Shapiro: Lack of depth could make Blue Jays 'fragile'

[Atothe]

Shapiro is smart. Considering Bautista, Edwin, Tulo, Travis (he already has) will probably get hurt.

[Cyborg]

I wouldn't mind putting Osuna and Sanchez in AAA with Rowen, Delabar, and Venditte rounding out the pen.

[burlingtonbandit]

I wouldn't mind putting Osuna and Sanchez in AAA with Rowen, Delabar, and Venditte rounding out the pen.

 

Assume you would have Cecil close but the pen would look pretty bad beyond that. If that was the plan I don't think they trade Hendriks for Chavez.

[Spanky99]

It really was and everyone on here knew it

 

Yup, every single year this was on the table.

[GoJays]

Also has one of the best collections of talent in the majors.. You are making it sound like he is coming into a terrible situation when it is not true.

 

Your reading me wrong . The position player lineup is far and away the best in the majors . The defense is well above average and I believe we have enough position player depth as long as Travis comes back healthy. Pompey, Collabello, and Goins is pretty good depth.

I,m just moaning and groaning about ALWAYS lacking pitching. It is going to be very interesting to see how Shapiro fixes this . Opening one hole to fill another doesn't do it but I do understand the Chavez trade as I didn't see Hendricks as a starter.

I would love to see us signing some AAA depth pitching and I do see us taking a flyer on a rule 5 draft BP arm.

[GoJays]

It's funny. As I was reading that quote, I took it as a bit of a condemnation on AA's ability to trade all the potential future AAA pitching depth.

 

That is exactly what it was.

[Pulk_Pull]

I fully expect our spring training to be jam packed with invites / minor league deals for a ton of starters. Given our prospect pipeline won't be filling the AAA roster, we should have 3-4 #6 options down there just in case.

[thatoneguy]

Hence, the 2013 Toronto Blue Jays.

 

I think it was even more apparent in 2012.

[GoJays]

I wouldn't mind putting Osuna and Sanchez in AAA with Rowen, Delabar, and Venditte rounding out the pen.

 

I would love to see Osuna and Sanchez in AAA starting but that pen is ugly. Still it is much easier to get lucky with pen arms than starters. Fill Buffalo with a bunch of Radhames Liz types and sign one FA BP arm.

Liz is definitley a guy I target

[Stangstag]

Good luck with that. Shapiro just doesn't have the budget or the trade chips to add a #2 starter and 3 Backend bull pen pieces. I also look at Chavez as a swingman 6th starter so I'm hoping Hutch rebounds.

I guess if he could convince EE to accept a trade he might but I just don't see that happening.

 

How is there not enough money? We had around 30 million available for this offseason IIRC.

 

11.5 going to Estrada, 5 going to Chavez... still leaves us with like 13.5 to play around with. We could also trade Revere to offload 6 million.

[ElNik2013]

It's funny. As I was reading that quote, I took it as a bit of a condemnation on AA's ability to trade all the potential future AAA pitching depth.

 

 

 

Like Nolin and Graveman?

[RealAccountant]

shaun marcum would be good depth

 

For what? Watched him pitch lately?

[glory]

It kind of sickens me that AA was able to leave the Jays as a hero despite what he's left the team with. I know, I know, he was the GM that ended the playoff drought. Top ten payroll and traded damn near the entire farm to do it and left the team with nothing in the upper minors and a core in their 30's. I'm glad Shapiro is here because he's smart enough not to let sentimental attachment dictate his decision making. This roster needs a retool, and thankfully he knows it. Try to win in 2016 while they have the window to compete, but don't sacrifice any more of the future to do it.

[ElNik2013]

Team is in good shape. Previous GM's mandate since 2013 was to send out the previous president with a playoff appearance and acted in such a way.

 

 

30M to spend should be enough to round out a very, very good roster.

[wamco]

and if we cashed in that runner on 3rd base w/ no outs and went on to beat Kc and NYM ?

[Grant77]

It kind of sickens me that AA was able to leave the Jays as a hero despite what he's left the team with. I know, I know, he was the GM that ended the playoff drought. Top ten payroll and traded damn near the entire farm to do it and left the team with nothing in the upper minors and a core in their 30's. I'm glad Shapiro is here because he's smart enough not to let sentimental attachment dictate his decision making. This roster needs a retool, and thankfully he knows it. Try to win in 2016 while they have the window to compete, but don't sacrifice any more of the future to do it.

 

We just barely had a top 10 payroll and were very separated from the top 9 teams (closer to 17th place than 9th place). In fact, we had a below average payroll by more than 2 million. Before the deadline deals, we were in the bottom half of team payrolls.

