Offseason Roster Thread

[ClevelandBrownsFan2]

Has Shapiro done anything to solve the depth issue though? If Hutch gets the #5 spot really there is only Chavez as SP depth. Outside of that there isn't anyone I'd be confident in giving starts to. I understand there is lots of offseason left so there is lots of time to get SP depth but I don't think we can sit here and say Shapiro has done a great job adding depth to the roster.

 

1. Stroman

2. Dickey

3. Estrada

4. Happ

5. Hutchison

6. Chavez

 

is better depth than

 

1. Price

2. Stroman

3. Dickey

4. Hutchison

5. ?

6. ?

 

I don't know what that works out to WAR-wise, but maybe some has or can do so. Also not sure if there has been any comparisons of expected WAR vs results for rotations that are low on depth. Like conceptually it seems to make more sense to have a balanced rotation than a top heavy one, but I'd be interested to see some analysis on that. I'm sure it's out there, just not going to find it right now.

 

In any case, agreed that more depth has to be added to both the rotation and the pen.

[GD]

I like the new guy

[Grant77]

The logic of demoting a pitcher with a 1.69 ERA and dynamite peripherals in 2 seasons as a reliever eludes me. If you want to use him as a starter then he has nothing to learn in the minor leagues. He is what he is and adjustments can probably be made more effectively at the big league level.

[Jimcanuck]

The logic of demoting a pitcher with a 1.69 ERA and dynamite peripherals in 2 seasons as a reliever eludes me. If you want to use him as a starter then he has nothing to learn in the minor leagues. He is what he is and adjustments can probably be made more effectively at the big league level.

 

agreed unless he's working on a new pitch like a deceptive changeup (which would sharply increase the K rate).... Buffalo is the better place for working on it

[burlingtonbandit]

1. Stroman

2. Dickey

3. Estrada

4. Happ

5. Hutchison

6. Chavez

 

is better depth than

 

1. Price

2. Stroman

3. Dickey

4. Hutchison

5. ?

6. ?

 

I don't know what that works out to WAR-wise, but maybe some has or can do so. Also not sure if there has been any comparisons of expected WAR vs results for rotations that are low on depth. Like conceptually it seems to make more sense to have a balanced rotation than a top heavy one, but I'd be interested to see some analysis on that. I'm sure it's out there, just not going to find it right now.

 

In any case, agreed that more depth has to be added to both the rotation and the pen.

 

I'd easily take rotation number 2 (Chavez would be included in this don't forget) if it was simple like that without contracts being included. Shapiro didn't want to commit the years to sign Price which I'm fine with and understand. I just didn't agree with the notion that Shapiro has done a great job building depth in the rotation since there are only 6 viable starters.

[Jimcanuck]

I'd easily take rotation number 2 (Chavez would be included in this don't forget) if it was simple like that without contracts being included. Shapiro didn't want to commit the years to sign Price which I'm fine with and understand. I just didn't agree with the notion that Shapiro has done a great job building depth in the rotation since there are only 6 viable starters.

 

Sanchez is a viable starter, if he's #7 on the depth chart that's pretty f***ing good

 

also, its Dec

[burlingtonbandit]

Sanchez is a viable starter, if he's #7 on the depth chart that's pretty f***ing good

 

also, its Dec

 

I assume they will be using him in the bullpen. If he's in a late inning role it will be tough to give him starts when an injury happens since he won't be stretched out.

[ClevelandBrownsFan2]

I'd easily take rotation number 2 (Chavez would be included in this don't forget) if it was simple like that without contracts being included. Shapiro didn't want to commit the years to sign Price which I'm fine with and understand. I just didn't agree with the notion that Shapiro has done a great job building depth in the rotation since there are only 6 viable starters.

 

So let me capture your logic....you are criticizing the current rotation for lacking depth, while also prefering the rotation that is much weaker depth wise. Also, I didn't include Chavez in rotation 1 since thought I recalled you not being a fan of that trade.

 

I don't really know what more could be expected of the FO at this time regarding pitching if they weren't going to go get the big guys. Given the complete lack of depth we would have had if we signed one of the top guys, and the payroll constraints that would have come with that, I don't really know how you can fault the rotation as currently constructed.

Edited December 12, 2015 by ClevelandBrownsFan2

[Grant77]

I assume they will be using him in the bullpen. If he's in a late inning role it will be tough to give him starts when an injury happens since he won't be stretched out.

 

It's extremely likely that he'll come into ST as a starter. Shapiro all but said he would. I don't think he's one to waste young pitchers in the 'pen when they are viable SP options. He's a man who knows how to maximize the value of young pitchers, if nothing else. For those who don't think he likes pitchers like Sanchez, look how long he kept Jake Westbrook.

