General 2018 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[BTS]

My memory probably isn't that good, but didn't JPR have a decent salary to work with? I mean he wasn't the Yanks or Red Sox, who were spending like crazy at that time, but once JPR left, didn't AA come in, clean house, reduce payroll significantly, rebuild the farm system and produce similar results to JPR? Perhaps by that time, baseball had chance some and teams couldn't just spend to buy talent in the draft.

 

I really hated JPR.

 

Payroll under JPR topped out in the middle of the pack in MLB - 16th in the league was the highest, I believe. Payroll has been towards the back of the top-10 in baseball every year since 2013, topping out at 5th in 2017. And that's with an actual investment in the draft and international markets, which didn't happen before.

 

The JPR years were certainly dark, but a huge part of that was Godfrey being terrible at his job and ownership not investing in the product.

[Jimcanuck]

It was pretty low when he came in ~45M. I remember him making a being deal about Delgado making a significant chunk of that. Then in 2006 Rogers committed to spending 210M over the next three years, 70M a year for 3 years

 

JPR definitely mismanaged the Delgado situation. Jays were at .500 at the 2003 trade deadline and held onto a pending superstar FA they knew they would not be able to resign. He also pissed off Delgado with some of his comments.

[Spanky99]

Estrada has a pain in the ass, at least it isn't his back.

 

 

 

[Brownie19]

Payroll under JPR topped out in the middle of the pack in MLB - 16th in the league was the highest, I believe. Payroll has been towards the back of the top-10 in baseball every year since 2013, topping out at 5th in 2017. And that's with an actual investment in the draft and international markets, which didn't happen before.

 

The JPR years were certainly dark, but a huge part of that was Godfrey being terrible at his job and ownership not investing in the product.

 

But didn't payroll drop under AA between 2009 and 2013?

[BTS]

But didn't payroll drop under AA between 2009 and 2013?

 

Yeah, the team cut payroll and let him rebuild for 3 years

[Captain Adama]

Yeah, the team cut payroll and let him rebuild for 3 years

 

The Jays spent an absolute f***ton on the draft before the new CBA draft rules came out.

[Krylian]

JPR definitely mismanaged the Delgado situation. Jays were at .500 at the 2003 trade deadline and held onto a pending superstar FA they knew they would not be able to resign. He also pissed off Delgado with some of his comments.

 

The Jays really aren't good at maximizing their assets are they? They could get pennies on the dollar for Donaldson

[TheHurl]

JPR had this "reckless spender rep". He inherited a team with a $76M payroll and in his "reckless spending" he increased payroll to a max of $96M in 2008. His last year with the Jays payroll was $80M. AA's low payroll was $70M in 2011 which his doubled by 2014. JPR may have lacked tact, but I feel his tenure is almost misunderstood. Overshadowed by the Romero/Tulo and Delgado situations.

[glory]

Wasn’t Delgado traded but he refused to waive his NTC?

[TheHurl]

Yeah, the team cut payroll and let him rebuild for 3 years

 

Payroll went down just once under AA. 2010 (his first year) it was $78M. 2011 it was $70M...then grew by at least $10M every year after. 2012 confused me as I couldn't figure out how they increased payroll but that was the year that they added like $10M of relievers.

[TheHurl]

Wasn’t Delgado traded but he refused to waive his NTC?

 

Also was hitting .220/.320/.430 at the time of the deadline as the third highest paid player in baseball. Essentially those with revisionist history are saying it was a missed opportunity but the only real opportunity to trade him for good value was after an 86-76 2003 season after a Doc and Wells breakout and a promise by Ted Rogers that there would be a payroll increase coming. Trading him at that time would be tough for anyone to justify. The Jays didn't offer Delgado arbitration after 2004 out of "fear" of overpaying him in order to secure some draft picks (which Riccardi didn't value properly). They also insulted him by discussing a 2 year contract extension during the season. JPR needed a PR person and i think he would have had a better rep here.

[Brownie19]

Payroll went down just once under AA. 2010 (his first year) it was $78M. 2011 it was $70M...then grew by at least $10M every year after. 2012 confused me as I couldn't figure out how they increased payroll but that was the year that they added like $10M of relievers.

 

I believe AA used those relievers to secure a f***ton of compensation draft picks.

[MarcoSanchez]

I believe AA used those relievers to secure a f***ton of compensation draft picks.