 

Don't act as if we had Steinbrenner era Yankees money or something.

[ElNik2013]

If team had kept Nolin, Graveman, Norris, Boyd and Hoffman, would some of you be happier with the team?

 

 

Some would likely be complaining about the MLB roster not being good enough.

 

 

Or maybe he could trade Donaldson for a package that includes a young 3B, 2 young depth SP and a top SS prospect. This would replenish the farm and add depth to starting rotation.

 

Shapiro is a smart guy, he will use the 30M, or whatever is left of it, to round out a very, very good roster.

[glory]

Team is in good shape. Previous GM's mandate since 2013 was to send out the previous president with a playoff appearance and acted in such a way.

 

30M to spend should be enough to round out a very, very good roster.

 

They have a very good team in 2016 (barring some major injuries). After that? I don't want to be a team that makes the playoffs once or twice and then goes on another extended playoff drought. If there's a World Series celebration out of it, then fine, but the goal should still be to build a sustainable team. I think Shapiro took over at the right time because there's more than enough time to retool and be right back in good position in 2017 (whether Bautista/Edwin come back or not), but it will take a lot of work.

 

If this was "2013", and the Jays had 3 or 4 more years with this roster, then I'd be OK with it. The Jays practically had two months with this roster, and then 2016. That's it. Then Shapiro will have to go to work. It's doable, but it's not the great position everyone seems to think it is.

[glory]

What he's left the team with? Look at our f***ing lineup. If you put their names in a hat and reach in and grab one, chances are that guy could be moved for all the prospects we gave up at the deadline.

 

We don't even have bad contracts. Imagine signing Tulowitzki for 5/100M this winter. It's a god damn pipe dream. Let me guess, you'd rather have Hoffman..

 

"Look at our pitching staff! We have Halladay, Lee, Oswalt, Hamels. Unbeatable. Then a lineup with Howard, Utley, Rollins.....we're in good shape guys". - Phillies fans in 2011.

 

I hope you guys are right, but AA's way to building this roster was not sustainable. He left at the right time.

[Spanky99]

What he's left the team with? Look at our f***ing lineup. If you put their names in a hat and reach in and grab one, chances are that guy could be moved for all the prospects we gave up at the deadline.

 

We don't even have bad contracts. Imagine signing Tulowitzki for 5/100M this winter. It's a god damn pipe dream. Let me guess, you'd rather have Hoffman..

 

His entire mandate is to s*** on AA and Gibbons, especially the latter, I'm surprised he hasn't called for LaCava and Shapiro's head yet.

[ElNik2013]

What he's left the team with? Look at our f***ing lineup. If you put their names in a hat and reach in and grab one, chances are that guy could be moved for all the prospects we gave up at the deadline.

 

We don't even have bad contracts. Imagine signing Tulowitzki for 5/100M this winter. It's a god damn pipe dream. Let me guess, you'd rather have Hoffman..

 

 

Remember though, 2 years ago, the team was supposed to be s*** by 2015/16 after the farm was emptied and left barren. Nothing is stopping Shapiro from trading Bautista and EE to replenish the farm and have a very good farm team.

 

Also, why didn't freakin' ownership stop AA from trying to send his boss, Beeston, out on a playoff appearance?

 

 

Can't we just be happy that Rogers's 3rd or 4th choice as team president was the best one?

[burlingtonbandit]

"Look at our pitching staff! We have Halladay, Lee, Oswalt, Hamels. Unbeatable. Then a lineup with Howard, Utley, Rollins.....we're in good shape guys". - Phillies fans in 2011.

 

I hope you guys are right, but AA's way to building this roster was not sustainable. He left at the right time.

 

They also had the worst GM in baseball. I'll put faith in AA over Amaro to build a team.

[dineke]

"Look at our pitching staff! We have Halladay, Lee, Oswalt, Hamels. Unbeatable. Then a lineup with Howard, Utley, Rollins.....we're in good shape guys". - Phillies fans in 2011.

 

I hope you guys are right, but AA's way to building this roster was not sustainable. He left at the right time.

 

The phillies were doomed ever since Amaro stepped into the gm role.

[ElNik2013]

We just barely had a top 10 payroll and were very separated from the top 9 teams (closer to 17th place than 9th place). In fact, we had a below average payroll by more than 2 million. Before the deadline deals, we were in the bottom half of team payrolls.

 

Don't act as if we had Steinbrenner era Yankees money or something.

 

 

 

Team was also improved during last off season all while lowering payroll, IIRC.

 

 

Like others, I have confidence in Shapiro going forward, especially because he's the team president and will set the vision for the franchise.

