Who says no?

[Jimcanuck]

With Jose & Edwin being 10/5 guys. What's the chance either of them waive that to be dealt from a team/lineup as loaded as they're in?

 

True but thats not the point I am making. L54 called trading one of them a fireable offense, which is ridiculous.

[BigCecil]

My comment was that trading EE or JB is not a fireable offense. Jays cannot sign both Bautista and EE after 2016. 1 yr, $10M for a 4WAR guy like EE would fetch a very good return. Jays farm is sparse.

 

The best run orgs in baseball move their assets before they lose them for nothing.

 

Sadly, an Edwin rental wont have that much value 2016. He is only a poor 1B or DH option. Some teams looking to add RH power like the Mets did with Cespedes would for sure have an interest, but a high A prospect? He has veto regardless.

[Grant77]

My comment was that trading EE or JB is not a fireable offense. Jays cannot sign both Bautista and EE after 2016. 1 yr, $10M for a 4WAR guy like EE would fetch a very good return. Jays farm is sparse.

 

The best run orgs in baseball move their assets before they lose them for nothing.

 

Why not?

[THANOS]

Pillar will be 27 next year coming off of what will most likely be the best year of his career. His two biggest assets- defense and baserunning really can't be expected to improve next year. He had a great year, but will most likely end up being a bit of an outlier.

 

That's fair, but maybe AA could talk up his value to Cleveland in some fashion, especially since he would fit a dire need for that team.

 

Carrasco essentially silenced all the skeptics this year by breaking out in a huge way- making 30 starts, increasing his K% and SwStr% blah blah. The argument that he was s***** before while pumping Pillar's tires isn't really fair because Pillar was pretty s***** too. The difference is Carrasco repeated his success and I don't think many if any MLB orgs would expect Pillar to do the same.

 

This is true, but he's still due for a decline soon. Cleveland's strength is controllable talented starting pitching but their main weakness is defense. Pillar could be nearly as valuable to them because he provides what they lack.

 

If Sanchez was a guy they coveted enough as a reclamation project to attempt to transition him to starting again, a deal would've probably got done in July. My guess is Cleveland sees the same player many of us see- a guy with one good pitch, lacking a secondary one with troubles throwing strikes for more than one inning. It's fun to speculate what Sanchez could be, but I doubt the Indians are interested in getting lottery tickets back for Carrasco.

 

This is a fair response, and could very well be how Cleveland views him. That said, it is possible that Shapiro and AA can sell Cleveland on him, there could be angles that we aren't even considering that could be used in a potential negotiation about Sanchez' value.

 

As for Greene and SRF they're nice pieces, but not really the blue chippers that return a top of the rotation arm. They could very well make big strides next year and become coveted arms (SRF lowering those walks, Greene striking out more polished hitters). Basically, there would be a lot of teams that would offer more than what is being discussed.

 

Very true regarding Greene and Reid-Foley, and there would be a lot of risk tied valuing high on them because of their level of experience and deficiencies. I suppose it will come down to AA and Shapiro playing up the strengths of all the pieces in comparison to what Cleveland needs and covets.

 

I think your last point about other teams offering more would probably be the deciding component in any offer from Toronto. Then again, no one knew AA was dealing with Beane for Donaldson, so it could be a quiet transaction until it's finalized, especially with the respect Cleveland has for Shapiro.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Off-topic I wonder what the Mets would accept for Harvey given all the controversy surrounding him. Would he cost more or less than Carrasco, and would the controversy lower his would be value exponentially?

[John_Havok]

The offseason plan should basically be to buy low on a couple of SP like Shark / Ian Kennedy, and then call it a day. Maybe try to do the much talked about Revere for a SP deal, but it might not be out there. Do these little things and then hope the team competes again in 2016 while the farm matures.

 

They could also justify just trading Revere for whatever (cheap/good swing man like Zach McAllister?) mostly to save some payroll. I believe in Pompey and Saunders. Good Canadian boys.

 

I guess they could explore trading Goins or Travis if the value is there... but I still don't believe in Goins.

 

f***, forgot all about Saunders.

[Jimcanuck]

Why not?

 

They could of course. But two ~5 year deals at $20M+ each, for a 33 yr old and a 35 yr old wouldn't be wise. Doubly so when Jays already have the Tulo and Martin contracts.

