GDT: Toronto Blue Jays @ New York Yankees- Game 1/3

[Jimcanuck]

This team is getting -1 to 1 extrapolated to full season WAR out of several spots on the diamond. That won't continue nor is it likely occur moving forward. With a decent rotation locked up through next season, the reigning MVP in the fold and a healthy payroll there is not reason to gut the team and labor through 5 miserable seasons. I definitely think we could field a competitive team next season.

 

This isn't basketball where you tank for top picks nor is it football where you do the same to get a top QB. Player development will always be key over having top picks.

 

Now if we are still not looking good for a WC spot come July, then sure let's make some trades - particularly pending FA's who we are unlikely to resign. But I just don't think we need to blow the whole team up and rebuild Cubs style.

 

Jays took the retooling approach from 1995 until 2013-2015 when they decided to gut the farm in an attempt to win it all.

 

Retooling approach can work if you have a good complement of cost controlled and improving youth. Jays do not have that.... Travis, Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna is light compared to other teams. And please, no one mention Pillar.

[Belliss101]

The idea that the Cubs are where they are because they sucked forever is erroneous. They're where they are because they have fantastic management and make great decisions. Look how their key players were acquired:

 

Fowler - acquired via trade for Valbuena and Straily

Russell - acquired via trade for Samardzija

Rizzo - acquired via trade for Cashner

Arrieta - acquired via trade for Feldman

Hendricks - acquired via trade for Dempster

Rondon - claimed off waivers

Heyward - signed

Zobrist - signed

Lackey - signed

Lester - signed

Hammel - signed

 

Really it's just Bryant that required a top pick, but overall the team was build meticulously with shrewd trades and smart signings.

 

Mind doing the same thing for the Mets? Preach BTS

[gruber92]

Nobody said that. I believe people told you that he doesn't go the other way more often than Edwin, or whoever it was you were saying should be more like Ortiz.

 

I'm pretty sure somebody credible here said that Ortiz hardly ever doesn't go the other way. He also asked if i actually watch Red Sox games to know this. I'm saying he goes the other way more often than people think vs the shift, especially if it scores runs. EE and Bautista really need to take note and serve those breaking balls on the outer half into right field, especially with two strikes. The whole Red Sox approach is beautiful, and we have the talent to do the exact same thing without sacrificing much power. It's having a plan and sticking to it, instead of having nine individual approaches. Work the offense as a unit, not as individuals. JB and EE's contract situation is wreaking havoc in their heads, more so EE.

[Boxcar]

Ortiz going the other way against the shift to score two runs in his first AB.

 

But Ortiz never sacrifices power to beat the shift to score runs, right guys?

 

Yeah totes. They just keep using the shift on him because they feel like it, totally not based on quantifiable data or anything.

[4thOFan]

Ortiz is a good baseball hitter.

[Spanky99]

Ortiz is a good baseball hitter.

 

How about that Kalish kid?

[bones10]

lol glad I missed that s*** show of a game.

 

How many runs are we getting off Sabathia? 2?

[Spanky99]

Ortiz going the other way against the shift to score two runs in his first AB.

 

But Ortiz never sacrifices power to beat the shift to score runs, right guys?

 

Wat??? The data shows he rolls over more often to RF, his hits to LF are off the wall where they play him straight up? You don't get it, the wall helps his spray chart stats to LF, meat. He hardly ever hits a groundball to the left side, hence the shift.

[Terminator]

The idea that the Cubs are where they are because they sucked forever is erroneous.

 

Agreed. But they did suck forever (5 years of 5th place finishes in a row) and as you've just proven it wasn't necessary for them to labor through all of that. So when I hear the word fire sale and trade Donaldson it's a little alarming.

[Spanky99]

Agreed. But they did suck forever (5 years of 5th place finishes in a row) and as you've just proven it wasn't necessary for them to labor through all of that. So when I hear the word fire sale and trade Donaldson it's a little alarming.

 

Don't worry, BTS moved with the FO to LAD @ CHC.

