Toronto Blue Jays Rebuilding Thread

[KevinGregg]

I really don't know how I would feel of the Jays went on like a 8-10 game winning streak right now.

 

I would be happy they're winning obviously because it sucks watching losing baseball. ... but just knowing that would f*** up any chances of jettisoning the guys that need to be punted for the betterment of the long term outlook would make me unhappy at the same time.

 

It's weird, but I'm kinda hoping for losing baseball from here on out for the sake of my sanity. Not like 110 loss losing baseball, just... right where they are would be fine. .500 or slightly under.

 

As a fan I am hoping for .600 ball from here out and a WS win.

 

A sustainable competitor isn't going to come from a few trades in one season. We have a front office dedicated to drafting and developing good young talent. We aren't used to seeing this since AA traded everyone before they made it up here, and JP had a ridiculous draft approach where he completely neglected upside in order to get polished players up here as fast as possible.

 

Let the draft and IFA signings bring in the young talent while still trying to compete at the major league level. The Jays brand is the strongest it's been in 30 years, we still lead the league in attendance and people still rock the Jays gear all across Canada. There's nothing to be gained from blowing it up and tanking except one or two more prospects who are more likely to be another Kyle Drabek than a Syndergaard.

[John_Havok]

I'm not advocating a blow up. That simply can't happen in thus market or nobody would go to games and a rogers would lose a big chunk of their cash cow for years.

 

Just saying that an effective re-tool might be slowed with a winning streak that would mask this teams very obvious deficiencies for the long term outlook of success. They will not win a WS as they are now and they are only getting older and worse. There's no way they're trading youth now for rentals or even aging players under control, so extra wins here and there only hurt the retool.

 

It's incredibly hard to build a team through the draft if you're always drafting 20th or lower every year and not trading aging players for younger prospects - unless you're willing to spend money to fix holes.

 

Chicago and Houston went full blowup and are reaping the benefits.

 

The Yankees on the other hand retooled very effectively in short order and will be reaping the benefits very soon. Big advantage because of their willingness to spend.

 

The Jays need to follow the Yankees model this time.

[Brownie19]

As a fan I am hoping for .600 ball from here out and a WS win.

 

A sustainable competitor isn't going to come from a few trades in one season. We have a front office dedicated to drafting and developing good young talent. We aren't used to seeing this since AA traded everyone before they made it up here, and JP had a ridiculous draft approach where he completely neglected upside in order to get polished players up here as fast as possible.

 

Let the draft and IFA signings bring in the young talent while still trying to compete at the major league level. The Jays brand is the strongest it's been in 30 years, we still lead the league in attendance and people still rock the Jays gear all across Canada. There's nothing to be gained from blowing it up and tanking except one or two more prospects who are more likely to be another Kyle Drabek than a Syndergaard.

 

very fair argument - although I don't agree with the last line. Blowing it up - if done right with this FO, could lead to sustainable success....in fact, it could accelerate the sustainable success. It's hard not to look at what the Yankees did last year, adding Frazier and G.Torres and not salivate at the core of young talent they have amassed. There is plenty to gain by blowing it up (if done right) - although that may come with some short term pain.

[John_Havok]

very fair argument - although I don't agree with the last line. Blowing it up - if done right with this FO, could lead to sustainable success....in fact, it could accelerate the sustainable success. It's hard not to look at what the Yankees did last year, adding Frazier and G.Torres and not salivate at the core of young talent they have amassed. There is plenty to gain by blowing it up (if done right) - although that may come with some short term pain.

 

Yankees didn't blow up, they retooled.

[Captain Adama]

I'm not advocating a blow up. That simply can't happen in thus market or nobody would go to games and a rogers would lose a big chunk of their cash cow for years.

 

Just saying that an effective re-tool might be slowed with a winning streak that would mask this teams very obvious deficiencies for the long term outlook of success. They will not win a WS as they are now and they are only getting older and worse. There's no way they're trading youth now for rentals or even aging players under control, so extra wins here and there only hurt the retool.

 

It's incredibly hard to build a team through the draft if you're always drafting 20th or lower every year and not trading aging players for younger prospects - unless you're willing to spend money to fix holes.