[BigCecil]

They could of course. But two ~5 year deals at $20M+ each, for a 33 yr old and a 35 yr old wouldn't be wise.

 

Edwin wont get close to that. Jose will.

[fatcowxlive]

Why on earth would Bautista and/or Edwin be gone this year? That's a fireable offense if it happens.

 

Because they're going to hit decline really soon and we really don't have much coming up from the farm. I think we should keep retooling so we can keep contending, I don't know how many years Bautista has left in him to keep playing at the level he's at

 

Fatcow is posting on the regular again!!!

 

Its the post season I have to!

 

I'm not certain that trading them is necessary or the correct move. There aren't huge payroll constraints if we let Price go and we have the flexibility to transfer Jose to 1B sometime in the next couple of years. As long as we keep that big five (Donaldson, Tulo, E-Rex, JB, Martin) then we're a contender in my eyes. Add in Travis, KP and a developed Pompey/Alford and you're looking at a pretty dynamic offense.

 

My question is though, isn't it a bit short sighted to not move the older guys? I'm not talking impact on payroll, but trading Bautista's value now (which is only going to decrease year by year) for even greater value down the line? Tampa did it a lot (but for financial reasons) and they ended up with guys like Archer for guys like Garza. If we can make big deals like that, even if their values will truly kick in a season or two from the initial trade, wouldn't it be worth it?

[John_Havok]

With Jose & Edwin being 10/5 guys. What's the chance either of them waive that to be dealt from a team/lineup as loaded as they're in?

 

No chance they would. my guess is that they extend 1 of them in the offseason to a 3 year deal if possible, and the other walks in FA.

 

The only way a trade happens is if the Jays completely suck next year and they waive their rights in a trade to a contender. I can't see that happening though since I don't see how the Jays won't be contenders again unless the FO goes full derp

[Jimcanuck]

Edwin wont get close to that. Jose will.

 

Edwin's FA value last 4 years - $27M, $29M, $27M, $36M

[L54]

This was made very clear to me by Dinger before the trade deadline so it's my moral obligation to do it now.

 

10/5 rights mean Edwin nor Jose will not be moved.

[L54]

Because they're going to hit decline really soon and we really don't have much coming up from the farm. I think we should keep retooling so we can keep contending, I don't know how many years Bautista has left in him to keep playing at the level he's at

 

The only way they aren't here next year is if their options are not picked up. That's not happening.

[BigCecil]

Edwin's FA value last 4 years - $27M, $29M, $27M, $36M

 

I know what his numbers are but 5/100 is not going to happen. If it does I wish the E-Rex well.

 

I think he is a better candidate for accepting a reasonable 3 year extension than Jose.

[Krylian]

This was made very clear to me by Dinger before the trade deadline so it's my moral obligation to do it now.

 

10/5 rights mean Edwin nor Jose will not be moved.

 

Unless they agree to it.

[Jimcanuck]

This was made very clear to me by Dinger before the trade deadline so it's my moral obligation to do it now.

 

10/5 rights mean Edwin nor Jose will not be moved.

 

Of course. You said trading one or the other is a fireable offense. Do you stand by that?

[L54]

They could of course. But two ~5 year deals at $20M+ each, for a 33 yr old and a 35 yr old wouldn't be wise. Doubly so when Jays already have the Tulo and Martin contracts.

 

Nobody is really advocating to sign them both to extensions. Bautista will probably get extended, Edwin probably walks.

[fatcowxlive]

The only way they aren't here next year is if their options are not picked up. That's not happening.

 

Oh f*** I forgot about their 10/5 situations, nevermind lol. The only way their gone is if they're going to a contending team.

[Jimcanuck]

Nobody is really advocating to sign them both to extensions. Bautista will probably get extended, Edwin probably walks.

 

I'd go with the cheaper, younger guy rather than the older liability in the field.

[L54]

Of course. You said trading one or the other is a fireable offense. Do you stand by that?

 

I never said that. I said not having them on the team next year is a fireable offense. The only way they aren't here is if their options aren't picked up because they won't be traded. I'd be willing to make my first BJMB wager on this.

[L54]

I'd go with the cheaper, younger guy rather than the older liability in the field.

 

Bautista to 1B in 2017.

[L54]

Unless they agree to it.