 

Made some amazing picks too. The accumulation of his efforts was 2015 and 2016. We should have won in 2015. That was our WS

[keggy]

JPR had this "reckless spender rep". He inherited a team with a $76M payroll and in his "reckless spending" he increased payroll to a max of $96M in 2008. His last year with the Jays payroll was $80M. AA's low payroll was $70M in 2011 which his doubled by 2014. JPR may have lacked tact, but I feel his tenure is almost misunderstood. Overshadowed by the Romero/Tulo and Delgado situations.

 

Payroll is set by ownership so that's not really relevant. JP's greatest impact was his draft performance, which decimated the organization for years.

[TheHurl]

Payroll is set by ownership so that's not really relevant. JP's greatest impact was his draft performance, which decimated the organization for years.

 

A little over-dramatic but he certainly didn't put resources into the draft. 2003 was good though

[Terminator]

JPR had this "reckless spender rep". He inherited a team with a $76M payroll and in his "reckless spending" he increased payroll to a max of $96M in 2008. His last year with the Jays payroll was $80M. AA's low payroll was $70M in 2011 which his doubled by 2014. JPR may have lacked tact, but I feel his tenure is almost misunderstood. Overshadowed by the Romero/Tulo and Delgado situations.

 

That year we got 2nd place with 87 wins I believe we had the 4th best run differential in baseball that year. Just some s*** luck. That AJ Burnett signing was ballsy but it was a good signing. He made some good moves.

 

He wasn't a bad GM and you could do worse but if I were an owner I'd be aiming higher.

[Terminator]

As for AA I don't care for his process but he made some good moves too. Trading Vernon Wells and trading for Donaldson were excellent moves, albeit they were no brainers. He also traded Thor away and traded for Tulo, both moves were flagged the moment they were done. We are still paying the price for those two moves. He also built the best team in baseball the year we won the AL East but it just wasn't built to last. It seems like we are the oldest team in the league every single year since then.

 

He's probably about as good as Riccardi to be fair.

[Brownie19]

As for AA I don't care for his process but he made some good moves too. Trading Vernon Wells and trading for Donaldson were excellent moves, albeit they were no brainers. He also traded Thor away and traded for Tulo, both moves were flagged the moment they were done. We are still paying the price for those two moves. He also built the best team in baseball the year we won the AL East but it just wasn't built to last. It seems like we are the oldest team in the league every single year since then.

 

He's probably about as good as Riccardi to be fair.

 

Did people really flag the Tulo trade as a bad move the second it happened? That's not exactly what I remember. I mean s*** luck that Tulo's been hurt so much and truly seems to have regressed a lot, but we also unloaded Jose Reyes at the expense of Jeff Hoffman - who looks like a bust anyway.

 

I suspect there was just as many people questioning the David Price trade and to date, we haven't missed anyone from that trade.

[TheHurl]

Did people really flag the Tulo trade as a bad move the second it happened? That's not exactly what I remember. I mean s*** luck that Tulo's been hurt so much and truly seems to have regressed a lot

 

Who could have saw Tulo getting hurt?

 

I suspect there was just as many people questioning the David Price trade and to date, we haven't missed anyone from that trade.

 

Matt Boyd and Daniel Norris would have been our 4th and 5th best starters in 2017 and Boyd our second best pitcher this year.

[Jonn]

Who could have saw Tulo getting hurt?

 

 

 

Matt Boyd and Daniel Norris would have been our 4th and 5th best starters in 2017 and Boyd our second best pitcher this year.

 

That trade was still worth it regardless. I am not really missing Matt Boyd that much. Hes 4th starter. That team with Price should have won the World Series. It still pisses me off we lost to Kansas City with all their luck.

[Brownie19]

Who could have saw Tulo getting hurt?

 

 

 

Matt Boyd and Daniel Norris would have been our 4th and 5th best starters in 2017 and Boyd our second best pitcher this year.

 

That doesn't mean Matt Boyd is good or anything to lose sleep over.

 

As for Tulo - I mean we got 4.1 WAR out of him over his first 172 games with the Jays - for what - say $25M? That's not bad value at all. I must have missed where everyone knew he'd go from a 2.9 WAR season to a 0 WAR season (missing 100 games) to missing all of 2018.