 

Chicago and Houston went full blowup and are reaping the benefits.

 

The Yankees on the other hand retooled very effectively in short order and will be reaping the benefits very soon. Big advantage because of their willingness to spend.

 

The Jays need to follow the Yankees model this time.

 

Add Milwaukee to this list, they're done an excellent job thus far.

[Abomination]

very fair argument - although I don't agree with the last line. Blowing it up - if done right with this FO, could lead to sustainable success....in fact, it could accelerate the sustainable success. It's hard not to look at what the Yankees did last year, adding Frazier and G.Torres and not salivate at the core of young talent they have amassed. There is plenty to gain by blowing it up (if done right) - although that may come with some short term pain.

 

The Yankees really didn't blow it up though. They retooled, which is what likely happens with us (maybe not with the same results)

[Brownie19]

I'm not advocating a blow up. That simply can't happen in thus market or nobody would go to games and a rogers would lose a big chunk of their cash cow for years.

 

Just saying that an effective re-tool might be slowed with a winning streak that would mask this teams very obvious deficiencies for the long term outlook of success. They will not win a WS as they are now and they are only getting older and worse. There's no way they're trading youth now for rentals or even aging players under control, so extra wins here and there only hurt the retool.

 

It's incredibly hard to build a team through the draft if you're always drafting 20th or lower every year and not trading aging players for younger prospects - unless you're willing to spend money to fix holes.

 

Chicago and Houston went full blowup and are reaping the benefits.

 

The Yankees on the other hand retooled very effectively in short order and will be reaping the benefits very soon. Big advantage because of their willingness to spend.

 

The Jays need to follow the Yankees model this time.

 

Someone just said Houston was the most profitable franchise in the league the year they had a $22M payroll and 110 loses.

[John_Havok]

Someone just said Houston was the most profitable franchise in the league the year they had a $22M payroll and 110 loses.

 

Toronto isn't Houston. The Jays don't benefit from TV deals like every other market does because of Rogers and how they have evry thing set up.

[Bobthe4th]

Yankees didn't blow up, they retooled.

 

Yankees are a great example of why retool can be just as successful as rebuild.

 

Most of the big market teams have too much to lose by tanking. Retooling doesn't always work, but then all a rebuild guarantees is a few years of awful baseball.

[Sammy225]

I don't think they need to sell everyone but i feel like everyone should be available for the right price. I really don't want to see them buying right now even if they do get back into it this month. I think you sell on Happ because he could get you back a decent return, depending on if Estrada gets back on track this month he could bring back a alright return but if teams are willing to give you a good price on Stroman, Sanchez or even Osuna you should be listening.

 

I am afraid if you stand pat and keep this core a of players we are going to be doing what we did for the majority of AA tenure and that is a .500 team with nothing really on the horizon.

[glory]

The Yankees were able to retool because they traded for Didi, Castro, and Hicks for practically nothing, and their vets were able to bide time for their younger players to develop. THey moved McCann when Sanchez was ready, moved Beltran when Judge was ready, and so on.

 

The Jays can try to win a WC spot every year if that's what makes the pockets of Rogers happy, but unless they get long term pieces in trades like the Yankees got above to supplement their old as dirt roster now, then it will be hard to keep the big league team good enough while waiting for the next wave to come up.

[Dick_Pole]

very fair argument - although I don't agree with the last line. Blowing it up - if done right with this FO, could lead to sustainable success....in fact, it could accelerate the sustainable success. It's hard not to look at what the Yankees did last year, adding Frazier and G.Torres and not salivate at the core of young talent they have amassed. There is plenty to gain by blowing it up (if done right) - although that may come with some short term pain.

 

But the Yankees didn't blow it up last year. They went 84-78.

 

Examples of incompetent teams having to resort to blowing it up recently because they otherwise lack the skills to develop consistent winners: Phillies, Astros, Nationals. Cubs would be there too...they come close except that the team's success had as much to do with shrewd/lucky moves like picking up and coaching Arrieta into an ace than it does with their years of ultra-suck and stockpiling of draft picks.

