.

 

But there's just no point in having him in AAA when he currently improves our team and he's got nothing to work out down there. We're certainly not on Dodgers or Astros level of pitching depth, so why waste one of the guys who could slot into an empty slot and improve our team in the minors? Having options is only a luxury if the team is stacked enough at that position that we can afford to stash him.

[Terminator]

But there's just no point in having him in AAA when he currently improves our team and he's got nothing to work out down there. We're certainly not on Dodgers or Astros level of pitching depth, so why waste one of the guys who could slot into an empty slot and improve our team in the minors? Having options is only a luxury if the team is stacked enough at that position that we can afford to stash him.

 

I think some might be ignoring the effects of moving a guy from the rotation in the spring, to a relief role in the bigs leagues, then back to the rotation in April, May or June. Then if someone gets healthy he'd go back to the bullpen and do it all again. I guess that's what swingmen do and I can't say with any certainty that it has an adverse affect either so perhaps it is the right move.

 

I don't find the argument regarding "downgrading the big league team" to be all the persuasive though. We are talking a handful of innings in a middle relief role over the course of the first couple months of the season. Those innings are probably made up when he can come in and pitch 6 to 7 innings unrestricted instead of 3 innings one start, 4 the next, then eventually he's got no restrictions. And of course, they may send him down to the bigs to stretch out while a shitbag like Rowley gets the interim starts anyway. This FO has done that before. The #6 SP is a key member of the big league team anyway. It's a more important position than a middle relief role IMO.

[Dick_Pole]

BP - keep him there as much as possible. But it's nice to know that there is a warm body better than Laffey if the Jays can't sign or trade for some back-end starters. Stretch him out in the majors if need be.

 

There is way too many words being typed out in a debate for f***ing Joe Biagini.

[Laika]

To the people who don't think Joe Biagini is worth discussing at length in January - I question how much you even really like baseball.

[TheHurl]

I'm surprised you feel that way. Marginal improvements in the pen are secondary to starting pitcher depth IMO. Let's assume we sign a capable fifth starter. Who would our 6th starter be? Borucki? Mat Latos or someone like him again? We will likely get a full season's worth of starts from pitchers other than our initial 1-5. Biagini should be soaking most of those up. Having him stretched out and ready to go when one of our starters gets hurt (it's inevitable) seems better than jerking him around from the MLB pen to the AAA rotation for a few games and then back up to the MLB rotation. It's also a lot easier to find a reliever who would provide similar production to Biagini than it is a starter who is willing to sign for depth.

 

I guess I'd also be ok with him being the long reliever in theory. Just seems like in today's game with 8 man pens there aren't many guys who manage to stay stretched out in long relief. So he'd have to do the 4 games in Buffalo to stretch out anyway.

 

I just don't think "stretched out" matters that much (if he were in the pen and then needed for spot starts in July, he should be able to do that). I'd like to see Biagini in a 2 or 3 inning role and ready to go on 3 days rest. I think that role is given to the wrong guys too often (weakest guy in the pen and only in meaningless innings). I'd like it to happen in closer games more often. What could be thrown into NJH's SSS review of him as a starter is that he got better deeper into games. Which might mean he didn't "bring it" from the start of the game.

[John_Havok]

I just don't think "stretched out" matters that much

 

Then you're dating the wrong women my friend.

[glory]

I think frequent role changes can have a negative impact on a pitcher. They are human after all. If they want him to be a starter and he doesn't win the #5 spot, then I say keep him in Buffalo until a need arises. He has options so they can get away with it. The difference between him in the pen and whoever they use in his place for how ever long he's in the minors will be marginal at best.

 

Kinda wish the Jays were the team that signed Koehler for $2m instead of the Dodgers. He'd fit right in as the swing man and that cost is more appropriate for the type of pitcher he is.

[Spanky99]

The first time he went from RP to SP they did that, the second time they sent him back to Buffalo.

 

Yeah, to work on the full wind-up mechanics.

[L54]

Does anyone really think Biagini is more than an okay middle reliever? The K's aren't there and the velo is average. There's nothing about him that inspires confidence that he may have some untapped potential. That milk bag bod isn't helping his case either.

 

He was a good rule V pick by Shapiro, but that's about where it ends for me. Put him back in the pen and he can chew some innings and can shuttle back and forth between Toronto and Buffalo with his options.

[Deadpool]

Does anyone really think Biagini is more than an okay middle reliever? The K's aren't there and the velo is average. There's nothing about him that inspires confidence that he may have some untapped potential. That milk bag bod isn't helping his case either.

 

He was a good rule V pick by Shapiro, but that's about where it ends for me. Put him back in the pen and he can chew some innings and can shuttle back and forth between Toronto and Buffalo with his options.

 

He's probably a league average fifth starter, IMO. He's not busting down doors, but you need a guy that throws up those innings every 5th day.

[Scottish blue jay]

There doesn't seem to be a better option then Biagini within the organisation. So, we need to go with him as the 5th starter until the club buys a better option or he blows it during the season and he has to be replaced. It's happened before, I'm old enough to remember Boucher!

[Fiddlehead]

There doesn't seem to be a better option then Biagini within the organisation. So, we need to go with him as the 5th starter until the club buys a better option or he blows it during the season and he has to be replaced. It's happened before, I'm old enough to remember Boucher!

 

Not having a better option sums up the entire organsiation. I still contend, if they truly desire to compete, they need a top of the rotation pitcher and slide any of the other chaps down.

[Scottish blue jay]

Can we afford it? OR....if we want to compete with Donaldson still around we MUST afford it.

[Bobthe4th]

At the moment the 5th to 7th starters are all players who have had limited or no starts in the majors - Biagini, Guerrieri, McGuire, and maybe Borucki and Pannone too.

 

I remain convinced signing another starter is the way to go, ideally a Lynn or Cobb especially as Happ and Estrada are in the final years of their contracts. All of the above have options left so they can rotate in to replace injured players and hope at least one of them succeeds.

[The Iceman]

The Jays are kind of pregnant.

Just like they are kind of trying to compete.

Big contracts for Tulo, Martin, Donaldson. That is great, I like the Infield.

Worst OF in American League other than maybe KC

This was the worst team in the East last season until the last day. How is adding depth at the middle IF position going to over take BoSx and Yanks?

The team needs to get younger and more athletic with the thought to compete in the future or get off their wallets and sign some players to help them compete today. The fact they aren't in on the top FA pitchers tells you that they are not serious in contending.

Worst thing that can happen is what is happening. patching a flawed roster. Cut the fat and go young or load up and go for it.

Another season like last is not appealing to me.

[Brownie19]

You don't have to beat the NYY and BOS to make the playoffs.

 

IF Sanchez is back healthy, the rotation should be a strength again (although we could stand to improve our depth).

[John_Havok]

You don't have to beat the NYY and BOS to make the playoffs.

 

True, you just have to beat whichever one doesn't take the division, but that's still a tall order.

[Brownie19]

True, you just have to beat whichever one doesn't take the division, but that's still a tall order.

 

In a 1 game playoff...