General 2018 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Deadpool]

I don't think he really ripped Shatkins that much. More questioned the direction and vision and doesn't like how secretive they always are.

 

The Stroman thing is bang on. He's a s*** show off the field.

 

I have never understood the belief from the media that the front office owes them information. I think they're much more effective when they're playing their cards close to their chest. I thought the same thing back when Ricciardi's "it's not a lie if we know the truth" comment became a big f***ing deal.

[Deadpool]

They can't wait until they can trade Stroman. Problem is he needs to pitch well first. I would love if he was moved at the Deadline. Rockies seem like a fit.

 

If he's pitching well, we should be keeping him (unless there's a great offer for him, obviously). I don't give even the tiniest whiff of a f*** what he acts like on the internet if he's pitching well, and his demonstrated love of Toronto may turn into a home-town discount down the road.

[Krylian]

I have never understood the belief from the media that the front office owes them information. I think they're much more effective when they're playing their cards close to their chest. I thought the same thing back when Ricciardi's "it's not a lie if we know the truth" comment became a big f***ing deal.

 

I think there's a balance. You don't have to give any sort of specifics, but I think a lot of people...probably mostly the troglodytes...would like to hear the 'we're in a rebuild...and we're thinking that we should be contending within 3 years' rhetoric....or 'we're going to retool and make a run at it in 2019'. I think the media is looking for a general outline of what direction the club plans on taking to right the ship rather than general silence. Not saying i agree or disagree, just that this is what I think the beef seems to be.

[CrackerJack]

I think there's a balance. You don't have to give any sort of specifics, but I think a lot of people...probably mostly the troglodytes...would like to hear the 'we're in a rebuild...and we're thinking that we should be contending within 3 years' rhetoric....or 'we're going to retool and make a run at it in 2019'. I think the media is looking for a general outline of what direction the club plans on taking to right the ship rather than general silence. Not saying i agree or disagree, just that this is what I think the beef seems to be.

 

maybe the FO fears publicly using the word "rebuild" while jacking up ticket prices about 17% to watch a mediocre squad of mostly scrubs (who probably won't be here in 2 years?)

[glory]

I remember in 2005 (I think), Rob Babcock was the GM of the Raptors and he flat out said the team was going to stink and rebuild, and he lasted a few more months before he was canned. He got a lot of heat for that comment. Of course he sucked as a GM so that was another blemish for him. Times have changed since then, maybe, but I don't blame any front office in Toronto for being tight lipped about their plans. Corporate owners who only care about bottom line/optics, and fans who are insufferable on social media. Just let the front office do their thing and we'll see what the end result is.

[CrackerJack]

"There is pain coming."

 

Mike Babcock, 2015

[Spanky99]

"There is pain coming."

 

Mike Babcock, 2015

 

TML have 16,000 corporate owned season ticket holders, with over an 8 year waiting list to get in the other seats, lol... nothing alike.

[CrackerJack]

TML have 16,000 corporate owned season ticket holders, with over an 8 year waiting list to get in the other seats, lol... nothing alike.

 

so the Blue Jays FO should pretend that they have a solid squad to keep the fairweather fans around?

[Spanky99]

so the Blue Jays FO should pretend that they have a solid squad to keep the fairweather fans around?

 

Yup, that's what I said.

 

Can't the fairweather fans figure it out for themselves?!

[FrozenRopes]

They can't wait until they can trade Stroman. Problem is he needs to pitch well first. I would love if he was moved at the Deadline. Rockies seem like a fit.

 

Rockies would work. He can hide is pitching issues in an elevated ballpark where every pitcher has inflated numbers.

[Slade]

Bob McCown rips Shapiro and Atkins during the last 18 minutes of the Friday show

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/590/prime-time-sports/

 

Bob-Cat also says that Marcus Stroman is a "complete nutcase" and a total punk. Seems like he might be referring to some inside intel or somethng.

 

f***, it sure has been a disappointing year, eh boys?

 

Jesus that was a dogshit baseball discussion. Not a single person on that table knows anything about the Jays. They couldn't even take two seconds to do a tiny bit of research on what they have done. McCowan so dumb saying just forget AA and AAA just let them play here. How f***ing stupid can you be?

 

They're Kissing AA ass saying Shapiro has done nothing when AA did nothing for years and finally made a move when he knew he was getting fired.