 

Meanwhile the Yankees have yet to record a losing season this century and the Cardinals have one under their belt.

 

This is what these "blow it up people" don't understand. It's not that people who are against blowing it up don't care about building for the future. It's that we expect more from Shapiro and Atkins than taking the easy way out.

 

I have high expectations from Shapiro and Atkins. I want them to build for the future AND maximize the team's present potential.

[Jonn]

The Yankees were able to retool because they traded for Didi, Castro, and Hicks for practically nothing, and their vets were able to bide time for their younger players to develop. THey moved McCann when Sanchez was ready, moved Beltran when Judge was ready, and so on.

 

The Jays can try to win a WC spot every year if that's what makes the pockets of Rogers happy, but unless they get long term pieces in trades like the Yankees got above to supplement their old as dirt roster now, then it will be hard to keep the big league team good enough while waiting for the next wave to come up.

 

Yankees have made some incredible trades. Definitely would like to take a page out of that playbook. Have to credit the player development staff for actually turning Hicks and Didi into good hitters. While finding Castro's stroke again

[Slade]

After a conference call with the baseball operations staff on Friday afternoon, the Blue Jays front office has decided what their plans will be for trades in July, according to a source familiar with the situation. Specifically, the team is open to trading any of their four players with fewer than a year of control left, namely Marco Estrada, Joe Smith, Francisco Liriano, and Jose Bautista. Additionally, the club will also listen to trade offers on a couple of players who will hit the free agent market after 2018, like Steve Pearce or J.A. Happ, but are in no hurry to move them.

 

 

http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/07/07/source-blue-jays-finalize-plans-for-july-trades/

[Spanky99]

http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/07/07/source-blue-jays-finalize-plans-for-july-trades/

 

SOURCE: BLUE JAYS FINALIZE PLANS FOR JULY TRADES

 

BY GIDEON TURK JULY 7, 2017

 

After a conference call with the baseball operations staff on Friday afternoon, the Blue Jays front office has decided what their plans will be for trades in July, according to a source familiar with the situation. Specifically, the team is open to trading any of their four players with fewer than a year of control left, namely Marco Estrada, Joe Smith, Francisco Liriano, and Jose Bautista. Additionally, the club will also listen to trade offers on a couple of players who will hit the free agent market after 2018, like Steve Pearce or J.A. Happ, but are in no hurry to move them. This lines up with what Mark Shapiro has been saying all along in the media, specifically to Shi Davidi of Sportsnet and Scott MacArthur of TSN Radio.

 

However, the source also mentioned that the team will not be looking to dump salaries and start a rebuild. The trades must make sense from a baseball standpoint for the club at this point, and the team is even open to taking salary on in trades like they did last year when acquiring Francisco Liriano from the Pittsburgh Pirates. The front office is intent on improving the team for the rest of this season, 2018, and beyond.

 

Despite rumours from various members of the national media in the United States, like Jon Morosi, Buster Olney, and Jon Heyman, the Blue Jays have no plans to trade big pieces like Josh Donaldson, Roberto Osuna, Marcus Stroman, Kevin Pillar, or Aaron Sanchez according to the same club source. The team would need to be “completely overwhelmed by players with multiple years of control” in order to move any of those players.

 

The team has had scouts on assignments across baseball in the past few weeks, and that will continue until the July 31st deadline and even after it. Because of this, anytime you read “Blue Jays are scouting Player X,” take it with a grain of salt as the Blue Jays are scouting virtually everybody in the league to do their due diligence.

[Dick_Pole]

Yankees have made some incredible trades. Definitely would like to take a page out of that playbook. Have to credit the player development staff for actually turning Hicks and Didi into good hitters. While finding Castro's stroke again

 

I think the Jays have been big winners overall in the trade route save for AA's eight weeks of Beeston-induced fury in the winter of 2012. As far as developing hitters. Bautista, EE....Donaldson was good in Oakland but he's been unreal while here. Smoak finally picking it up after a few years. This team has been able to get the best out of its hitters for a while. Maybe not the "prospects" but age 28-30 seems to be the major breakout year for Jays hitters. Stockpiling Smoaks off the trash heap and hoping to strike gold on a few of them might be a good way for this team to compete while re-tooling.