[Terminator]

Mind doing the same thing for the Mets? Preach BTS

 

Very few of their players were acquired in the type of firesale trade that people here are suggesting.

 

Syndergaard and D'Arnaud obviously, but the majority of that team was acquired because they drafted and developed the talent (Harvey, DeGrom, Conforto, Matz) or made the opposite kind of trade where they traded prospects for guys like Cespedes. If anything, they also relied on aging stars longer than they should have in Wright, Colon, etc.

[Spanky99]

The idea that the Cubs are where they are because they sucked forever is erroneous. They're where they are because they have fantastic management and make great decisions. Look how their key players were acquired:

 

Fowler - acquired via trade for Valbuena and Straily

Russell - acquired via trade for Samardzija

Rizzo - acquired via trade for Cashner

Arrieta - acquired via trade for Feldman

Hendricks - acquired via trade for Dempster

Rondon - claimed off waivers

Heyward - signed

Zobrist - signed

Lackey - signed

Lester - signed

Hammel - signed

 

Really it's just Bryant that required a top pick, but overall the team was built meticulously with shrewd trades and smart signings.

 

How can you not bring up Schwarber...

[Spanky99]

Injured himself masturbating in the dugout.

 

You're a sick bird man.

[BTS]

Agreed. But they did suck forever (5 years of 5th place finishes in a row) and as you've just proven it wasn't necessary for them to labor through all of that. So when I hear the word fire sale and trade Donaldson it's a little alarming.

 

I was agreeing with you. There's no reason to suck for 5 years.

 

I do think a Donaldson trade is worth exploring in the offseason though. In the near future a decision has to be made on whether or not they're going to be the team to give him $200+M. If the answer to that is 'no', his trade value is only dropping over the next two years.

[BTS]

How can you not bring up Schwarber...

 

Because I sorted their roster by fWAR and didn't notice his -0.1 total.

[Spanky99]

Because I sorted their roster by fWAR and didn't notice his -0.1 total.

 

Had he played, it'd been even sicker. Yer dumn.

[Terminator]

Jays took the retooling approach from 1995 until 2013-2015 when they decided to gut the farm in an attempt to win it all.

 

Retooling approach can work if you have a good complement of cost controlled and improving youth. Jays do not have that.... Travis, Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna is light compared to other teams. And please, no one mention Pillar.

 

Yeah I mean the Giants take the retooling approach and they are quite good year after year. Jays need to get better at player development more than anything.

 

And I agree, the 2013-2015 approach isn't very sustainable. I'm not suggesting we continue to gut what's left of the farm though like AA did. I am suggesting that we resign those who are willing to do so at costs that benefit the team (perhaps Smoak and Saunders?) and not trade players who are under control (Donaldson) just because we want to acquire as many young players as possible.

 

This team isn't complete s*** moving forward. We can retool it. We don't have to blow it up.

[Jimcanuck]

Yeah I mean the Giants take the retooling approach and they are quite good year after year. Jays need to get better at player development more than anything.

 

And I agree, the 2013-2015 approach isn't very sustainable. I'm not suggesting we continue to gut what's left of the farm though like AA did. I am suggesting that we resign those who are willing to do so at costs that benefit the team (perhaps Smoak and Saunders?) and not trade players who are under control (Donaldson) just because we want to acquire as many young players as possible.

 

This team isn't complete s*** moving forward. We can retool it. We don't have to blow it up.

 

I don't share your optimism about the Jays chances in 2017 and 2018. Bautista and EE are going to be gone most likely, Martin and Tulo will continue to decline. Two more years of control on JD after this season - after which he's not likely going to sign with a losing ballclub.

[TheGrandslamMan]

There's definitely gonna be some lean years in the near distant future. I was really hoping this season would be another fun, competitive one but they've already dug themselves a pretty big hole and things aren't looking up at all.

[TheGrandslamMan]

Not even into June yet and they're already 7 behind a Boston club that isn't slowing down and currently 6.5 behind the O's.