[leaffie]

Those know nothing guys knew enough to state that the hiring of Morales and the letting Encarnacion go was a big mistake. They also knew that Donaldson should have been traded before now, when the Jays will be lucky to get someone to take an oft injured old third baseman. They said that Happ should have been traded by now, and they are right on that one. Maybe no deals have materialized, but they were still right in that Happ should be gone before his value diminishes. Shapiro has improved the farm system, no doubt. But what other results have appeared. Those know nothings also said that. They said, who will be with this team in two years and other than perhaps Guerrero, that is a good question.

 

They said there is no plan, and from all appearances, their plan is to try and suck while rebuilding. I know that I am probably the only one that holds this opinion, and I stated it when he was hired. I don't like Shapiro and never have. This team is muddling through and nothing is being done. This is another JP Ricciardi with a bigger payroll. Oh right, they traded Pearce, another oft injured player that Shapiro hired. Numerous members on this board have pushed for the trades of Stroman and Sanchez, and McCown said exactly the same thing. He doesn't like Stroman and it is obvious. So obviously, they do know something about baseball.

 

He also said that he would rather watch the youngsters come up and play than watch this boring, defensively challenged team. Nothing wrong with that. Guerrero is held out as the hope for the Jays, when there is very little pitching on the farm. Yes, he might be a superstar, but where is the supporting cast. So far there is Bichette and Jansen, where are they getting the rest of the team. And unless I am mistaken Guerrero was signed under AA, that guy that everyone hates.

 

 

Shapiro came to the Jays knowing the state of the farm system and the state of the team and their ages etc. If he couldn't convince management that a total rebuild was needed, IMO, he should have stayed where he was. We are coming up to year four of Shapiro and it will be a total washout year, so when does the success under Shapiro start? The guys on the McCown show were asking the same question and as Jays fans everyone should be asking that.

[Stangstag]

Those know nothing guys knew enough to state that the hiring of Morales and the letting Encarnacion go was a big mistake. They also knew that Donaldson should have been traded before now, when the Jays will be lucky to get someone to take an oft injured old third baseman. They said that Happ should have been traded by now, and they are right on that one. Maybe no deals have materialized, but they were still right in that Happ should be gone before his value diminishes. Shapiro has improved the farm system, no doubt. But what other results have appeared. Those know nothings also said that. They said, who will be with this team in two years and other than perhaps Guerrero, that is a good question.

 

They said there is no plan, and from all appearances, their plan is to try and suck while rebuilding. I know that I am probably the only one that holds this opinion, and I stated it when he was hired. I don't like Shapiro and never have. This team is muddling through and nothing is being done. This is another JP Ricciardi with a bigger payroll. Oh right, they traded Pearce, another oft injured player that Shapiro hired. Numerous members on this board have pushed for the trades of Stroman and Sanchez, and McCown said exactly the same thing. He doesn't like Stroman and it is obvious. So obviously, they do know something about baseball.

 

He also said that he would rather watch the youngsters come up and play than watch this boring, defensively challenged team. Nothing wrong with that. Guerrero is held out as the hope for the Jays, when there is very little pitching on the farm. Yes, he might be a superstar, but where is the supporting cast. So far there is Bichette and Jansen, where are they getting the rest of the team. And unless I am mistaken Guerrero was signed under AA, that guy that everyone hates.

 

 

Shapiro came to the Jays knowing the state of the farm system and the state of the team and their ages etc. If he couldn't convince management that a total rebuild was needed, IMO, he should have stayed where he was. We are coming up to year four of Shapiro and it will be a total washout year, so when does the success under Shapiro start? The guys on the McCown show were asking the same question and as Jays fans everyone should be asking that.

 

How many years did it take AA to turn the Jays into a playoff team? And Ricciardi?

 

EDIT: Also this is Shapiro's third season in charge of the Jays.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Stangstag

[leaffie]

I know that this is Shapiro's third season in charge. This year is a washout and what I said was we are coming up to year four of Shapiro, and that is correct. So next year will be another washout, so now we are looking at year five before there is any hope. Took Shapiro about ten years in Cleveland, and I guess that is about what we are looking at, unless he gets fired.

 

AA came in and I am not wasting my time or yours defending him, but he rebuilt the farm and EVERYONE could see the future on that farm. You could see the talent bubbling up. Everyone knows who he traded and what we received. But you could see a future. How is the future looking so far? What year do you think the Jays will be a legitimate contender, and I don't mean for the second wildcard one and done game.

 

How is their future compared to the Sox and Yankees looking? The McCown show yesterday that was quite informative for anyone that actually listened. They asked a lot of questions that if anyone got over their adoration of Shapiro, would want answered.