[Bobthe4th]

http://toronto.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2017/07/07/source-blue-jays-finalize-plans-for-july-trades/

 

Nice, this makes me happy.

[Dick_Pole]

SOURCE: BLUE JAYS FINALIZE PLANS FOR JULY TRADES

 

BY GIDEON TURK JULY 7, 2017

 

After a conference call with the baseball operations staff on Friday afternoon, the Blue Jays front office has decided what their plans will be for trades in July, according to a source familiar with the situation. Specifically, the team is open to trading any of their four players with fewer than a year of control left, namely Marco Estrada, Joe Smith, Francisco Liriano, and Jose Bautista. Additionally, the club will also listen to trade offers on a couple of players who will hit the free agent market after 2018, like Steve Pearce or J.A. Happ, but are in no hurry to move them. This lines up with what Mark Shapiro has been saying all along in the media, specifically to Shi Davidi of Sportsnet and Scott MacArthur of TSN Radio.

 

However, the source also mentioned that the team will not be looking to dump salaries and start a rebuild. The trades must make sense from a baseball standpoint for the club at this point, and the team is even open to taking salary on in trades like they did last year when acquiring Francisco Liriano from the Pittsburgh Pirates. The front office is intent on improving the team for the rest of this season, 2018, and beyond.

 

Despite rumours from various members of the national media in the United States, like Jon Morosi, Buster Olney, and Jon Heyman, the Blue Jays have no plans to trade big pieces like Josh Donaldson, Roberto Osuna, Marcus Stroman, Kevin Pillar, or Aaron Sanchez according to the same club source. The team would need to be “completely overwhelmed by players with multiple years of control” in order to move any of those players.

 

The team has had scouts on assignments across baseball in the past few weeks, and that will continue until the July 31st deadline and even after it. Because of this, anytime you read “Blue Jays are scouting Player X,” take it with a grain of salt as the Blue Jays are scouting virtually everybody in the league to do their due diligence.

 

Excellent. Only thing missing is the Happ for Happ word play.

[Bobthe4th]

SOURCE: BLUE JAYS FINALIZE PLANS FOR JULY TRADES

 

BY GIDEON TURK JULY 7, 2017

 

After a conference call with the baseball operations staff on Friday afternoon, the Blue Jays front office has decided what their plans will be for trades in July, according to a source familiar with the situation. Specifically, the team is open to trading any of their four players with fewer than a year of control left, namely Marco Estrada, Joe Smith, Francisco Liriano, and Jose Bautista. Additionally, the club will also listen to trade offers on a couple of players who will hit the free agent market after 2018, like Steve Pearce or J.A. Happ, but are in no hurry to move them. This lines up with what Mark Shapiro has been saying all along in the media, specifically to Shi Davidi of Sportsnet and Scott MacArthur of TSN Radio.

 

However, the source also mentioned that the team will not be looking to dump salaries and start a rebuild. The trades must make sense from a baseball standpoint for the club at this point, and the team is even open to taking salary on in trades like they did last year when acquiring Francisco Liriano from the Pittsburgh Pirates. The front office is intent on improving the team for the rest of this season, 2018, and beyond.

 

Despite rumours from various members of the national media in the United States, like Jon Morosi, Buster Olney, and Jon Heyman, the Blue Jays have no plans to trade big pieces like Josh Donaldson, Roberto Osuna, Marcus Stroman, Kevin Pillar, or Aaron Sanchez according to the same club source. The team would need to be “completely overwhelmed by players with multiple years of control” in order to move any of those players.

 

The team has had scouts on assignments across baseball in the past few weeks, and that will continue until the July 31st deadline and even after it. Because of this, anytime you read “Blue Jays are scouting Player X,” take it with a grain of salt as the Blue Jays are scouting virtually everybody in the league to do their due diligence.

 

That's just what I wanted.

[Ray]

Absolutely no point in keeping either Liriano or Estrada if we're clearly out of it by the deadline. Eat their salary and I bet you can still get something worthwhile out of them. If you can flip either for a McGuire/Ramirez type lottery ticket, its better than just letting them walk at the end of a losing season.

