JP Ricciardi: Disconnect between Jays front office and Rogers

[CHRIS]

Who's worse, JP or Ash....

 

Ash

[Krylian]

You'd bring back the GM who mentored Dave Stewart?

 

But Dave Stewart won 20 games, 4 years in a row for Oakland. He's a winner. He's a gamer. No. Wait.....he's both!

[Key22]

I liked what JP said - especially about not being allowed to go over slot or sign international players. Forces you to bypass players in the draft and choose boring choices instead - which the GM gets blamed for - why didn't you draft this guy - well that guy would cost $1 over slot and I'm not allowed to sign him - so I have to take the boring college scrub instead. Hey this Cuban guy would be awesome - nope - can't sign him - have to pass on all of them every year.

 

Ideally you want mega rich private owners who want to win and have some brains.

 

Maybe Shapiro though is in a different position where he will be given more leeway and will basically serve as that rich private owner with an asterisk. Hoping for the best on that. JPR seems to agree with what the Jays have done this off-season - add several of those swing type starters and it may be good enough.

[xposbrad]

I liked what JP said - especially about not being allowed to go over slot or sign international players. Forces you to bypass players in the draft and choose boring choices instead - which the GM gets blamed for - why didn't you draft this guy - well that guy would cost $1 over slot and I'm not allowed to sign him - so I have to take the boring college scrub instead. Hey this Cuban guy would be awesome - nope - can't sign him - have to pass on all of them every year.

 

Ideally you want mega rich private owners who want to win and have some brains.

Maybe Shapiro though is in a different position where he will be given more leeway and will basically serve as that rich private owner with an asterisk. Hoping for the best on that. JPR seems to agree with what the Jays have done this off-season - add several of those swing type starters and it may be good enough.

 

Well then this offseason would have gone differently right? We'd have a #1 or #2 starter. There's no reason to expect anything different. The GM may have changed but ownership hasn't.

[wamco]

He's answering the question.

 

Why do you guys get so upset about someone sharing their opinion. He's talking about his time in Toronto and I don't mind hearing it. Many of us have no respect for Rogers...and this is just another piece of info that shows us that our gut is possibly right for thinking that way.

 

-because they blindly defend the shield as always. Jp was a tool but I believe everything he says here.

[FrozenRopes]

If they called me to interview about a previous job, I would decline. No good can come from it. Dirty laundry airing. He was a terrible GM and tried to blame it on Rogers. Nice try.

[Jimcanuck]

If they called me to interview about a previous job, I would decline. No good can come from it. Dirty laundry airing. He was a terrible GM and tried to blame it on Rogers. Nice try.

 

Drafting record is brutal. Roster construction on the cheap due to Rogers payroll constraints was quite good. More or less the reverse of AA.

[crmr]

Nice to hear JP support what the blue jays are doing in signing many pieces rather than just one.

 

Hard to know all the details behind the scenes during his time here, but as someone mentioned before, most of the facts support what he's saying

[dineke]

I don't know why some are pissed at JPR, he didn't really say anything bad. I didn't realize he had so many restrictions in the payroll and the draft and looking back on it he wasn't that bad of a GM. I thought he was terrible at the time.

[burlingtonbandit]

I don't know why some are pissed at JPR, he didn't really say anything bad. I didn't realize he had so many restrictions in the payroll and the draft and looking back on it he wasn't that bad of a GM. I thought he was terrible at the time.

 

People are pissed because the only reason he went on to do the interview was to make himself look better. Never did he say he did a bad job in Toronto but had a million reasons why he didn't make the playoffs.

 

He wasn't a bad GM when you consider the payroll he had but all he ever did was build average teams that had no shot at winning in the AL East. He should of tore the thing down and rebuilt properly through the draft. But the problem was that he could never draft well and for a a team with that payroll its almost impossible to go anywhere without drafting and developing.

[BTS]

People are pissed because the only reason he went on to do the interview was to make himself look better. Never did he say he did a bad job in Toronto but had a million reasons why he didn't make the playoffs.

 

He wasn't a bad GM when you consider the payroll he had but all he ever did was build average teams that had no shot at winning in the AL East. He should of tore the thing down and rebuilt properly through the draft. But the problem was that he could never draft well and for a a team with that payroll its almost impossible to go anywhere without drafting and developing.

 

He didn't have the mandate to tear it down in rebuild. He was told to win. This affected his drafting in two ways:

1) He was inclined to draft college players who could ostensibly bolster the MLB roster for league min in short order.

2) His paltry resources went to the MLB team and he wasn't allowed to go overslot on the draft or dip into the international market.

 

The "JPR couldn't draft" argument is lazy and misinformed. JPR wasn't given the opportunity to draft well

[burlingtonbandit]

He didn't have the mandate to tear it down in rebuild. He was told to win. This affected his drafting in two ways:

1) He was inclined to draft college players who could ostensibly bolster the MLB roster for league min in short order.

2) His paltry resources went to the MLB team and he wasn't allowed to go overslot on the draft or dip into the international market.