 

You fall much further back and the percentages to make the playoffs start getting dicey and unlikely.

[Spanky99]

There's definitely gonna be some lean years in the near distant future. I was really hoping this season would be another fun, competitive one but they've already dug themselves a pretty big hole and things aren't looking up at all.

 

Shut up!

[TheGrandslamMan]

Sorry to come across as negative. I do applaud your consistent optimism but I do think this team has some big fundamental problems.

 

I still expect the offense to heat up, but I don't think it's gonna be as deadly without the supporting cast rolling on all cylinders like it was last season. There's gonna be no magical Colabello season, not really expecting Pillar to repeat with his bat and I'm not convinced that Smoaks bat is potent enough to play at first. Martin and Tulo really need to get their s*** together.

[SAAviour]

Sorry, haven't read this thread and I'm sure this was discussed....the game was lost when I believe in the 3rd inning, Noodle bat Thole is walked to lead off inning, Bautista singles for 1st and 2nd with none out, and the league MVP decides to bunt?!? Followed by EE swinging at garbage in a horrendous at bat. This team just isn't good.

I'm getting close to accepting the best course of action is a fire sale at the deadline. Saving 2 years of re build is looking good to me right now.

[glory]

Selling off all the impending free agent vets at the deadline is the best course for this team. The worst thing that can happen to this team is to keep everyone and not make the playoffs. They really can't afford to add anyone at the deadline since the farm system is s*** and the actual good prospects shouldn't be traded, so it's either keep this team together and hope for a run, or do the sensible thing and try to avoid more years of misery by adding prospects at the deadline that hopefully can help the team out in 2017-beyond.

[Governator]

With EE playing 1B last night against a LHP over Smoak, I'm wondering if they plan to build innings on EE? Makes him more desirable for trades in both leagues as a rental if he'd agree to a move.

[Governator]

What would our roster look like for August/September if we did sell all pending free agents?

 

Maybe something like:

 

Travis 2B

Donaldson 3B

Tulowitzki SS

Colabello 1B/DH

Pillar CF

Martin C

Dominguez 1B/DH

Pompey LF

Carerra RF

 

Barney

Jimenez?

???

???

 

Hutch in the rotation when Sanchez moves to pen. Would probably need an arm coming back if Dickey/Thole moved unless Floyd/Chavez moved up.

 

Honestly, we'd probably still hover around .460 - .475% while restocking the prospect pool - Our defense would still be strong except for Carrera and 1B, starting pitching would be okay, BP would still suck unless something came from the trades and the offense couldn't do worse than it does now, might even improve with new bodies hitting to their capabilities. Travis/Pompey/Pillar/Carrera would create a lot of speed when they are on and not rely on the solo shots.

[BlueJayWay]

There's definitely gonna be some lean years in the near distant future. I was really hoping this season would be another fun, competitive one but they've already dug themselves a pretty big hole and things aren't looking up at all.

Same. I knew after this year they'd have to retool a bit. I expected the team would be good this year and hopefully make the playoffs and then whatever happens after that happens.

 

It's very disappointing the way things have been going this year. If they looked this bad next year I would have expected it and been a lot more sanguine about it...

[BTS]

If there is a sell, the biggest potential move would be getting rid of Tulo. I don't imagine anyone would take on Martin's 3/60, but there might be a window to give away Tulo's 4/78.

[Brownie19]

Same. I knew after this year they'd have to retool a bit. I expected the team would be good this year and hopefully make the playoffs and then whatever happens after that happens.

 

It's very disappointing the way things have been going this year. If they looked this bad next year I would have expected it and been a lot more sanguine about it...

 

This sums it up for me too.

[Governator]

If there is a sell, the biggest potential move would be getting rid of Tulo. I don't imagine anyone would take on Martin's 3/60, but there might be a window to give away Tulo's 4/78.

 

He is hitting the ball a lot better, he's actually over >100 wRC+ for the month of May so he certainly might build up some trade value still by the deadline.

 

Doesn't he have a no trade clause in place after being moved to us?