 

Not sure who would want Bautista unless we eat salary as well. His bat has been firmly average this season.

 

Perhaps we can package Joe Smith + either Estrada or Liriano to a contender. Either salary to magnify the return. Wouldn't be a bad option some contender to get a good bullpen piece and another starter for down the stretch.

[Jimcanuck]

SOURCE: BLUE JAYS FINALIZE PLANS FOR JULY TRADES

 

BY GIDEON TURK JULY 7, 2017

 

After a conference call with the baseball operations staff on Friday afternoon, the Blue Jays front office has decided what their plans will be for trades in July, according to a source familiar with the situation. Specifically, the team is open to trading any of their four players with fewer than a year of control left, namely Marco Estrada, Joe Smith, Francisco Liriano, and Jose Bautista. Additionally, the club will also listen to trade offers on a couple of players who will hit the free agent market after 2018, like Steve Pearce or J.A. Happ, but are in no hurry to move them. This lines up with what Mark Shapiro has been saying all along in the media, specifically to Shi Davidi of Sportsnet and Scott MacArthur of TSN Radio.

 

However, the source also mentioned that the team will not be looking to dump salaries and start a rebuild. The trades must make sense from a baseball standpoint for the club at this point, and the team is even open to taking salary on in trades like they did last year when acquiring Francisco Liriano from the Pittsburgh Pirates. The front office is intent on improving the team for the rest of this season, 2018, and beyond.

 

Despite rumours from various members of the national media in the United States, like Jon Morosi, Buster Olney, and Jon Heyman, the Blue Jays have no plans to trade big pieces like Josh Donaldson, Roberto Osuna, Marcus Stroman, Kevin Pillar, or Aaron Sanchez according to the same club source. The team would need to be “completely overwhelmed by players with multiple years of control” in order to move any of those players.

 

The team has had scouts on assignments across baseball in the past few weeks, and that will continue until the July 31st deadline and even after it. Because of this, anytime you read “Blue Jays are scouting Player X,” take it with a grain of salt as the Blue Jays are scouting virtually everybody in the league to do their due diligence.

 

Pillar is a big piece lol

 

So JD, Stroman, and Sanchez are available for trade

 

This is just softening up the fanbase

[Spanky99]

Pillar is a big piece lol

 

So JD, Stroman, and Sanchez are available for trade

 

This is just softening up the fanbase

 

You don't say...

[Brownie19]

But the Yankees didn't blow it up last year. They went 84-78.

 

Examples of incompetent teams having to resort to blowing it up recently because they otherwise lack the skills to develop consistent winners: Phillies, Astros, Nationals. Cubs would be there too...they come close except that the team's success had as much to do with shrewd/lucky moves like picking up and coaching Arrieta into an ace than it does with their years of ultra-suck and stockpiling of draft picks.

 

Meanwhile the Yankees have yet to record a losing season this century and the Cardinals have one under their belt.

 

This is what these "blow it up people" don't understand. It's not that people who are against blowing it up don't care about building for the future. It's that we expect more from Shapiro and Atkins than taking the easy way out.

 

I have high expectations from Shapiro and Atkins. I want them to build for the future AND maximize the team's present potential.

 

Fair point. I'm not suggesting I'm 100% for blowing it up to the bare bones and losing 100 games for 3-4 years. I was just arguing that I don't agree with OP's suggestion that there's nothing to gain from blowing it up.

 

Blow it up, retool - these are all subjective definitions guys.

 

Oh - and I think the Cards run is nearly over. They suck.

[glory]

Yankees have made some incredible trades. Definitely would like to take a page out of that playbook. Have to credit the player development staff for actually turning Hicks and Didi into good hitters. While finding Castro's stroke again

 

All they gave up to get those three (a good SS, OF, and 2B) were Shane Greene, John Ryan Murphy, and Adam Warren. Basically a couple of relievers and a back-up catcher. Cashman has been great the past few years. Don't forget when he traded Chapman, Miller, and Beltran, the Yankees were actually over .500. He saw right through their mediocrity and made the logical choice.

