GDT (2/5 if necessary): Rangers @ Blue Jays [Hamels vs Stroman] Oct 9 - 12:45 pm

[Stangstag]

Why can you see grass and dirt all of the way between his foot and the bag? Use some common sense man.

 

Umm... Because you can't? The shadows and kicked up dirt makes it hard to say. And it needs to be 100% CONCLUSIVE TO OVERTURN.

[pickoff22]

 

IMO this team needs one of those typical big innings they were used to getting in the regular season to get their confidence and groove back, to believe that they can overtake the control of any given game at any time again.

 

Exactly. And the pitchers we're facing in Arlington give us a great change for that. For whatever reason I also tend to think hitting the road may relieve a bit of pressure from them, being away from all the Toronto media and hype might help them relax.

[candymartinez]

100% CONCLUSIVE TO OVERTURN.

 

Is this a fact?

I know NFL accouncers always said that when replay was implemented, but is this really the rule for baseball replays?

 

I mean, who cares about the call on the field? Watch the video in slow motion and figure it out.

[Laika]

On the video that this picture is taken from it looks like his spike never really left the bag, judging from how the foot moves.

 

They only showed like 2 or 3 angles on the MLB Network broadcast. Had to be a lot more cameras. They didn't show anything from the OF looking in...

 

On another note, Hendriks is arguably the Jays' best reliever and it's pretty crazy and stupid that he was like the 6th RP out of the pen in a game that long.

 

Edwin missing that HR by about 5 feet was gut wrenching.

 

At least the Blue Jays match up very well against Perez and Holland. Holland has a 5.30 FIP this year and he's a lefty. But in the past he was a very good, well above average SP. Perez, left handed as well, is kind of the opposite - he's looked like garbage at certain points in his professional career despite a high prospect pedigree, but this year he's been decent (3.40 FIP). Them being left handed is the key.

 

If you think Toronto has a 65% chance of winning games 3 and 4, respectively, then they have a 42.25% chance of forcing game 5. If you think their chance to win is 60% in each game, then it's 36% for a game 5. I think those percentages to win are reasonable and I think that % chance range of forcing game 5 has to be a bit comforting to some people. Still a real chance!

[Stangstag]

Is this a fact?

I know NFL accouncers always said that when replay was implemented, but is this really the rule for baseball replays?

 

I mean, who cares about the call on the field? Watch the video in slow motion and figure it out.

 

That's the rule. The call isn't changed unless there is 100% evidence. There are 3 rulings: CONFIRMED, OVERTURNED, and INCONCLUSIVE. The first reviewed play in the 1st inning was ruled CONFIRMED, while this play with Odor was ruled INCONCLUSIVE, meaning the call stands.

[vdubmvp]

And it needs to be 100% CONCLUSIVE TO OVERTURN.

 

Yeah, I feel like this is something people often forget. I think you're someone who was going to the game, so you may have noticed how the in game announcer said the call on the field stands, whereas when they lost their first challenge, he said the call on the field was confirmed. So obviously they weren't saying he was clearly safe, but that it was inconclusive and therefore couldn't be overturned. Had we gotten the call on the field in the first place and the Rangers challenged, maybe it goes our way then.

[Laika]

Here is the video: http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v520880083/textor-gm2-odor-slides-back-into-second-safely/?query=Odor

 

Skip to 2:56 for the relevant angle.

2:58 is the image posted above where it looks like his foot is off.

Play it from there, 2:58-3:02, and you will see his spike become disengaged from the edge of the bag, causing his foot to slide down. But his spike seems to just slide down the side of the bag without actually falling away from the base entirely, and the sole of his cleat then comes in contact with the base.

 

At 2:58 his spike is the only part of his cleat touching the base, which explains the visual gap between hit show and the base, because the spike adds depth. But he's still in contact with it.

 

The motion of his foot during this slow-motion replay makes it fairly clear that he never lost contact. The way his foot plops down after 2:58 makes it obvious at 2:58 that his spike is actually on the bag, propping up the foot.

 

To say anything else is disingenuous. If a picture says 1000 words, then what's a video worth?

[CJ-Freeway]

Were any of you guys sitting in the 130 section or near it?

[BigCecil]

were any of you guys sitting in the 130 section or near it?

 

128 r

[Laika]

Not conclusive at all. I don't know why we're still having this conversation.