[Laika]

Pretty sure the Jays' farm right now is in a better state than any of the farms under AA.

[KevinGregg]

Shapiro has improved the farm system, no doubt. But what other results have appeared

 

AA came in and I am not wasting my time or yours defending him, but he rebuilt the farm and EVERYONE could see the future on that farm. You could see the talent bubbling up. Everyone knows who he traded and what we received. But you could see a future. How is the future looking so far?

 

In 2015 baseball America ranked the Jays farm system 10th. This year they ranked them 9th. Whatever potential you saw before is certainly comparable to what we have now.

 

Here is an excellent write up about some of the most exciting prospects in the system:

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.baseballamerica.com/stories/2018-toronto-blue-jays-top-10-prospects-midseason-update/%3famphtml

 

What year do you think the Jays will be a legitimate contender, and I don't mean for the second wildcard one and done game.

 

I feel like there's certainly a chance that the kids all just hit the ground running and we compete next year. If not, 2020 should be a very good roster.

[Terminator]

I know that this is Shapiro's third season in charge. This year is a washout and what I said was we are coming up to year four of Shapiro, and that is correct. So next year will be another washout, so now we are looking at year five before there is any hope. Took Shapiro about ten years in Cleveland, and I guess that is about what we are looking at, unless he gets fired.

 

AA came in and I am not wasting my time or yours defending him, but he rebuilt the farm and EVERYONE could see the future on that farm. You could see the talent bubbling up. Everyone knows who he traded and what we received. But you could see a future. How is the future looking so far? What year do you think the Jays will be a legitimate contender, and I don't mean for the second wildcard one and done game.

 

How is their future compared to the Sox and Yankees looking? The McCown show yesterday that was quite informative for anyone that actually listened. They asked a lot of questions that if anyone got over their adoration of Shapiro, would want answered.

 

It took the Astros about 5 years to go from cellar dweller to perennial contender. I think Shatkins is trying to do something similar while trying to compete for the wild card at the same time.

[THANOS]

Pretty sure the Jays' farm right now is in a better state than any of the farms under AA.

 

It definitely is. It's much more balanced as well. AA was very pitcher heavy in his drafting because his team couldn't develop position players for s***.

 

I don't really care about the MLB roster mgmt too much until our big prospects start moving up. At that point, the decisions of Shatkins will be magnified imo.

 

I agree that they may have been holding their cards too close, while risking value decline in Happ, JD, etc, but I'll see what they get for Happ at the deadline before I post too much on it.

[Slade]

Those know nothing guys knew enough to state that the hiring of Morales and the letting Encarnacion go was a big mistake. They also knew that Donaldson should have been traded before now, when the Jays will be lucky to get someone to take an oft injured old third baseman. They said that Happ should have been traded by now, and they are right on that one. Maybe no deals have materialized, but they were still right in that Happ should be gone before his value diminishes. Shapiro has improved the farm system, no doubt. But what other results have appeared. Those know nothings also said that. They said, who will be with this team in two years and other than perhaps Guerrero, that is a good question.

 

 

The trade deadline hasn't even passed yet, how can you even make the statement that not trading Happ by now was a mistake? Do you know what the returns were like?

[LGBJ29]

Those know nothing guys knew enough to state that the hiring of Morales and the letting Encarnacion go was a big mistake. They also knew that Donaldson should have been traded before now, when the Jays will be lucky to get someone to take an oft injured old third baseman. They said that Happ should have been traded by now, and they are right on that one. Maybe no deals have materialized, but they were still right in that Happ should be gone before his value diminishes. Shapiro has improved the farm system, no doubt. But what other results have appeared. Those know nothings also said that. They said, who will be with this team in two years and other than perhaps Guerrero, that is a good question.

 

They said there is no plan, and from all appearances, their plan is to try and suck while rebuilding. I know that I am probably the only one that holds this opinion, and I stated it when he was hired. I don't like Shapiro and never have. This team is muddling through and nothing is being done. This is another JP Ricciardi with a bigger payroll. Oh right, they traded Pearce, another oft injured player that Shapiro hired. Numerous members on this board have pushed for the trades of Stroman and Sanchez, and McCown said exactly the same thing. He doesn't like Stroman and it is obvious. So obviously, they do know something about baseball.

 

He also said that he would rather watch the youngsters come up and play than watch this boring, defensively challenged team. Nothing wrong with that. Guerrero is held out as the hope for the Jays, when there is very little pitching on the farm. Yes, he might be a superstar, but where is the supporting cast. So far there is Bichette and Jansen, where are they getting the rest of the team. And unless I am mistaken Guerrero was signed under AA, that guy that everyone hates.

