Ten years of Shapiro draft picks as a GM

[reedjohnsonfan]

Does that seem smart though? You think/know a guy will bust, why not trade him for something you like?

 

You still need to move prospects to try and win a championship if you think it could work out. The David Price trade was great, if Shapiro is going to shy away from making a trade deadline acquisition I'll stop supporting him.

[BTS]

Does that seem smart though? You think/know a guy will bust, why not trade him for something you like?

 

Other teams likely want the best guys in your system. How often would you be an a position to trade a highly regarded prospect with big market value that you're pretty sure will bust? If Toronto, for example, had the payroll restrictions of Cleveland or TB, Syndergaard, d'Arnaud, Desclafani, Hechavarria, and Dyson putting up tons of wins for league min on other teams would have absolutely crippled the team's chances to compete.

 

And evaluation is hard. Toronto drafted Sanchez and Syndergaard, and still preferred Sanchez to Syndergaard at the time of the Dickey trade. They had Yan Gomes in the system for half a decade and didn't think he could catch. They had JPA in the system for half a decade and thought he could catch. Keeping talented minor leaguers rather than selling them for expensive vets is really the only way a team with a below-average payroll can hope to string together playoff seasons.

[Brownie19]

all of his, and other teams' too!

like kluber, carrasco and bauer to name a few.

AA liked scouting, there he had a clue,

but more to team winning than picking teenagers who arent poo.

 

development shapiro says, thats the key to success.

soon u will come around when we are better than the rest.

 

Good news is we still have LaCava & Tinnish, who were instrumental in the Jays recent drafting success. When GM's draft, they rely heavily on their scouting department right.....

[BTS]

You still need to move prospects to try and win a championship if you think it could work out. The David Price trade was great, if Shapiro is going to shy away from making a trade deadline acquisition I'll stop supporting him.

 

You'll stop supporting a GM for opting not to buy talent at it's peak price? Buying high is a pretty bad plan.

[Frenchsoup]

You'll stop supporting a GM for opting not to buy talent at it's peak price? Buying high is a pretty bad plan.

 

How was that a buy high?

[BTS]

How was that a buy high?

 

The deadline is always an inefficient way to add wins. You're typically talking about giving up 6 years of control of talented prospects for 3 months of control of a good major league player.

[Frenchsoup]

The deadline is always an inefficient way to add wins. You're typically talking about giving up 6 years of control of talented prospects for 3 months of control of a good major league player.

 

Yeah it was pretty inefficient. Who are you honestly scared of in that deal, that will come back to haunt AA?

Edited January 14, 2016 by Frenchsoup

[Angrioter]

Other teams likely want the best guys in your system. How often would you be an a position to trade a highly regarded prospect with big market value that you're pretty sure will bust? If Toronto, for example, had the payroll restrictions of Cleveland or TB, Syndergaard, d'Arnaud, Desclafani, Hechavarria, and Dyson putting up tons of wins for league min on other teams would have absolutely crippled the team's chances to compete.

 

And evaluation is hard. Toronto drafted Sanchez and Syndergaard, and still preferred Sanchez to Syndergaard at the time of the Dickey trade. They had Yan Gomes in the system for half a decade and didn't think he could catch. They had JPA in the system for half a decade and thought he could catch. Keeping talented minor leaguers rather than selling them for expensive vets is really the only way a team with a below-average payroll can hope to string together playoff seasons.

Eres un arrogante de mierda que siempre me irritas por tu forma de tratar a los trogloditas como yo, but.......

 

 

Great post. Shapiro line of thinking is very great. Now we will be like the Cards or Pirates under the Shapiro regimen.

[Gorlak]

Drafting is a major part of being a gm, whether he personally was bad at drafting, or hired/kept people bad at it doesn't matter. If you collect prospects you will have a greater amount of prospects become good MLB players, It's odds more than any development theory.

[highhard2]

Please do the following things:

 

1. Take a look at the Indians roster.

2. Note the players that were drafted by them, signed as international free agents, or acquired as prospects and developed by them.

3. Realize that Cleveland's development under Shapiro was pretty much elite.

4. Stop complaining about nothing.

 

If Cleveland had an elite development system,and still didn't produce many players out of the ones they drafted,wouldn't that make even more of a case for them being really bad drafting?

 

Your dum.

[Gorlak]

The deadline is always an inefficient way to add wins. You're typically talking about giving up 6 years of control of talented prospects for 3 months of control of a good major league player.

 

It's also the time when wins are the most valuable to the team, hence the price. There is a time and place for these type of deals.

[Frenchsoup]

It's also the time when wins are the most valuable to the team, hence the price. There is a time and place for these type of deals.

 

I agree, you also don't want KC/Houston/YANKEES to get Price. The season most likely turns out dramatically different if we don't overpay a bit to get the top dog on the market in Price.

[glory]

The Jays were .500 with 60 games to go and 7 games back of the division (or somewhere around that) when they traded for Price.

 

It was a Hail Mary that worked.

[GreekFatAss]

I often wonder how AA would be looked at if we didn't go red hot and make the playoffs, outside of an extra 2 weeks of play there is no difference from where we are and where we would have been.

[BTS]

If Cleveland had an elite development system,and still didn't produce many players out of the ones they drafted,wouldn't that make even more of a case for them being really bad drafting?

 

Your dum.

 

Teasing an org's drafting from their development is a fool's errand.

[Gorlak]

The Jays were .500 with 60 games to go and 7 games back of the division (or somewhere around that) when they traded for Price.

 

It was a Hail Mary that worked.

 

Judging a team by wins is like judging a pitcher by wins, albeit with a larger sample, the peripherals were there. It was a Bold move though.