 

It needs to be conclusive.

 

It needs to be conclusive.

 

It needs to be conclusive.

 

Yeah, that's the standard of proof for overturning a call.

 

But even if the replay process had a lower standard of proof, I think you could still call him safe.

[candymartinez]

Here is the video: http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v520880083/textor-gm2-odor-slides-back-into-second-safely/?query=Odor

 

Skip to 2:56 for the relevant angle.

2:58 is the image posted above where it looks like his foot is off.

Play it from there, 2:58-3:02, and you will see his spike become disengaged from the edge of the bag, causing his foot to slide down. But his spike seems to just slide down the side of the bag without actually falling away from the base entirely, and the sole of his cleat then comes in contact with the base.

 

At 2:58 his spike is the only part of his cleat touching the base, which explains the visual gap between hit show and the base, because the spike adds depth. But he's still in contact with it.

 

The motion of his foot during this slow-motion replay makes it fairly clear that he never lost contact. The way his foot plops down after 2:58 makes it obvious at 2:58 that his spike is actually on the bag, propping up the foot.

 

To say anything else is disingenuous. If a picture says 1000 words, then what's a video worth?

 

I've had my eyes tested in the past year. They are good. I don't know what you are seeing. He's clearly out. His foot came off the bag.

[The duff man]

It is conclusive. Now if the standard is that you need to SEE it, that is a different question. In the video linked, only the last closeup shows what happens.

 

His foot comes off. It falls down and lies flat on the side of his foot against the dirt. His foot would not move like that if the spikes were still in contact with the bag. Then he pushes his foot back against the bag. Why? Because he is not touching it.

 

If he was touching, he wouldnt move...just lie there with the side of his foot on the dirt and spikes touching the bag.

 

Conclusive....but you cant actually see for certain if the SPIKES are touching the whole time or not.

 

Another video that is a bit better.

 

http://youtu.be/qFmdvnsF8SI

[vdubmvp]

Were any of you guys sitting in the 130 section or near it?

 

No, I was in 243.

[The duff man]

The front part of his foot actually bounces off when the side of the foot hits the dirt. Much easier to see how the foot moves at full speed from that one view. The still shot shows nothing.

[vdubmvp]

One guy wanted to get the wave going and was shut down pretty hard by several people. I've never had people (other than friends and family) on my side about the wave before, so that was a pretty great moment.

[KingKat]

Here is the video: http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v520880083/textor-gm2-odor-slides-back-into-second-safely/?query=Odor

 

Skip to 2:56 for the relevant angle.

2:58 is the image posted above where it looks like his foot is off.

Play it from there, 2:58-3:02, and you will see his spike become disengaged from the edge of the bag, causing his foot to slide down. But his spike seems to just slide down the side of the bag without actually falling away from the base entirely, and the sole of his cleat then comes in contact with the base.

 

At 2:58 his spike is the only part of his cleat touching the base, which explains the visual gap between hit show and the base, because the spike adds depth. But he's still in contact with it.

 

The motion of his foot during this slow-motion replay makes it fairly clear that he never lost contact. The way his foot plops down after 2:58 makes it obvious at 2:58 that his spike is actually on the bag, propping up the foot.

 

To say anything else is disingenuous. If a picture says 1000 words, then what's a video worth?

 

Sorry but I don't see that at all. I see A LOT of movement and it just seems very improbable that contact was never lost. The play wasn't confirmed and for good reason. It's inconclusive both ways.

[Laika]

It is conclusive. Now if the standard is that you need to SEE it, that is a different question. In the video linked, only the last closeup shows what happens.

 

His foot comes off. It falls down and lies flat on the side of his foot against the dirt. His foot would not move like that if the spikes were still in contact with the bag. Then he pushes his foot back against the bag. Why? Because he is not touching it.

 

If he was touching, he wouldnt move...just lie there with the side of his foot on the dirt and spikes touching the bag.

 

Conclusive....but you cant actually see for certain if the SPIKES are touching the whole time or not.

 

Another video that is a bit better.