 

 

Shapiro came to the Jays knowing the state of the farm system and the state of the team and their ages etc. If he couldn't convince management that a total rebuild was needed, IMO, he should have stayed where he was. We are coming up to year four of Shapiro and it will be a total washout year, so when does the success under Shapiro start? The guys on the McCown show were asking the same question and as Jays fans everyone should be asking that.

 

It's pretty comical how every single "mistake" they've made the radio heads saw it coming a mile away, yet no mention of their long list of successful moves. No mention how your boy bobcat saw Bichette and Kevin Smith available in rounds 2&4 recepectively last year. Trading a replacement level Fransisco Liriano for Teoscar Hernandez at the deadline etc. Yeah, those dude's with the 5 pm radio show who refer to Brian McCann as "That catcher who used to play in Atlanta" definitely know the market better than the professionals making phone calls every day.

[leaffie]

I didn't say, that not trading Happ by now was a mistake. What they said on the broadcast was that they were taking a chance of diminishing returns on Happ by still having him on the roster , and that is absolutely correct. He had three crap outings in a row. You don't think his stock went down just a little.

 

It doesn't really matter. He is one of a very few assets we have to trade that is going to bring much back, and that is what the discussion on McCown was about. This team should have been torn down last year at the latest and most everyone on this board knows it.

[Jonn]

Chris Rowley claimed off waivers by Texas. We never have to see that junk baller again.

[leaffie]

You know what, if that was the only mistake they made, but the team was moving forward, then I agree. This team has the same look that Ricciardis had for numerous years. Always the promise of the great draft prospects, but never a good team. This is the worst defensive team I can remember the Jays having in years, and that is no one's fault but the people doing the hiring.

 

I love the Jays, and my hope is for a team that plays good baseball, has a chance to win no matter the opponent, and has a long term future. I just don't see it, and I obviously hope I am wrong. I said the same thing when they hired Shapiro and got blasted , so I guess I will wait for another three years. But the point of this discussion was the McCown show and they didn't say anything on there that wasn't true.

[Krylian]

Pretty sure the Jays' farm right now is in a better state than any of the farms under AA.

 

Perhaps...but keep in mind that several of the pieces that we're salivating over in the minors were added during the AA regime.

[LGBJ29]

I didn't say, that not trading Happ by now was a mistake. What they said on the broadcast was that they were taking a chance of diminishing returns on Happ by still having him on the roster , and that is absolutely correct. He had three crap outings in a row. You don't think his stock went down just a little.

 

It doesn't really matter. He is one of a very few assets we have to trade that is going to bring much back, and that is what the discussion on McCown was about. This team should have been torn down last year at the latest and most everyone on this board knows it.

 

Right, and my point is Ross Atkins knows the market better than Bob McCown ever will.

[Krylian]

Right, and my point is Ross Atkins knows the market better than Bob McCown ever will.

 

Every GM knows the market better than any member of the media. That's not much of an argument though. Compare Atkins to other GM's and then decide where you think he ranks.

[leaffie]

well I guess when the results of Atkins knowledge become apparent, we can all see better results on the field.

[LGBJ29]

Every GM knows the market better than any member of the media. That's not much of an argument though. Compare Atkins to other GM's and then decide where you think he ranks.

 

So you agree that it's silly the initial discussion started with "Bob McCown was right when he said the market for JA Happ was optimized weeks ago." ?

[glory]

Toronto has some dumb ass fans and media. Masai trades for a top 5 player in basketball and they are butt hurt because an overrated guy who loves Toronto was sent in return. Now Alex builds a team with a one year window, Shapiro actually succeeds in getting to the playoffs in that window, and now gets criticized because something everyone knew what going to happen ended up happening (decline after 2016).

 

Insanity.

[BTS]

I'm surprised that people are saying that there's no plan. The plan has been pretty obvious and consistently executed over the last three years IMO: set the foundation for a team that can compete perpetually, while also taking a swing at a WC in the interim. They've been completely averse to moving prospects for veteran talent, and to committing more than 3 years to any player. We're watching a team attempt to transition from a team with a short contention window to a team that competes every year, and to do it without fielding complete dogshit.

 

I think they've done a nice job so far: the farm is now top-10 in the league, and we're starting to see a lot of depth being built beyond Vlad. They've made some moves that haven't worked out (Morales, Garcia), but the reason why they're sticking to these low-mid range moves at this stage is that no serious damage is done if they miss on them.