 

Why would they agree to it? I know how 10/5 rights work. They will not agree to a trade before the season. Yes if the team is utter horse s*** they'll both accept a trade to a contender and the Jays will gladly move them, knowing they likely resign one of them with no comp pick attached in 2017.

[BTS]

Edwin wont get close to that. Jose will.

 

I think Edwin can expect 4/80 at the absolute least. He'll be entering his age-34 season. V-Mart just got 4/68 entering his age-36 season with a worse track record.

[Grant77]

Because they're going to hit decline really soon and we really don't have much coming up from the farm. I think we should keep retooling so we can keep contending, I don't know how many years Bautista has left in him to keep playing at the level he's at

 

 

 

Its the post season I have to!

 

 

 

My question is though, isn't it a bit short sighted to not move the older guys? I'm not talking impact on payroll, but trading Bautista's value now (which is only going to decrease year by year) for even greater value down the line? Tampa did it a lot (but for financial reasons) and they ended up with guys like Archer for guys like Garza. If we can make big deals like that, even if their values will truly kick in a season or two from the initial trade, wouldn't it be worth it?

 

I don't think it is. In my opinion, there are three main reasons to deal away veteran players:

 

1. Payroll constraints

2. Poor team performance

3. Bad farm system/drafting

 

We're a 90+ win playoff team with payroll space and a good player development system. Everything is set up nicely for us.

 

If we apply a regular decline curve to both guys, they still project for 10.5 WAR each in the next 3 seasons. We've already got Martin, Tulo, and maybe Donaldson on long term deals, so the benefit of those wins is immense. If you want to remain a playoff team, we'd just have to replace that production somewhere else, maybe at an even higher cost.

 

I guess what it boils down to for me is, where's the need? We have young pitching and some other resources to bolster it. I'm not against a long term outlook, but we can also keep winning in the process. I don't think that's a pipe dream.

[Dr. Dinger]

I think they'll sign twin 3 year deals this off-season, maybe something like 3/$50M each. I will put nothing past Anthopoulos when it comes to inking team-friendly extensions, and I think both players love this team/situation a lot.

[GD]

I think they'll sign twin 3 year deals this off-season, maybe something like 3/$50M each. I will put nothing past Anthopoulos when it comes to inking team-friendly extensions, and I think both players love this team/situation a lot.

 

I can't see them going that far below market value on their last major contracts, especially Edwin who relatively speaking hasn't made much money for someone of his calibre

[Krylian]

Nobody is really advocating to sign them both to extensions. Bautista will probably get extended, Edwin probably walks.

 

My gut tells me it's the other way around.

[fatcowxlive]

I don't think it is. In my opinion, there are three main reasons to deal away veteran players:

 

1. Payroll constraints

2. Poor team performance

3. Bad farm system/drafting

 

We're a 90+ win playoff team with payroll space and a good player development system. Everything is set up nicely for us.

 

If we apply a regular decline curve to both guys, they still project for 10.5 WAR each in the next 3 seasons. We've already got Martin, Tulo, and maybe Donaldson on long term deals, so the benefit of those wins is immense. If you want to remain a playoff team, we'd just have to replace that production somewhere else, maybe at an even higher cost.

 

I guess what it boils down to for me is, where's the need? We have young pitching and some other resources to bolster it. I'm not against a long term outlook, but we can also keep winning in the process. I don't think that's a pipe dream.

 

Very well put. I guess it also depends how well our front office can draft with a lower draft position.

 

Edit: no draft comp pick

[Jimcanuck]

Very well put. I guess it also depends how well our front office can draft with a lower draft position, although if we don't sign Price we do get a first round pick (hopefully)

 

i'm pretty sure the Jays don't get a comp for Price. could be wrong tho

[Laika]

I think they'll sign twin 3 year deals this off-season, maybe something like 3/$50M each. I will put nothing past Anthopoulos when it comes to inking team-friendly extensions, and I think both players love this team/situation a lot.

 

Yeah I think if you get them negotiating together, sort of, then the Jays could get a great deal. They are buddies and they probably want to stay together in Toronto, where everything came together for them and the team is finally good.

[fatcowxlive]

i'm pretty sure the Jays don't get a comp for Price. could be wrong tho

 

ah f***. I keep forgetting the new draft comp rules. We don't get s*** lol