 

So far Shatkins has gotten one break with Smoak breaking out. Maybe they can move Estrada, Liriano, Bautista, and Smith for pieces like Hicks/Didi/Castro on other teams. They will certainly need to in order to be competitive in 2018. That seems like more and more of a long shot.

[Spanky99]

Fair point. I'm not suggesting I'm 100% for blowing it up to the bare bones and losing 100 games for 3-4 years. I was just arguing that I don't agree with OP's suggestion that there's nothing to gain from blowing it up.

 

Blow it up, retool - these are all subjective definitions guys.

 

Oh - and I think the Cards run is nearly over. They suck.

 

Cards, for how long? Same as Pitt...

[Spanky99]

All they gave up to get those three (a good SS, OF, and 2B) were Shane Greene, John Ryan Murphy, and Adam Warren. Basically a couple of relievers and a back-up catcher. Cashman has been great the past few years. Don't forget when he traded Chapman, Miller, and Beltran, the Yankees were actually over .500. He saw right through their mediocrity and made the logical choice.

 

So far Shatkins has gotten one break with Smoak breaking out. Maybe they can move Estrada, Liriano, Bautista, and Smith for pieces like Hicks/Didi/Castro on other teams. They will certainly need to in order to be competitive in 2018. That seems like more and more of a long shot.

 

Give this FO a chance man... Yankees were still loaded, when they stepped in, unlike the T dot.

[glory]

Give this FO a chance man... Yankees were still loaded, when they stepped in, unlike the T dot.

 

I love this FO. I just don't think winning in 2018 is all that likely unless they pull out some great deals in the next few months.

[Spanky99]

I love this FO. I just don't think winning in 2018 is all that likely unless they pull out some great deals in the next few months.

 

I agree with that.

[Key22]

The Jays have had the old Leafs mindset of adding some vets to not great teams and then they wonder why they don't win. Start fresh fee up the dollars and take a year or two back to become a perennial contender with a steady diet of farm system talent - it would be nice to get lucky like the Yankees with Sanchez and Judge (or hire better scouts).

 

The problem is AA did such a great job of getting rid of Vernon Wells an untradeable albatross but then he gave us Tulo - and untradeable albatross. The team has to somehow get rid of this guy - trade him and $15million or something and just use Goins at short.

 

If you get a great offer for JD pounce on it. Everything must go. Fire sale now. The team is old.Everyone on last year contracts - thanks but goodbye.

 

Pillar - thanks but goodbye - if someone offers us something special goodbye - let's fact it - he's a defensive only outfielder. He is not an OBP guy so at best on a very good team he would be a 9-hole hitter. The older he gets the worse his Defense and speed. A lot of teams do sort of like this kind of player - but if you can land some sort of Carlos Delgado in double A or something - goodbye.

 

Full rebuild - Create the farm system the envy of all of baseball and watch them all come up and blow the league away.

 

This team has no shot at winning - even if we make into the playoffs - we'd be killed. I knew it the last two years. We don't have the the type of team that can beat A pitchers on their game - you have to be able to be situational hitters - we don't have that.

 

If someone offers us something big for Smoak - you have to trade him as well. Sell high on him because you know our luck with Michael Saunders.

 

I really want to see this team targeting Paul Molitor, Jose Altuve and Wade Boggs kinds of hitters. High OBP, Smart hitters, situational hitters, guys who can run (not necessarily steal) - Guys who can work pitchers and counts. Easier said than done I suppose. And go after the flamethrowers - the 100mph guys in drafts and trades - more chances to get Aces with these guys and if they have off games with secondary stuff - they can often beat you with the fastball.

 

And if you trade everyone - we finish near last and get better draft picks - stating the obvious I know but screw the average fans - so what if attendance is 14000 a game - your payroll will go down to $40 million so you don't need 40,000 a game.

[Governator]

Rogers isn't going to allow us to be bottom feeding s*** for 4 years in hopes that we find treasure in the future.

 

Baseball is nothing like hockey and building a sustainable winning team doesn't have to be tear it all down and start over. The risk/reward usually isn't worth it and the 4th biggest market is never going to have a $40m payroll.