[burlingtonbandit]

So let me capture your logic....you are criticizing the current rotation for lacking depth, while also prefer the rotation that is much weaker depth wise. Also, I didn't include Chavez in rotation 1 since thought I recalled you not being a fan of that trade.

 

Like I don't really know what more could be expected of the FO at this time regarding pitching if they weren't going to go get the big guys. Given the complete lack of depth we would have had if we signed one of the top guys, and the payroll constraints that would have come with that, I don't really know how you can fault the rotation as currently constructed.

 

I'm saying contracts aside I would easily take a rotation with Price, Stro, Dickey, Hutch, Chavez over the one with 6 starters in it. Thats really a no brainer even if you like depth? Price is a durable number 1 starter and you would take him over Estrada and Happ any day of the week if it weren't for his contract. Like I said it doesn't work like this since contracts matter..

 

All I was saying was its a bit too early to say Shapiro has done a great job building depth when there is only 6 starters. There is still lots of the offseason left to fill out the AAA rotation so obviously you can't really judge anything right now.

[ClevelandBrownsFan2]

It's extremely likely that he'll come into ST as a starter. Shapiro all but said he would. I don't think he's one to waste young pitchers in the 'pen when they are viable SP options. He's a man who knows how to maximize the value of young pitchers, if nothing else.

 

Exactly, they might as well figure out if he can start or not. Otherwise, he can always pitch the 7th or 8th, we know he can do that.

 

I get your point about not sending Osuna to the minors, are you thinking they will put him as a start for ST? It seems like a waste to put such a young talented guy in the pen without seeing what could be.

[burlingtonbandit]

It's extremely likely that he'll come into ST as a starter. Shapiro all but said he would. I don't think he's one to waste young pitchers in the 'pen when they are viable SP options. He's a man who knows how to maximize the value of young pitchers, if nothing else. For those who don't think he likes pitchers like Sanchez, look how long he kept Jake Westbrook.

 

If Hutchison wins the number 5 job I would assume Sanchez goes to the pen though? Thats more where I was coming from. If Sanchez wins the #5 job in ST I'm fine with that but my guess is they would want Hutch to win it since you could then fill 2 holes on the Major league team instead of 1.

[Grant77]

If Hutchison wins the number 5 job I would assume Sanchez goes to the pen though? Thats more where I was coming from. If Sanchez wins the #5 job in ST I'm fine with that but my guess is they would want Hutch to win it since you could then fill 2 holes on the Major league team instead of 1.

 

Yeah, there's a lot of scenarios where he goes to the 'pen. I hope he wins a job, though.

[burlingtonbandit]

Yeah, there's a lot of scenarios where he goes to the 'pen. I hope he wins a job, though.

 

Before he got hurt he seemed to be pitching pretty well IIRC. If he can limit the walks to a reasonable amount he has huge upside since he gets so many groundballs. Of course that is easier said that done. Who knows, maybe after working out with Stroman at Duke in the offseason he'll be much better.

[glory]

Sanchez as a starter is more realistic because he's thrown 130 IP in a season before and started for the first part of last season, so it wouldn't be a huge transition for him. Osuna and his lack of innings is a different story. Sanchez really has to improve his command and add another plus pitch to be a long-term SP though.

[Jimcanuck]

Sanchez as a starter is more realistic because he's thrown 130 IP in a season before and started for the first part of last season, so it wouldn't be a huge transition for him. Osuna and his lack of innings is a different story. Sanchez really has to improve his command and add another plus pitch to be a long-term SP though.

 

control would be enough for sanchez at this stage of his career.... even when he grooves one down the middle, its a weak grounder

[DerangedIdoit]

If the Cubs make a Ross/Salazar type trade maybe the Jays can make a low cost trade for Hammel or Hendricks. It unlikely though, they will probably use one of them as a long man in the bullpen on stand by for injuries kind of like what we are trying to do with Chavez (if we can find another starter).

[Laika]

If the Cubs make a Ross/Salazar type trade maybe the Jays can make a low cost trade for Hammel or Hendricks. It unlikely though, they will probably use one of them as a long man in the bullpen on stand by for injuries kind of like what we are trying to do with Chavez (if we can find another starter).

 

I don't see how they can justify demoting Hammel or Hendricks to a role outside of the MLB rotation. Both are established above average starters.

 

If they trade for another top of the rotation arm, they'll probably include a guy like Hendricks in that deal.