[BTS]

The Jays were .500 with 60 games to go and 7 games back of the division (or somewhere around that) when they traded for Price.

 

It was a Hail Mary that worked.

 

I think a vastly different set of transactions are made if AA isn't cheesed at Rogers with a foot out the door. Those were the moves of a guy who knows he'll be gone in three months.

[Gorlak]

I think a vastly different set of transactions are made if AA isn't cheesed at Rogers with a foot out the door. Those were the moves of a guy who knows he'll be gone in three months.

 

That may have been a part of it, but I think it was also a reaction from what happened after his 2014 deadline.

[Angrioter]

I think a vastly different set of transactions are made if AA isn't cheesed at Rogers with a foot out the door. Those were the moves of a guy who knows he'll be gone in three months.

Alex last resort.

 

A despair man in action, like Puig for prospects or Bird for Smoak #LoD

[Gorlak]

I often wonder how AA would be looked at if we didn't go red hot and make the playoffs, outside of an extra 2 weeks of play there is no difference from where we are and where we would have been.

 

I think he would have still ended up in LA, but fans would have little regard for him.

[saskjayfan]

The Jays were .500 with 60 games to go and 7 games back of the division (or somewhere around that) when they traded for Price.

 

It was a Hail Mary that worked.

 

for someone who throws out advanced stats, that's a pretty casual fan comment. Advanced stats is all about creating runs or preventing them. The Jays were leading the league in run differential at that point. Their record was .500 at the time, so they were certainly unlucky...no? They were within a couple games of a wild card birth. The trade was hardly a hail mary. A hail mary works less than 10% of the time. Given the state of the Jays team at the time of the trade they were likely favourites to at least grab a wild card birth. If they were 50 and 50 with a negative run differential they wouldn't have made the trades...

[burlingtonbandit]

I think a vastly different set of transactions are made if AA isn't cheesed at Rogers with a foot out the door. Those were the moves of a guy who knows he'll be gone in three months.

 

I think the more likely scenario was Beeston and Rogers put pressure on him to make those deals than AA himself.

[BTS]

I think the more likely scenario was Beeston and Rogers put pressure on him to make those deals than AA himself.

 

There's absolutely no way Rogers pressured him to unload the farm to get a 0.500 team to the playoffs. The plan was in place to sacrifice him to appease the fans after the playoffs.

[glory]

for someone who throws out advanced stats, that's a pretty casual fan comment. Advanced stats is all about creating runs or preventing them. The Jays were leading the league in run differential at that point. Their record was .500 at the time, so they were certainly unlucky...no? They were within a couple games of a wild card birth. The trade was hardly a hail mary. A hail mary works less than 10% of the time. Given the state of the Jays team at the time of the trade they were likely favourites to at least grab a wild card birth. If they were 50 and 50 with a negative run differential they wouldn't have made the trades...

 

The Jays were much better than their record at the time, but it was still 60 games remaining in the season and 7-8 games to make up. That wasn't a whole lot of time. They needed to play .750 ball to make it and they did. That doesn't mean it wasn't a huge leap of faith to make that deal(s). If they were going to make a trade, it should have been something like the Fiers/Gomez trade the Astros pulled off. At least they would have gotten more seasons out of the players they received. A Hail mary for a 2 month rental when you're staring at a 7-8 game deficit with 2 months to go isn't exactly a safe move, regardless of run differential.

 

Also, making that trade for a 1st/2nd WC game would have been horrendous. YOu don't make that trade for a coin flip game. It was likely part desperation (knowing he was out the door and trying to make a run) and part hoping the 13 head to head games remaining with the Yankees could mean the division was still in play. He guessed right in hindsight, but still wasn't a high percentage move in terms of the division.

[glory]

Judging a team by wins is like judging a pitcher by wins, albeit with a larger sample, the peripherals were there. It was a Bold move though.

 

I wasn't judging the quality of the team, just the amount of time they had left to make up a lot of ground.

[Nafro]

Alex last resort.

 

A despair man in action, like Puig for prospects or Bird for Smoak #LoD

 

It was actually Bird for Smoak and Grichuk, Smoak was the throw in of the deal. My prediction is Grichuk is a top 10 CF this year. No despair at all.

[burlingtonbandit]

There's absolutely no way Rogers pressured him to unload the farm to get a 0.500 team to the playoffs. The plan was in place to sacrifice him to appease the fans after the playoffs.

 

The Idiots at Rogers have no idea what a farm system is. They were willing to trade Hoffman for Dan f***ing Duquette less than a year before. All Rogers cares about is money, they loved those trades.

[bronson44]

The Idiots at Rogers have no idea what a farm system is. They were willing to trade Hoffman for Dan f***ing Duquette less than a year before. All Rogers cares about is money, they loved those trades.

 

well that's a nice bit of revisionist history

[RealAccountant]

The Idiots at Rogers have no idea what a farm system is. They were willing to trade Hoffman for Dan f***ing Duquette less than a year before. All Rogers cares about is money, they loved those trades.

 

AA possibly saved baseball in Toronto

 

It astounds me how many posters don't remmember 2010 when baseball was on the brink of failing in Toronto

 

He took over during some dark days

 

Jays worth about $300 million

 

This March Jays maybe valued at over a billion dollars

 

Balance sheet with FMV is a thing. No one at Rogers cares about prospects.

[TheHurl]

Isn't over 50% of the Indians roster homegrown...as compared to about 30% of the Jays? I'd guess that the Indians are top 5 in the league in homegrown talent, behind KC, St. Louis, Mets and Giants.