[TheHurl]

That trade was still worth it regardless. I am not really missing Matt Boyd that much. Hes 4th starter. That team with Price should have won the World Series. It still pisses me off we lost to Kansas City with all their luck.

 

yeah I'm not saying what is worth it or not (making the playoffs is huge for this team). But fans only seem to care about "superstars" getting dealt. There are a lot of really good depth pieces that the Jays have moved which would have this team in great shape right now.

[Orgfiller]

That trade was still worth it regardless. I am not really missing Matt Boyd that much. Hes 4th starter. That team with Price should have won the World Series. It still pisses me off we lost to Kansas City with all their luck.

 

Fun fact: Matt Boyd has been better than Aaron Sanchez the last two years and projects better RoS.

[TheHurl]

That doesn't mean Matt Boyd is good or anything to lose sleep over.

 

As for Tulo - I mean we got 4.1 WAR out of him over his first 172 games with the Jays - for what - say $25M? That's not bad value at all. I must have missed where everyone knew he'd go from a 2.9 WAR season to a 0 WAR season (missing 100 games) to missing all of 2018.

 

If only the team had seen a similar aged SS follow a similar pattern previously

[Laika]

Matt "Surplus Value" Boyd out pitching every Jays SP not named Happ sure is something.

 

The Tulo injury this year is just so weird. Weird timing, weird lack of information or publicity about the whole thing. He's going to miss the entire season and the extent of reporting will be reports from Mike Wilner every other months that he hopes to return this year.

[burlingtonbandit]

If Tulo's contract is insured and they get a big portion of the money back this year that's a big win.

[Abomination]

Matt "Surplus Value" Boyd out pitching every Jays SP not named Happ sure is something.

 

The Tulo injury this year is just so weird. Weird timing, weird lack of information or publicity about the whole thing. He's going to miss the entire season and the extent of reporting will be reports from Mike Wilner every other months that he hopes to return this year.

 

It was Matt "Surplus Runs" Boyd tonight.

[glory]

That year we got 2nd place with 87 wins I believe we had the 4th best run differential in baseball that year. Just some s*** luck. That AJ Burnett signing was ballsy but it was a good signing. He made some good moves.

 

He wasn't a bad GM and you could do worse but if I were an owner I'd be aiming higher.

 

2003: 86-76 (87 win pythag)

2004: 67-94 (71 win pythag)

2005: 80-82 (88 win pythag) - Halladay broke his leg and missed half the season that year

2006: 87-75 (86 win pythag)

2007: 83-79 (87 win pythag)

2008: 86-76 (93 win pythag) - had a better run differential than the Rays who won the division that year, and 4th best in MLB

 

JP built some good teams that were stuck in a division with two powerhouses, one wild card, and unbalanced schedule. He wasn't great or anything, but he was a solid GM.

 

If he knew how to draft at all, we'd remember him a lot more fondly for his work (his mouth is a different story, he and Keith Law were a match made in heaven, two douchebags working together).

[DigitalRock]

Matt "Surplus Value" Boyd out pitching every Jays SP not named Happ sure is something.

 

The Tulo injury this year is just so weird. Weird timing, weird lack of information or publicity about the whole thing. He's going to miss the entire season and the extent of reporting will be reports from Mike Wilner every other months that he hopes to return this year.

 

Tulo does not want to play in TO....sooner he s gone the better.

[Jimcanuck]

2003: 86-76 (87 win pythag)

2004: 67-94 (71 win pythag)

2005: 80-82 (88 win pythag) - Halladay broke his leg and missed half the season that year

2006: 87-75 (86 win pythag)

2007: 83-79 (87 win pythag)

2008: 86-76 (93 win pythag) - had a better run differential than the Rays who won the division that year, and 4th best in MLB

 

JP built some good teams that were stuck in a division with two powerhouses, one wild card, and unbalanced schedule. He wasn't great or anything, but he was a solid GM.

 

If he knew how to draft at all, we'd remember him a lot more fondly for his work (his mouth is a different story, he and Keith Law were a match made in heaven, two douchebags working together).

 

What I remember about those years is every year the Jays had a good team on paper, and when the lineup was expected to be a strength, the pitching was, and when the pitching was expected to be a strength, the lineup was. There just never was a year where things came together as expected, but that's baseball. It was a frustrating time to be a BJ fan.