 

The "JPR couldn't draft" argument is lazy and misinformed. JPR wasn't given the opportunity to draft well

 

Even without spending overslot he could have drafted better. Sure you might not get 2nd round talent in the 15th round but his drafts were terrible regardless. Him overrulling his scouts and taking Romero over Tulo was a colossal mistake that could of really helped out the franchise.

[glory]

People are pissed because the only reason he went on to do the interview was to make himself look better. Never did he say he did a bad job in Toronto but had a million reasons why he didn't make the playoffs.

 

He wasn't a bad GM when you consider the payroll he had but all he ever did was build average teams that had no shot at winning in the AL East. He should of tore the thing down and rebuilt properly through the draft. But the problem was that he could never draft well and for a a team with that payroll its almost impossible to go anywhere without drafting and developing.

 

He was brought in to win on a small payroll (ala the Oakland A's). It was the height of the Moneyball craze, and Ricciardi was able to milk being one of Beane's assistants into a GM gig, but I don't think he ever had the option of tearing it down. "Winning an unfair game" was Rogers' intent.

[burlingtonbandit]

He was brought in to win on a small payroll (ala the Oakland A's). It was the height of the Moneyball craze, and Ricciardi was able to milk being one of Beane's assistants into a GM gig, but I don't think he ever had the option of tearing it down. "Winning an unfair game" was Rogers' intent.

 

Okay I shouldn't have criticized him for that then, I'll admit that. Still was terrible at drafting and developing which ultimately did him in.

[bendera3]

He didn't have the mandate to tear it down in rebuild. He was told to win. This affected his drafting in two ways:

1) He was inclined to draft college players who could ostensibly bolster the MLB roster for league min in short order.

2) His paltry resources went to the MLB team and he wasn't allowed to go overslot on the draft or dip into the international market.

 

The "JPR couldn't draft" argument is lazy and misinformed. JPR wasn't given the opportunity to draft well

 

This is exactly right. From what I've heard/read he was told he couldn't tank (Tampa, Astros) for a top pick, and he couldn't go overslot to sign high potential high schoolers. One of the nice things about how the draft used to be was in the later rounds you could buy 1st/2nd round talent if you had the money. We didn't.

[burlingtonbandit]

Is Godfrey the worst president in team history? You must be pretty s***** at your job if you can't convince ownership to spend money in the draft.

[BTS]

Even without spending overslot he could have drafted better. Sure you might not get 2nd round talent in the 15th round but his drafts were terrible regardless. Him overrulling his scouts and taking Romero over Tulo was a colossal mistake that could of really helped out the franchise.

 

It's interesting to compare two teams with similar draft restrictions over the same period. Oakland, for example, was always lauded for their drafting and development, but over the same stretch that JPR was here they didn't outperform him at the draft. If you look at likely 5+ win careers (I think this is all of them):

 

Lind, Cecil, Hill, Marcum, Janssen, Marisnick, Goins, Paxton, Loup, Gomes, Hutchison

Swisher, Ziegler, Street, Suzuki, Cahill, Doolittle, Ross, Pennington

 

It was really, really hard to hit on impact talent under the old draft bonus structure if you couldn't go overslot.

[burlingtonbandit]

It's interesting to compare two teams with similar draft restrictions over the same period. Oakland, for example, was always lauded for their drafting and development, but over the same stretch that JPR was here they didn't outperform him at the draft. If you look at likely 5+ win careers (I think this is all of them):

 

Lind, Cecil, Hill, Marcum, Janssen, Marisnick, Goins, Paxton, Loup, Gomes, Hutchison

Swisher, Ziegler, Street, Suzuki, Cahill, Doolittle, Ross, Pennington

 

It was really, really hard to hit on impact talent under the old draft bonus structure if you couldn't go overslot.

 

Is it fair to put Gomes and Paxton in with that group since they were developed by other orgs? I mean even Marisnick, Goins, Loup and Hutch were all developed in AA's tenure since JP was fired the year they were drafted. Drafting is only worth it if you can develop the players you drafted and maybe JP neglected this area which could explain part of it. I understand its difficult to draft slot or under all the time but that list is awful.

[BTS]

Is it fair to put Gomes and Paxton in with that group since they were developed by other orgs? I mean even Marisnick, Goins, Loup and Hutch were all developed in AA's tenure since JP was fired the year they were drafted. Drafting is only worth it if you can develop the players you drafted and maybe JP neglected this area which could explain part of it. I understand its difficult to draft slot or under all the time but that list is awful.

 

Paxton shouldn't be there. Gomes was developed by Toronto though.

[Ihavefeelingstoo]

JP is insane. He actually believes that if Menxg didn't break Halladay leg in 2005, Jays would have won the wild card that year. They were 2 games out when Doc got heard and if I remember correctly JP had a deal in place to acquired Farnsworth which he negd on thereafter

[burlingtonbandit]

Paxton shouldn't be there. Gomes was developed by Toronto though.

 

Not when JP was here though. Like half of those players were drafted the year he left. The Mariners under Jack Z seemed to draft decent but they could never develop well. Meanwhile look at the Cardinals..