[Angrioter]

Sanchez as a starter is more realistic because he's thrown 130 IP in a season before and started for the first part of last season, so it wouldn't be a huge transition for him. Osuna and his lack of innings is a different story. Sanchez really has to improve his command and add another plus pitch to be a long-term SP though.

 

"Sanchez add another plus pitch"? lol

 

He don't have a single plus pitch.

[BTS]

"Sanchez add another plus pitch"? lol

 

He don't have a single plus pitch.

 

His fastball is pretty legit.

[Angrioter]

His fastball is pretty legit.

 

..... but can't throw strikes. Plus potencial

[glory]

"Sanchez add another plus pitch"? lol

 

He don't have a single plus pitch.

 

Um, fastball?

 

He's a one pitch pitcher right now.

[Laika]

"Sanchez add another plus pitch"? lol

 

He don't have a single plus pitch.

 

what

[THANOS]

Sanchez didn't even throw 200 IP across A+, AA and AAA before he made it up here. He has a lot to learn. You could argue he was barely developed at all.

 

Sanchez as a reliever is someone who you can't comfortably and routinely bring into high leverage scenarios because he does not get strikeouts and is susceptible to the babip gods. And he also has a bit of a problem against lefties. What you're left with is a guy who needs a clean inning, preferably filled with RHBs. He's certainly not a slam dunk late inning option as he is.

 

The opportunity cost of not developing him as a starter in AAA is that you are losing a middle reliever which is basically the lowest value you can attach to one of your better pitching prospects. I would rather he flames out in AAA then be content with him as, what, a good right handed reliever that ideally pitches the 7th?

 

Sanchez is not as hopeless as people think. He has one really important strength and that's his fastball. His fastball means he can go through an order 3 times. He's not like Hutchison where you can time him up and by the 3rd time you can hit that junk pitch. You can see Sanchez's fastball 100 times and it's still a f***ing bowling ball. You can either get under it or you can't. His OPS against went down the 3rd time through an order as a starter.

 

And I know you didn't mention this but deciding Osuna is a reliever after not even trying him as a starter is completely retarded. We don't HAVE to do these things. We can avoid doing these retarded things by just spending money. The bullpen is the easiest thing to fix. Just throw money at it. Not even alot, and you get the job done. You spend like 12M on Madson and Lowe and you have a good bullpen. You trade Revere and let Pompey outperform him and your total outlay is 6M. It's so simple to me.

 

Amen. Why not trade Revere for a cheap and effective reliever like Randall Delgado, and allocate those resources to sign Joe Blanton. Then just sign Antonio Bastardo, and you have a good bullpen, and can afford for Sanchez and Osuna to be in AAA as starters.

 

I would be fine with this bullpen until August when Osuna and Sanchez come up to bolster things. This looks fine to me.

 

BP (April to August)

CL: Cecil

SU: Blanton

3: Delgado

4: Bastardo

5: Schultz

6: Loup

7: Biagini

 

BP (August -)

CL: Cecil

SU: Osuna

3: Blanton

4: Delgado

5: Bastardo

6: Sanchez

7: Biagini

Edited December 12, 2015 by THANOS

[Cyborg]

Is Bastardo measurably better than Delabar or Rowen? I'm not sure.

[burlingtonbandit]

Is Bastardo measurably better than Delabar or Rowen? I'm not sure.

 

Certainly isn't better than Loup when considering the money. He seems to be able to maintain a low HR/FB rate though.

[Laika]

Is Bastardo measurably better than Delabar or Rowen? I'm not sure.

 

How would we know, you're the f***ing robot

[THANOS]

Is Bastardo measurably better than Delabar or Rowen? I'm not sure.

 

Certainly isn't better than Loup when considering the money. He seems to be able to maintain a low HR/FB rate though.

 

Bastardo (316 ML IP):

11.04 K/9, 3.33 FIP, 3.87 xFIP

 

Delabar (186 ML IP):

11.19 K/9, 4.02 FIP, 3.75 xFIP

 

Loup (211 ML IP):

7.51 K/9, 3.36 FIP, 3.40 xFIP

 

They're definitely similar but Bastardo has been good for longer than Loup or Delabar. You could always use the Bastardo money on Morrow (pending he agrees to be in the BP)?

[TheHurl]

Excellent article. Lott is the best.

 

and then there is Cathal Kelly...

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/kelly-blue-jays-old-regime-wearing-new-suits-and-the-fit-feels-off/article27738336/

 

Seriously complaining cause he feels these guys are Business like Americans and AA was a fan. I think the Toronto writers are realizing that Shapiro is an open book (he's on various radio shows every single week) and unlike in the AA era, writers can't continue to write stupid speculative articles

[Thomas Malthus]

You think that will stop Cathal Kelly?