[ElNik2013]

His entire mandate is to s*** on AA and Gibbons, especially the latter, I'm surprised he hasn't called for LaCava and Shapiro's head yet.

 

 

LaCava is next, Shapiro is taking over a terrible situation here.

[Smokingjays1111]

Again where are you guys getting the money figures ? There is ample room for Shapiro , as far as him taking over a s*** situation , you are wrong . AA was a damn good gm you can't fault a gm who traded prospects and good players (that the jays drafted and developed) for assets to win now , a good gm knows that's the key winning and he had straight up told us that was his plan , WHY DO YOU THINK HE DRAFTED PITCHERS WITH SO MUCH VIGOUR?

[GoJays]

How is there not enough money? We had around 30 million available for this offseason IIRC.

 

11.5 going to Estrada, 5 going to Chavez... still leaves us with like 13.5 to play around with. We could also trade Revere to offload 6 million.

 

Think it around 16.2 left assuming the 140 number. That reply was to someone who wanted Hutch, Osuna and Sanchez in AAA. We have far and above the best lineup in baseball but as Shapiro points out our depth is very lean . I actually think positional depth isn't bad but the pitching depth is very barren. I want/covet a # 2 starter to fill out the rotation which would eat up the 16.2 left and more. Then I would like an arm or two for the bull pen. That obviously will be darn hard to do.

 

AA did his job as instructed by his boss, get the team to the playoffs. The cost however was most of our minor league pitching depth. If Shapiro can work some magic and get us a good pitching staff I'll tip my cap but he isn't some miracle worker sent down from the heavens. While I agree he was better than the others it isn't like we just got Friedman or Epstein

[bendera3]

It's amazing that people don't realize that you can rebuild farm systems. AA was already on his way to rebuilding ours for the 2nd (or 3rd?) time. You just sign a bunch of international guys and hit a couple times in the draft. The Red Sox have come up with a great farm system without picking top 10 every year and without selling off all their assets. They made a good deal with Miller for E-Rod but the rest of them like Margot, Devers, Espinoza, Benintendi or whoever were just good scouting and development.

 

Do you see the Cardinals selling off guys to beef up the farm system? No. Or the Giants? No. They just scout guys and get them in the farm through draft or signing. AA could do that too. Where does Vlad Guerrero Jr. go in an MLB draft when he's 18? Probably a first rounder. We got him for free. Alford was a f***ing football player we drafted and convinced to play baseball. You can rebuild a farm in many different ways.

 

He wasn't free. Also we spent a lot on Alford to play football. Yeah he quit football but we still spent that money.

 

And as for your Cardinals comment they don't tend to trade guys they just let them walk (Albert). they just get the most out of their system. The Giants get guys to outperform their projections.

[ElNik2013]

It's amazing that people don't realize that you can rebuild farm systems. AA was already on his way to rebuilding ours for the 2nd (or 3rd?) time. You just sign a bunch of international guys and hit a couple times in the draft. The Red Sox have come up with a great farm system without picking top 10 every year and without selling off all their assets. They made a good deal with Miller for E-Rod but the rest of them like Margot, Devers, Espinoza, Benintendi or whoever were just good scouting and development.

 

Do you see the Cardinals selling off guys to beef up the farm system? No. Or the Giants? No. They just scout guys and get them in the farm through draft or signing. AA could do that too. Where does Vlad Guerrero Jr. go in an MLB draft when he's 18? Probably a first rounder. We got him for free. Alford was a f***ing football player we drafted and convinced to play baseball. You can rebuild a farm in many different ways.

 

 

 

Plus, if you believe Shapiro is smart and forward-thinking, why wouldn't you expect him to pull off some good trades, you know like a Gose for Travis, get another Escobar or Morrow or to draft another Pillar, Pompey, Nolin, Graveman or Boyd?

 

What about another Gomes trade?

 

Shapiro DOES have to do something doesn't he? Or do some here think he should just have waltzed into a perfect situation?

 

 

I'm actually excited to see what he will do with this roster going forward. Maybe he'll get another Kluber or something.

 

 

Don't people see how lucky we are that Rogers got lucky and didn't hire their first 3 or 4 choices and their 3rd and 4th choice was the very best?

 

Anyway, to each their own I guess.

[ElNik2013]

He wasn't free. Also we spent a lot on Alford to play football. Yeah he quit football but we still spent that money.

 

And as for your Cardinals comment they don't tend to trade guys they just let them walk (Albert). they just get the most out of their system. The Giants get guys to outperform their projections.

 

 

Cards are great, but just to be a contrarian, didn't they offer Pujols an extension for a rather large sum of $?