 

http://youtu.be/qFmdvnsF8SI

 

His foot doesn't slide back to the bag at all - it just slides along the far side of the bag. It's an illusion caused by the angle. This is obvious from 0:16-0:20 in your link. If his foot ever came off the bag and had to slide back to it, it would be obvious from that angle. The viewing angle at 0:16-0:20 is almost parallel to the edge of the bag that Odor supposedly lost contact with, but no gap is visible. It just seems like his foot slides along the edge. Both angles viewed in conjunction make it reasonably clear that he never lost contact.

[Laika]

I'm not so sure that you can say conclusively that his spike never lost contact. I may very well have briefly. You certainly can't see it. The larger point is that it's inconclusive (one way or another really).

 

I

 

I didn't want to make it seem absolute. Maybe my word choice wasn't great. BUT, on a balance of probabilities, I would be forced to say that he was probably safe and in fact he never lost contact with the bag.

[The duff man]

His foot doesn't slide back to the bag at all - it just slides along the far side of the bag. It's an illusion caused by the angle. This is obvious from 0:16-0:20 in your link. If his foot ever came off the bag and had to slide back to it, it would be obvious from that angle. The viewing angle at 0:16-0:20 is almost parallel to the edge of the bag that Odor supposedly lost contact with, but no gap is visible. It just seems like his foot slides along the edge. Both angles viewed in conjunction make it reasonably clear that he never lost contact.

 

The bounce at beginning and his leg movement at end refute your point but we can just disagree and cheer for game 3.

[Laika]

The bounce at beginning and his leg movement at end refute your point but we can just disagree and cheer for game 3.

 

You can't say my point is refuted and then say let's agree to disagree. That's dirty forum pool, bro.

 

You're all blind homers!

[BTS]

He might be out, but the call on the field wasn't egregious, and there isn't conclusive evidence to have the call overturned. I hope this doesn't turn into years of 'MLB hates Canada' whining.

[The duff man]

You can't say my point is refuted and then say let's agree to disagree. That's dirty forum pool, bro.

 

You're all blind homers!

 

Well I agree with you that the people saying they can SEE the spikes lose contact are blind

[thatoneguy]

He might be out, but the call on the field wasn't egregious, and there isn't conclusive evidence to have the call overturned. I hope this doesn't turn into years of 'MLB hates Canada' whining.

 

If it hits Bob Davidson status I'll laugh f***ing hard.

[TheHurl]

Not sure how I missed this gem.

 

[billydak1d]

'cause they're not half as good as you thought they were boy....and now they're finally up against a decent team they're starting to come to the same realization as well.

[vdubmvp]

'cause they're not half as good as you thought they were man....

 

What exactly are you responding to here?

[labadee]

He probably was out, HOWEVER i certainly wouldn't bet my life on it that he was. It's not 100% clear that the white you see in the pic is his shoe or the actual bag because there's a chance that the shadow is obscuring the contour of the base. You cannot overturn a call unless there's 100% definitive proof. Had the ump called him out, and the rangers challenged, the call wouldve been upheld. There's no need to call anyone a troll, blind etc. That's just emotional keyboard warrior-ing.

 

Yes we're all upset by what happened, but it should never have come down to that anyways. How is it that the best offense in the league came up dry for the last half of the game? This call should also not overshadow that inexcusable first inning. This would be a distraction to the bigger issue. John Gibbons was right when he didn't put the loss to that call. Jays had their chances, but we didn't put them away.

 

If you want a conspiracy theory, you're better off asking why we can't control our own dome. The game wouldve been done had we been able to open the roof. But anyways, on to Texas. Time to give them a taste of their own medicine.

 

edit: Btw I voted 'yes' he was out, but if there was an option to select 'yes, but insufficient evidence to over rule the call on the field', i wouldve chosen that

[billydak1d]

I just got selected to join the FBI so my eyes have to be in the top 5% of best possible vision in the world....I don't know what eye doctor you're seeing (or not seeing, no pun intended), but he's clearly safe....let's be honest here dud

[BTS]

'cause they're not half as good as you thought they were boy....and now they're finally up against a decent team they're starting to come to the same realization as well.

 

No, that's not what's happening at all. They are as good as people thought they were. Good teams sometimes lose games to mediocre teams. Playoffs are a crapshoot.

[Trouba95]

I just got selected to join the FBI so my eyes have to be in the top 5% of best possible vision in the world....I don't know what eye doctor you're seeing (or not seeing, no pun intended), but he's clearly safe....let's be honest here dud

 

Ban.